Staff Complaint - QueenofYugoslavia

[Kaed]

BYOND Key: Kaedwuff

Staff BYOND Key: QueenofYugoslavia

Game ID: bWE-am1J

Reason for complaint: I came across and officer being beaten to death in the library by a juggernaut (which the officer killed before collapsing) and took a few (wildly missed) shots at the wizard as they ran off with his body. Cue 15 minutes of this mod arguing with me that as a captain I should never be engaging antagonists when there was an ERT (which had not even docked yet) or security (most of which were dead, including the one literally dying in front of me) on station. I was not in any reasonable amount of risk shooting at a fleeing aggressor, nor did I pursue them beyond them leaving my sight. They repeatedly ignored my explanations of the situation to force this hardline opinion on captain behavior on me, then placed a warning on as seen below.

Evidence/logs/etc:

I really, really don't want to capture images of all the PMs over 15 minutes of this, so please just check the logs.

Additional remarks: The most polite thing I can say about this experience is that it was incredibly pushy and unprofessional, and as the mod in question seems to have trouble even spelling I have deep concerns about their fit for this position.

Edited October 3, 2018 by Guest

[Lady Fowl]

Kaedwuff/(Himari Kawerii)(?) (PP) (VV) (SM) (JMP) (CA)
 to Kaedwuff/(Himari Kawerii)(?) (JOIN) (CLOSE): Do you got a moment? 

   [Player PM] Kaedwuff/(Himari Kawerii)(?) (JOIN) (CLOSE): what now I'm in the middle of stuff 

     to Kaedwuff/(Himari Kawerii)(?) (JOIN) (CLOSE): Why as a Captain with two other security officers and a ERT inbound, attackign a juggernaut (?) 

     [Player PM] Kaedwuff/(Himari Kawerii)(?) (JOIN) (CLOSE): I'm on the other side of a window from it, and walked in to see the fight. I didn't even attack the juggernaut, (?) I just firedsome potshots at the wizard through a window 

      to Kaedwuff/(Himari Kawerii)(?) (JOIN) (CLOSE): Ok but why is a captain engaging or tossing potshots at all 

        [Player PM] Kaedwuff/(Himari Kawerii)(?) (JOIN) (CLOSE): Because I came across crew members in danger and I'm holding a weapon? 
        to Kaedwuff/(Himari Kawerii)(?) (JOIN) (CLOSE): You have two security members and a ERT coming. So again, why as a Captain are you directly engagign antags instead of directing security or aiding ert with it
        [Player PM] Kaedwuff/(Himari Kawerii)(?) (JOIN) (CLOSE): Look, I just told you that I came across a fight in action and tried to assist. There isn't some teamwork in place between me and security to take out the bad guys, I just happened across them, and tried to help, because I was in a safe vantage point to try. 
        [Player PM] Kaedwuff/(Himari Kawerii)(?) (JOIN) (CLOSE): I'm not going to bloody run away screaming when an officer (?) is being beaten to death and I have a way to help
        to Kaedwuff/(Himari Kawerii)(?) (JOIN) (CLOSE): Captains are given a weapon for self defense, by taking"potshots" you are actively engaging antags instead of defending yourself
        to Kaedwuff/(Himari Kawerii)(?) (JOIN) (CLOSE): You have security for a reason and ERT for a bigger reason
        [Player PM] Kaedwuff/(Himari Kawerii)(?) (JOIN) (CLOSE): Look, I don't particularly appreciate you telling me how to play my character here. There is no rule in place that says I'm not allowed to be the least bit heroic as a captain. Again, I repeat, I did not collabrate with security, I just came across someone in trouble and tried to help, because I was not in direct danger on the other side of a window.
        to Kaedwuff/(Himari Kawerii)(?) (JOIN) (CLOSE): Right but thats actively breakign any escalation of conflict on your part. Even as a assistant if you see somebody being beat by a magicla creature and a guy whos been blowing stuff up, are you going to rush into the fight as a sane and well balanece char?
        [Player PM] Kaedwuff/(Himari Kawerii)(?) (JOIN) (CLOSE): The 'magical creature' has been in the round for about 45 minutes now and we're well aware of it's existance, it's not a new or scary thing. None of us are even treating this all as magic, it's just unknown tech
         to Kaedwuff/(Himari Kawerii)(?) (JOIN) (CLOSE): What im saying is, well balenced characters dont rush into situations like that. Proper behavior for thisd situation is retreat back and let the other officer (?) handle it or inform ERT, and im sure your aware of this
         [Player PM] Kaedwuff/(Himari Kawerii)(?) (JOIN) (CLOSE): I think I'm about done arguing this with you, if this continues I will probably start being rude. I do not agree with your assessment of the situation, and am growing increasingly irritated that this conversation has drawn on so long for what amounts to firing a few missed shots at a fleeing wizard.
         to Kaedwuff/(Himari Kawerii)(?) (JOIN) (CLOSE): Im leaving it at this. Captains shouldnt be engaging themselfs into conflict like this especialy with ERT on hand and another security member. You even admit he was fleeing and fired anyways. The shooting at him isnt justifyable and should be avoided in the future please. It escalated with the security emmber but you were not involved in the situation and shooting wasnt really valid at all. I will be leaving this as a warning, please avoid this in the future. 

         to Kaedwuff/(Himari Kawerii)(?) (JOIN) (CLOSE): I apologize however if i came off as pushy or such with my response's as its quite late but my point still stands. Enjoy the rest fo your round!

 

 

Im nice to just about everybody I deal with and was very polite to you nor do I hold anything against you but I think attempting to attack me as pushy or un-professional or poke at my English abilities isn't really warranted. Regardless of this, I spoke to Garn on the issue already and would like [mention]Coalf[/mention] and [mention]Datamatt[/mention] to handle this as Command Staff leads

[Kaed]

I'm also not sure that my looc venting at a nearby player while I sat in the captain's office waiting for the ERT to resolve things is particularly relevant to the complaint in question, which strictly involves us, but you decided to include those, so here we are.

There was neither security in the immediate vicinity, nor was I directly in danger, which was actively the content of your warning. I was on the other side of a window, firing a laser at a wizard dragging a wounded officer away.

I explained this to you several times, and you just kept telling me there is no reason ever for a captain to attack an antagonist, which is tacitly untrue, along with dredging up irrelevant arguments like that my character was unbalanced for not being afraid of a juggernaut which had just been destroyed by the wounded officer. This is why I am annoyed with you.

Edited October 3, 2018 by Guest

[Lady Fowl]

I'm also not sure that my looc venting at a nearby player while I sat in the captain's office waiting for the ERT to resolve things is particularly relevant to the complaint in question, which strictly involves us, but you decided to include those, so here we are.

There was neither security in the immediate vicinity, nor was I directly in danger, which was actively the content of your warning. I was on the other side of a window, firing a laser at a wizard dragging a wounded officer away.

I explained this to you several times, and you just kept telling me there is no reason ever for a captain to attack an antagonist, which is tacitly untrue. This is why I am annoyed with you.

 

If the wizard was directly attacking you, you would be in the right but he wasnt engaging you at all.

[Kaed]

If the wizard was directly attacking you, you would be in the right but he wasnt engaging you at all.

 

Once again, he was trying to kill one of my officers in front of me, and no one else was was around to help. I am well within my rights to make the bare minimum effort of shooting at them through a window as they run off. This is just needlessly trying to tie my hands on an (apparently) not clearly understood principle. Captains are not held to a strict protocol of nonviolence except when directly attacked, they just aren't supposed to risk their lives needlessly. There was no active risk to me while I shot at them, because, once again, they were fleeing while dragging the officer away.

Anyway, it's clear at this point that one of us is not grasping the situation (and obviously we both think it's the other person) so I'll wait until someone else steps in.

[Coalf]

We will investigate the issue, providing any addittional proof would be very helpful.

[Kaed]

We will investigate the issue, providing any addittional proof would be very helpful.

 

I'm not sure what proof I can provide. I admit I don't know the full extent of the logs, but I think they only record when you hit something with a weapon, or when something explodes. I did not manage to hit the wizard once, so I'm not sure that the logs will even show when I fired my weapon.

[Coalf]

Alright, I'll speak to the Whitelist Team to see if this is a whitelist or a general issue (if it is an issue in the first place).

Then I'll gather some evidence and verdict should come at the end of this week. If any of you think of something, tell me.

[Pratepresidenten]

Hello, AI here!

From my point of view, emptying your gun into the antag at that point was not unreasonable at all. The round had progressed to the point where they had to be lethally captured or killed, as they posessed immensely destructive weaponry.

As a Captain, you shouldnt put yourself in harms way, which you did on a few occations. I did tell you to step away a few times as there was severe danger. This itself was a little problematic, but not critical.

Now as for the argument that the Captain should rely on the ISD and ERT to do the work.

At the point where the ahelps went down:

Officer 1: Died to reading the scroll

Officer 2: Obliterated by fireballs in the brig + sharded/turned to a juggernaut

Officer 3: Cornered and trapped in the crusher maintenance room.

Officer 4: Barely conscious after being trashed by the juggernaut. (Captain witnessed)

ERT: Hadnt even docked yet iirc.

As I see it, there was no fault to the Captain's choice to discharge their firearm in an attempt to injure the wiz and have the one and only officer left saved. You have a duty to your station and crew, not just stand by idly while they get destroyed.

[Kaed]

As a Captain, you shouldnt put yourself in harms way, which you did on a few occations. I did tell you to step away a few times as there was severe danger. This itself was a little problematic, but not critical.

 

Most of those times was me sort of rubbernecking what was going on from a distance through binoculars and bailing the moment the wizard started heading my direction, I think the one time I actively put myself in danger was when I tried to be clever and put a locker over the crusher ladder when I thought they were down it on the lower level (they weren't), and I skedaddled the moment they saw me. None of those were really 'engaging' the antag, more spying and one attempt to block an egress that didn't work. Keep in mind I don't always see the danger you see as an AI, and have limited vantage points.

[Coalf]

Due to surfaced evidence and the nature of the emergency. This warning will be nullified and removed.

Reasoning is as thus:

While the captain role is extremely important and the captain should actively try not to engage antags when unnecessary. This was one of those situations where it was necessary. It is important to keep in mind that the captain HAS a gun and HAS the abillity to get more guns.

As was apparent from evidence security was either crippled or dead and the ERT was still on their way. The captain while taking perhaps a few unnecessary risks (per character discretion) was within his right to open fire at that moment.

This thread will be locked and archived in 24 hours.

[Coalf]

Locking and archiving.