Jamison Stamos (the Changeling)

[EvilBrage]

BYOND Key: EvilBrage

Player Byond Key: Mirkoloio

Reason for complaint: Powergaming as a changeling, exploiting a bug

Approximate Date/Time: Ongoing (2/2/15, 6:00pm)

In short, he has been transforming monkeys into humans via use of the sting that transforms people into other people. This works by modifying all of an individual's structural and unique enzymes (a la genetics) to turn them into the person in question. This also means monkeys can be turned into humans and harvested for genomes - a bug that Mirk exploited in order to gain access to the highest tier of changeling stings used on multiple crew. As of right now, there have been about eleven "fake" corpses located.

[Susan]

I'd also like to state he used death stings on two people to my knowledge, which is the most difficult changeling power to acquire and basically something you cannot mitigate.

[Thundy]

So, when I play ling, I usually try to infiltrate genetics and create proto human's to feast on in the beginning. After gathering enough power to get some cool abilities, I begin trying to take down human crew. Not sure if I completely understand what is happening in this case but wouldn't it be pretty much the same thing if they are changing monkeys into humans and having a good nibble?

[ZipZero]

I'd also like to state he used death stings on two people to my knowledge, which is the most difficult changeling power to acquire and basically something you cannot mitigate.

Three, I think, but I did manage to save one of them.

But yeah, ganky ling with an OP sting. Which is a problem I've seen a lot, playing as a doctor during changeling rounds, and having to drag a continuous stream of people from the brig to medical after they manage to capture a ling.

 

So, when I play ling, I usually try to infiltrate genetics and create proto human's to feast on in the beginning. After gathering enough power to get some cool abilities, I begin trying to take down human crew. Not sure if I completely understand what is happening in this case but wouldn't it be pretty much the same thing if they are changing monkeys into humans and having a good nibble?

See, this is a problem with a lot of changeling rounds. Remember, as an antagonist, your goal is not to win, but to provide interesting RP. If your only real interaction with the crew is spamming deathstings on anyone in the same room as you, you are not doing your job. A lot of the time, from what I see, a changeling absorbs all of the monkeys in genetics, gets caught, then proceeds to kill anyone who gets near them.

As for the complaint itself, nothing about their actions that round really stands out among the many changelings I've seen doing the same thing, apart from the potential bug exploit.

[Thundy]

Never used death sting. As in, ever. I'd much rather use the hallucinogen sting and watch security run around like idiots personally. I usually try to play a non violent ling and proto human's seemed like the only way I could do so in a viable and believable way. You're right zero, the fun must be had.

[mirkoloio]

Good Morning,

First off, I do not think that the transformation sting thing is a bug. It is called /transformation/ sting for a reason.

2nd, I used the deathsting, but did not spam it on people close to me. I used it, yes, but within reason. Like, the warden tried to implant me with an implant I did not know what it is. I said no, they continued, so bam, Stinged.

Then, As you guys repeadeatedly kept unleashing laserstorms on me it was kinda justified if I had killed /all/ of you.

And another time I used the sting was when I escaped from you guys, wich worked with a hilarious end.

I hope I explained things good as of now.

[Guest]

So, let me get this straight.

Using your antag powers after getting arrested to get away is the foulest most dreadful form of powergaming and must be banned on sight?

When someone is shooting your character with lethals, if your response is to use lethal force to fight back (as an antagonist) then you're powergaming?

If antags can't even fight back against the security pursuing them, why even have antags?I mean it's not like they're actually allowed to harm you, right?

[EvilBrage]

First off, I do not think that the transformation sting thing is a bug. It is called /transformation/ sting for a reason.

 

It also has a description that you had access to, which is as follows:

 

Transformation Sting

The changeling injects a retrovirus that forces their human victim to transform into another.

 

Note that it states transforming a human victim into another, and it says this very plainly. Using genetics to create humans is well and good, but you abused an oversight in the way the changeling sting was scripted in order to kill upwards of 10 "fake" humans for the sole purpose of powergaming and gaining access to powers. That is not okay - especially considering your tendency to spam everything you've got when you're in a corner and things don't go your way, which you were indeed doing.

By the end of the round, the entire security force was dead, including the IPC's that really shouldn't have been affected by the sting to begin with. Killing people is well and good, but just because an admin has the capability to spawn a pulse rifle doesn't mean it's fair when they gun you down with it; you'd be outraged.

[mirkoloio]

Well. IN case you did not notice. I was /gibbed/ shortly after I stinged Mr. Avalon. So, It was not really my fault everyone died. I had some on my card, but by far not all. Still, If you try to incinerate a Changeling you got to count with being stung and eventually killed. The antag description does not say "you are securitys bitch and have to die and may not sting anyone at all even if they are going to incinerate you"

Edit: Also, if the sting says "..injects humans with retrovirus..." Why am I allowed to Sting Tajara and Unathi and so on then and not monkeys/farwa/neaera/stok? They are not human last I checked. And the feeding on protohumans was due to my companion Kaipov needing help. I was gathering strength to bust him out wich failed due to him ceasing communications then. ((I know the Edit sounds silly, but hey.))

[Chaznoodles]

Personally, I really don't see using the transformation sting on monkeys as powergaming. It's purpose is to transform. It allows the antagonist access to more stings which can help further the round, and also avoids taking other players out of the round for an extended duration. Considering lethal force had been used against Stamos, it's well within his rights as a round antagonist to move to a more serious method of staying alive and continuing the roleplay.

I'm more concerned about the guy who randomly fed Mirk a monkey cube, to be honest.

[Susan]

Lethal force was used on Stamos after he grew an arm and impaled the warden to death. We didn't instigate shit. We responded to a killer shapeshifting maniac with laser blasts after he had already killed someone.

My problem arises that, if you can just eat monkey people, why can't you eat SSDs? Messing with SSDs is not allowed because it's unsportsmanlike, there's no challenge, it's not fair to the player to wake up stuffed in some corner of maintenance without a care. And yet, just grinding out monkeys like a factory is perfectly okay why...? 'Add to the round' my ass. There's no challenge here either. Half of the shit that happened wouldn't have, IE security being killed by an overpowered instakill mechanic, if Stamos hadn't fire extinguisher-monkeycube'd his way to victory. Death sting is supposed to be a late game tool for changelings, not something you get in the first ten minutes of the round.

Allowing changelings to just absorb monkeys to get all the powers is the epitome of powergaming as far as I'm concerned. Do they eat monkeys for roleplay? No, they do it to unlock powers so they can have an even bigger advantage over every else. That is the literal definition of powergaming, and the pathetic justification of 'add to the round' is so flimsy because more than half of the changeling abilities exist to help them eat people, so I fail to see how annoying, abusable stings like transform, hallucination, and instakill add anything.

You want to know how they're used? We catch a changeling and then he transform stings anyone who gets close to him and their round is forever ruined because now they're entirely someone else with literally no way to reverse it, and that's if you're lucky. Spam hallucination stings and instakill stings too, because why not. They aren't used to 'add' to the round, they are used to inflict grief upon other players and have not been legitimately obtained. Monkey eating needs to be something punishment worthy, as it is powergaming.

[Guest Menown]

Snip.

 

I noticed you said something during the round about Negating all RP for Jamison once he was monkey-cubed. During the incident in the brig (I was the Warden,) I was murdered with an impalement or something while trying to place a tracking implant in Jamison. I was then out of the round for about an hour, as we had no geneticist to revive me. I didn't see you defending me getting murdered or losing all of my chance for any RP.

Can I ask why?

[mirkoloio]

As said. I impaled the warden after I told her to relase me AND after I told her to /not/ implant me wich she continued to do regardless of my warning. And yeah, Would you rather have me kill loads of people and send em to the ghostworld grumbling about their death? Or have me eat some monkeys and let people have their (E)RP?

And as far as I know no where it is written that I /have/ to take challenges as a Antag. Because, why hard when you can do it simple and easy? I mean, a challenge would be to rid the station of human life, no? That's what Lings do anyway, eat humans.

[Chaznoodles]

My problem arises that, if you can just eat monkey people, why can't you eat SSDs?

 

Because SSDs are players who have a chance of cooming back to the round. That's why we don't touch them. Please stop being rude, it's not pleasant to read.

 

Snip.

 

I noticed you said something during the round about Negating all RP for Jamison once he was monkey-cubed. During the incident in the brig (I was the Warden,) I was murdered with an impalement or something while trying to place a tracking implant in Jamison. I was then out of the round for about an hour, as we had no geneticist to revive me. I didn't see you defending me getting murdered or losing all of my chance for any RP.

Can I ask why?

 

I said this because, as a round antagonist, they're there to create conflict and roleplay. I'm concerned about this issue because there was absolute zero reaction shown to someone exploding in a shower of gore due to a monkey inside them, as well as the seemingly random feeding of the cube. There's also a difference between a crewmember, a non-antag removing someone permanently from the round, and an antagonist doing it.

[Guest Menown]

Snip pt 2

 

So you're saying it's okay for antagonists to remove people from the round, effectively ruining all RP for somebody, because they're an antagonist. But it's not okay for somebody, a non-antagonist to take the antagonist out of the round, because it would ruin the antagonist's RP? So what is the point of having security, or the medical bay? If antags are not to be touched, due to the possibility of ruining their ability to "create conflict," then why can we arrest them, or treat injuries they cause?

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Snip pt 2

 

So you're saying it's okay for antagonists to remove people from the round, effectively ruining all RP for somebody, because they're an antagonist.

Yes, if it's done in a way that follows the rules. Dying isn't the end of the game; you have respawns or next round to come back.

 

But it's not okay for somebody, a non-antagonist to take the antagonist out of the round, because it would ruin the antagonist's RP?

No. They can do that, if they do it in a fair way that follows the rules.... And can also overpower the antagonist. You tried, and you failed.

But this is a separate complaint. The issue is the changing and absorption of monkeys into protohumans, which to be honest I thought was a feature.

[K0NFL1QT]

I didn't play that round, but I was ghosted the whole time. I was watching the other changeling fight in Virology, before he got robusted and I found Jamison huffing monkeys in an emergency closet. I think one of your victims was a player, and the rest were protohumans. All eleven of them were stuffed in one single firecloset. I don't know what other powers you got, but you seemed to rush right for deathsting. Now, those bodies were found because you left pools of blood on the floor and you left forensic evidence all over them that lead to Stamos as the only possibility. Officers came for you. You didn't try to escape by using any other powers, you just deathstung the officers, and then you deathstung the Warden.

Yes, transform sting works on monkeys. Yes, you can grow them and eat them. It's allowed by the code, whether it's technically a bug or not. But it's still powergaming to devour several of them right at the start of the round to boost your changeling points.

There was no interesting RP that resulted from this, only a really powerful changeling deathstinging anyone stupid enough to get close. You didn't lure anyone into being alone with you, then defeat them. You chose a route of progression that specifically impacted no players while simultaneously gave you all the best changeling powers to play with. Practically the definition of powergaming.

[Guest Menown]

Snip pt 3: The Jackbootening

 

I personally don't care about being killed, nor the fact that Mirk had powergamed. I only care about the fact that Chaz was calling out a scientist on an escalation of force, when Mirk had escalated first.

I didn't attempt to overpower Jamison. We had him buckled into a chair, in a straight jacket. He was overpowered. But due to mechanics, he was able to impale me with a tail or something. I honestly don't care about that.

As for the monkeys, I'd say that it's nothing unsimilar to how geneticists farm monkeys to murder, so I don't see an issue there. Even when Geneticilings or Vampists do it, most of us talk shit about them in Dsay about powergaming anyway, which it is. I however, don't like a moderator calling out non-antags on responding with the same focus of powergaming that the antag did.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Snip pt 3: The Jackbootening

 

Snip Snap

 

That's fair, then. I misunderstood the focus of your post.

[EvilBrage]

Allowing changelings to just absorb monkeys to get all the powers is the epitome of powergaming as far as I'm concerned. Do they eat monkeys for roleplay? No, they do it to unlock powers so they can have an even bigger advantage over every else. That is the literal definition of powergaming, and the pathetic justification of 'add to the round' is so flimsy because more than half of the changeling abilities exist to help them eat people, so I fail to see how annoying, abusable stings like transform, hallucination, and instakill add anything.

You want to know how they're used? We catch a changeling and then he transform stings anyone who gets close to him and their round is forever ruined because now they're entirely someone else with literally no way to reverse it, and that's if you're lucky. Spam hallucination stings and instakill stings too, because why not. They aren't used to 'add' to the round, they are used to inflict grief upon other players and have not been legitimately obtained. Monkey eating needs to be something punishment worthy, as it is powergaming.

 

Yes, transform sting works on monkeys. Yes, you can grow them and eat them. It's allowed by the code, whether it's technically a bug or not. But it's still powergaming to devour several of them right at the start of the round to boost your changeling points. There was no interesting RP that resulted from this, only a really powerful changeling deathstinging anyone stupid enough to get close. You didn't lure anyone into being alone with you, then defeat them. You chose a route of progression that specifically impacted no players while simultaneously gave you all the best changeling powers to play with. Practically the definition of powergaming.

 

These really capture the crux of the issue, that the only thing that happened was that Stamos was able to spam more powerful (and fatal) stings once he was captured; the ordinary ones are annoying enough. What you did added absolutely nothing to the round, and you're trying to play the innocent victim card while also stating "well it wasn't going my way so I used my powers." How did you expect security to react after killing several of them? Try to negotiate with you? If anything, your powergaming detracted from the round in a big way, ergo my complaint against you and the bug you abused to ruin what could have been an interesting round.

[Guest]

I got rek'd. P-please ban this sick filth

 

So, your idea of how the round should have gone is immediately stuncuffing Stamos, shoving him in a straightjacket, tossing him in the permabrig with an implant and leaving him to SSD?

You picked a fight with the antag unprepared, you got wrecked.Unless Mirk hunted down random civillians and deathstung them for shits and giggles, I don't see the reason for this complaint. You tried to kill Stamos, Stamos tried to kill you. He survived, you didn't. If you cant handle losing, play on Hippy or Goon for a while to sharpen your robusting skills.

If anything, blame Bay for removing paralysis stings, which would have allowed Mirk to stun you and get away instead of murdering you.

[Skull132]

Jumping in with a personal opinion, and not that of the Staff's final response (Doomberg and Jennalele are in charge of that).

Looking at the complaint, I dooon't see an issue with the harmstinging. Antag is trapped, sees himself at threat of a loyalty or a tracking implant, and chooses to use a tool at his disposal to attempt escape. Yeah, that's how it goes. In the middle of a firefight, the antag finds a way to close distance and neutralize another opponent. Done. Yeah, players will be out of the round because of it, but that's how the cookie crumbles, and conflict without actual consequences is horribly boring and mundane.

The useage of monkeys is another thing. Personally, I wouldn't do it just because eh, but I can see the reason behind it. So, dunno.

[Guest]

Unless their method of RPing it is abhorrent or nonexistent, and from the round I saw, I saw no powergaming nor murderboning. Mirk did not kill until his escalation of force was absolutely necessary, as Skull said above, when he was at risk for loyalty implantation.

And then there's this detail.

 

Yeah, players will be out of the round because of it, but that's how the cookie crumbles, and conflict without actual consequences is horribly boring and mundane.

 

Can I just say that the way people talk about antags, it seems like the most inane thing to complain about, people getting killed? Isn't that what this game is about? The chaos? Sure, we have a Heavy RP tag slapped onto our server, but the expectation is to have meaningful interaction while doing it, not win evury rund an' erp with the mudbay nirses in culubrution o' robistniss.

You are going to encounter situations where you are going to die and there is no way out of it. That is the way games work, and you should not be attempting to take the very spirit out of the game, the controlled chaos that needs to be fostered in order for people to actually find enjoyment in our little corner of the SS13 community.

My take on this complaint? Do nothing about it. Yes, Mirk ranked up to deathsting in less than a half-hour and only absorbed one person using monkey cubes, this could've been read as bad sportsmanship or laziness.

As opposed to, say, blatant murderboning with little to no reasoning or escalation before the first hour or two?...

If the monkeycube farming thing becomes an issue, then it'll be curbed. For now: it is not an issue. I say do nothing about it. Mirk was also in the right to kill. Do nothing about it.

[Susan]

Looking at the complaint, I dooon't see an issue with the harmstinging. Antag is trapped, sees himself at threat of a loyalty or a tracking implant, and chooses to use a tool at his disposal to attempt escape.

 

No. Wrong. He did not ever attempt escape. The warden was merely trying to implant him and then he immediately responded by deathstinging her and then following it up with "I'll cooperate". He did not use his insta-kill ability to create roleplay, or try to escape, he did it for no reason other than to just murder Meowy because... why? We had him in cuffs. We all had guns. There was no way he was going to get out of there, so why bother? It was a simple tracking implant, and he didn't even try to get out in the ensuing chaos. He sat there and said "I'll cooperate." after impaling the warden. There was no smart way to do this.

 

The useage of monkeys is another thing. Personally, I wouldn't do it just because eh, but I can see the reason behind it. So, dunno.

 

The fact that you as a staff member hold this opinion, and as one of the highest ranked staff members, is troubling to me. You can see the reason behind it? What's that supposed to mean? How can you even attempt to justify this behavior? It is in the same vein as vampires draining monkey people to spam bats and inflate their blood count, or cultists summoning Nar-Sie entirely using ghosts. It's ridiculous, it is powergaming, the entire point is to give yourself a supreme advantage over other players with zero interaction and zero roleplay, pretty much the same as eating SSDs. And, since we're on that point...

 

As opposed to, say, blatant murderboning with little to no reasoning or escalation before the first hour or two?...

 

This isn't a justification. I don't believe he was eating monkeys out of the goodness of his heart because he did not hesitate to death sting several people, so attempting to explain it as 'well at least he didn't eat actual people right guys' is so full of shit considering his behavior and his use of death sting. I don't even believe this argument should be considered; the problem is the changeling gamemode it self, which is not tooled for roleplay but is centered around killing as many people as you can until the station is a desolate wasteland, which is why the stings are costly, because they expect you to go after the entire station and eat them all. It is a gamemode inherited from light RP servers and it has very little contributing mechanics to roleplay.

 

You picked a fight with the antag unprepared, you got wrecked.

 

Did you even read the complaint, or are you cherry picking sentences? We were entirely prepared. He was in cuffs. Three people with lethal weapons were right there. And we did not shoot until he killed the warden. What you people seem to fail to understand is that Stamos, not only totally unfearing of lasers or being killed because lul regenerate I can't feel pain, right, the Thing didn't feel pain, that's why it screamed whenever set on fire, but he was completely subdued and there was no IC reason to believe he was any threat. Are you chastising us because we didn't metagame and assume he'd grow a tail and impale Meowy on it? You can't be prepared to fight a changeling without a sharp implement or a shotgun to take it's head off. They are literally invincible and there is no way to stop the random death stings. So I guess I'm sorry I didn't metagame and run to saw off his head.

[Gollee]

I got rek'd. P-please ban this sick filth

 

So, your idea of how the round should have gone is immediately stuncuffing Stamos, shoving him in a straightjacket, tossing him in the permabrig with an implant and leaving him to SSD?

You picked a fight with the antag unprepared, you got wrecked.Unless Mirk hunted down random civillians and deathstung them for shits and giggles, I don't see the reason for this complaint. You tried to kill Stamos, Stamos tried to kill you. He survived, you didn't. If you cant handle losing, play on Hippy or Goon for a while to sharpen your robusting skills.

If anything, blame Bay for removing paralysis stings, which would have allowed Mirk to stun you and get away instead of murdering you.

 

Staying civil in threads promotes cooperation towards constructive discussion.

I am in agreement with Sue and Meow on this point; absorbing monkeys, rather than actually interacting with the crew, is exactly like stealth-cult, stealth-nuke, a scientist maxing out RnD and walking around with a Peacemaker. It presents an unfair advantage to one side, and deliberately removes player interaction and roleplay for game mechanics; practically the definition of power-gaming.

If any of the examples I gave happened, the admin team would disrupt it immediately, as it is unfair to the rest of the players on the server to be subjected to rampant powergame/metagame, just so the antags can get their greentext, rather than fulfilling their actual function, which is to make the round interesting and fun for everyone on the server.

This does not mean that the antag should not fight back, and try and win, but it does mean that they have responsibilities beyond simply causing havoc. In the same way that security also has a responsibility to not just disable the antag, which was being respected here, as they were using a tracking implant, rather than a loyalty (Which I don't believe work on changelings), or perma-brigging.

Security seemed to be allowing the antag to escape, through the implant, and therefore encouraging a continuation of the conflict they caused, while the antag went straight to lethal attacks with only marginal provocation.