Staff Decision Discussion - Yonnimer

[TheOrleans]

 

I refuse to call this staff complaint. I want to discuss the decision, but Yonni acted well and spoke with me much more than any other admin before placing the warning.

 

BYOND Key: TheNewOrleans

Staff BYOND Key: Yonnimer

Game ID: b1d-akro

Reason for complaint: I disagree with the decision made, that made me get a warning for self-antagging. I think what I did is reasonable, very reasonable. This is the reason. I will start with the explanation now:

For context, this was a changeling round. The changeling was Research Director Azqu Uqu-Uilk, who was arrested for eating another scientist. Then we moved to the questioning room, where I could interact with the changeling for a long period of time. I could talk with it a lot, knowing why it was doing those things, and that sort of things, it even showed us its real form (horror). The changeling seemed to be peaceful, except when hungry, put under heavy stress or threatened. It showed this multiple times. After a very long interaction, the horror became Azqu again, and said that it wanted to go to the bar to eat normal food and drink normal drinks. All I could say after watching it destroy a reinforced wall easily was: ''Okay, but the unit (Oracle) and I will accompany you''. In my opinion it was either that or being killed, and then the horror making a hole through the hull to get wherever it wanted. PEACEFUL APPROACH ALWAYS WORKED, making it stop breaking walls, or hitting things IT WORKED (Nº1)

So, when the HoS Dyslioth knew I ''let'' the RD out, she started yelling over the radio to force it to bring it back. My character was scared and thought it was not his work to restrain that being, and told the HoS to do it on her own. So, IPC Officer Aria and the HoS stormed down the hallway and literally ordered the being to return to the brig. Then the IPC followed this by threatening both the ling and me, and took out its tazer, aiming at me. (Image 1). The HoS supported this hostile approach, which was clearly stupid, since the HoS was there with me when the ling was being peaceful if not threatened. Oracle said that the being had a strong bong with me (it talked with me the most, and I tried to understand it), so it wasn't the best idea to aim at me. And well, so it happened, The RD became a horror and started chasing the HoS to kill her. I multiple times tried to pull it away and tell it to stop (I can show the logs of me saying stop, but since pulling does not leave any log, I can't show that), and it finally killed Lin. I tried doing RCP on her (Image 2), blocking the horror with my body, trusting that it wouldn't attack me, AND IT WORKED (Nº2). An engineer started attacking it, and I was able to push the engineer back, and blocking the horror with my body and pushing it back, trusting that it wouldn't attack if approached in a peaceful way, AND IT WORKED (Nº3) (IMAGE 3), like this I managed to save the engie life.

The horror then chased someone else into Medbay. I kept trying to pull the horror away from the fight, and it never attacked me. Multiple officers shot the horror with laser rifles (at least a full laser rifle was shot), .45 many times... everything. And it didn't die. The horror kept going like nothing. (IMAGE 4)

The horror was eating the cadet, and the IPC kept shooting with a damn .45 at it, even when a full rifle laser didn't kill it. Thinking? Overrated!. I punched the officer ONCE to make it stop. (IMAGE 5) I punched an IPC, yes, a big heavy piece of metals. How destructive right? Why did I do this? Since the agressive approach never worked (HoS? Killed. Cadet? Being eaten. Oracle? Nearly destroyed. The engineer who attacked it? Only alive cause I approached it in a peaceful way) I thought that I could try to speak with the horror, and pull it away. 

What did the IPC do? In the middle of the situation, just cause I punched it ONCE, it started grabbing me, and fighting, right in front of the horror was eating the cadet. (But I am the one who did non-reasonable things?). Literally, fighting me next to the horror. Nice thing to dom in the middle of the situation, right? Since the IPC officer was risking my life by throwing me nearly against the horror, I shot it with the revolver (only thing I had) against it. A revolver this size (IMAGE 6, straight from wikipedia) against an IPC. Won't destroy it forever for sure. 

 

So, that's all the context and all that happened.

Now, I got a warning because what I did was not reasonable. Really? It wasn't? The peaceful approach, trying to speak, worked at least, three times, and saved, at least, once life and the security walls.

The hostile approach, going KOS ON THE THING, PULL THE TRIGGER, got the HoS, a cadet, and who knows who else killed.

This is what I said to Yonni at the moment, and I don't change a word from it

Spoiler

 My character interacted with the being, during a long period, multiple times. The situation was clear. The horror was not hostile unless hungry, stressed or threatend. The ling himself said that he wouldn't be hungry for months, so take that away. If not stressed or harmed, it wouldn't be hostile. The HoS was there for a long time and didn't read the situation properly. This lead to the HoS threatening it, which evolved into everyone dying. I tried to approach it on a peaceful friendly way, and that worked. I pulled it, never attacked me, I was able to save the engineer life. I was going to try that again when the horror was eating the cadet, but I couldn't do that if the IPC kept shooting, so I tried to make it stop. The IPC decided to go hostile on me, and spray me when being next to the horror, this has 0 logic.

As part of security, since the HoS and the cadet died, and a stationbound was nearly destroyed when approaching it in a hostile way, I decided to change the approach to something more peaceful. The IPC was clearly not thinking a bit (poorly wait to roleplay an IPC), and since in my opinion that would lead to more deaths, I tried to approach it peacefully, I punched the IPC one to get its attention and it went berserk on me.

That's my explanation, anything else I say will be repeating the same again and again. Hope we can discuss this. Thank you

Evidence/logs/etc:

Image 1 

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Image 2

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Image 3

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Image 4

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Image 5

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Image 6

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Additional remarks: I got a warning and I would like to have it removed if I win this discussion, or at least, changed it to a note.

The reason of the warning is: Self antagging by attacking a officer who was attacking a ling horrorform due to prior events, this was not a valid situation to be attacking them..

I literally punched an IPC ONCE, and then it was the IPC the one who went berserk on me, and then I had to defend myself of course. 

Edited May 12, 2019 by TheOrleans

[Garnascus]

4 hours ago, TheOrleans said:

The changeling seemed to be peaceful, except when hungry, put under heavy stress or threatened. I

"i am peaceful except when i am not"

 

4 hours ago, TheOrleans said:

In my opinion it was either that or being killed

Why? You say it was peaceful. 

 

4 hours ago, TheOrleans said:

And well, so it happened, The RD became a horror and started chasing the HoS to kill her. I multiple times tried to pull it away and tell it to stop

Bruh this is far past the time for negotiations. It keeps breaking shit and causing havoc despite your "peaceful talks"

It broke out of the brig and killed people dude. Full fucking stop. 

[TheOrleans]

5 hours ago, Garnascus said:

"i am peaceful except when i am not"

Yeah, it was peaceful, we only had to avoid threatening it and stressing it too much. And even when we didn't have a way to stop it if it decided to go hostile, you decide to threaten it? Very smart from the HoS. 

5 hours ago, Garnascus said:

Why? You say it was peaceful. 

It was peaceful, if not threatened. We had messaged Central Command, and we had to wait for them to respond since we FOR SURE couldn't deal with that. But the HoS didn't wait. And welp, everyone died.

5 hours ago, Garnascus said:

Bruh this is far past the time for negotiations. It keeps breaking shit and causing havoc despite your "peaceful talks"

It broke out of the brig and killed people dude. Full fucking stop. 

That's false, Garn. It didn't break out of the brig, I opened the airlocks for it (cause otherwise it would have done so). And it only killed the scientist before that. I'm not saying I was his best friend or saying that it was some thing you could have as pet. I'm saying that we couldn't deal with it, and we had to wait for CC to respond, so the best way to wait WITHOUT DYING was trying to approach the being in a peaceful way. And it worked. Until someone (HoS + Aria) decided to NOT approach in a peaceful way.

 

It seems you don't understand that we had already messaged Central Command, and the fact that in case of the being going hostile, there was no way we could stop it. Best way to approach it was being friendly with it, until Central Command sent someone prepared to deal with it. 

I was punished for doing the only thing that didn't lead to deaths. And yet this was called non-reasonable. Well, I think that the non-reasonable thing was to threaten a being that was way above what we could handle. 

Edited May 12, 2019 by TheOrleans

[Garnascus]

No you where punished for being extremely silly. You let the changeling out of the brig because "it would have done so anyway". You disregarded the HoS's orders and you aided a hostile criminal. 

10 hours ago, TheOrleans said:

We had messaged Central Command, and we had to wait for them to respond since we FOR SURE couldn't deal with that. But the HoS didn't wait. And welp, everyone died.

No, you can deal with it. It is security's job to deal with it. This is also not your call to make. You are not in charge. 

You aided a hostile criminal

You disregarded the chain of command

You attacked your fellow officers.

 

[TheOrleans]

2 hours ago, Garnascus said:

No you where punished for being extremely silly. You let the changeling out of the brig because "it would have done so anyway". You disregarded the HoS's orders and you aided a hostile criminal. 

No, you can deal with it. It is security's job to deal with it. This is also not your call to make. You are not in charge. 

You aided a hostile criminal

You disregarded the chain of command

You attacked your fellow officers.

 

Garn let me tell you something. You're losing control with your language and the way you speak to the players. Calm down, you already lost a complaint for this. Stop behaving like that to the players, since they are the ones who keep this alive. You did this in your previous answer and you kind of keep doing it now. Thank you, I appreciate your hard work, but please, calm down.

 

Now. You say I act silly? A Detectice (not an officer) who does not want to die by following a stupid order given by a stupid head? Yeah, threaten that being who destroys reinforced plasteel walls without any tool or weapon, such a great idea!

ISD is not trained to deal with some things, we are not soldiers, we are not spec ops team. Half of the hostile situations are more than a reason for everyone in the ISD to drop their weapons and hide, they're just private security.

I decide to play this the best way I can, the most realistic way I can. A xenobeing clearly strong enough to destroy me in a second wants to leave? I open the damn airlock and wait for CC to send someone PREPARED to deal with it.

You say "no, you are wrong, you can deal with this". Well, they tried, and they all died. Except me, the only character who thought a bit about self-care and using the word instead of the gun. Apefficer Security acted, and killed half of the crew.

3/4 of the things you said "not following an order", "this is not your call to make" are IC issues, not deserving a warning.

The only OOC thing is "aiding a hostile criminal". I pushed it away fron people multiple times, I fought against it without risking myself too much, is it non-reasonable?

Yes, I opened an airlock to let it leave the Brig. I said it multiple times, it was that, or dying while the thing tears a hole through the wall.

And yes, I punched ONCE an IPC to draw his attention, and the IPC went berserk on me, I had to defend myself.

You are defending the apesec a lot of people hate. People with guns who never think, just shoot. I put a bit of mind on the matter, managing to keep the thing peaceful and I get warned.

 

There are many, MANY, threats to the station usually treated like this. Wizards who threat and harm people. Ninjas who are not engaged with weapons even when they have commited severe crimes... many examples, and this horror was even more dangerous. 

The round clearly showed that my actions were the most reasonable. I saved lives by engaging it in a peaceful way.

The round clearly showed that the HoS and Aria engaging it in a hostile way was not reasonable. It got maaany people killed.

But you keep going against the facts.

[Garnascus]

42 minutes ago, TheOrleans said:

Garn let me tell you something. You're losing control with your language and the way you speak to the players. Calm down, you already lost a complaint for this. Stop behaving like that to the players

Excuse me? Do not try to tone police me. 

 

44 minutes ago, TheOrleans said:

ISD is not trained to deal with some things, we are not soldiers, we are not spec ops team. Half of the hostile situations are more than a reason for everyone in the ISD to drop their weapons and hide, they're just private security.

This has absolutely nothing to do with your behavior this round. You did not drop your weapon and hide. 

 

47 minutes ago, TheOrleans said:

3/4 of the things you said "not following an order", "this is not your call to make" are IC issues, not deserving a warning.

Well i am sorry but i disagree. I expect the chain of command to be respected on some sort of OOC level. 

 

52 minutes ago, TheOrleans said:

Yes, I opened an airlock to let it leave the Brig. I said it multiple times, it was that, or dying while the thing tears a hole through the wall.

You could have ran. I do not know what else to tell you. I think you're actions this round where not appropriate roleplay. 

[ben10083]

I noticed that a large element of this was that they were expecting CC response, so I will quickly clear it up:

NTCC Odin is not equipped to handle containment of biohazards and other kinds of xenos, however the Upsilon, Aurora, and other research stations are capable of doing so. 

If you meant that ERT was needed, even though ERT could help deal with the situation more efficiently (as with any other situation), ISD is still expected to protect NT assets and neutralize threats that endanger these assets

[TheOrleans]

13 hours ago, Garnascus said:

This has absolutely nothing to do with your behavior this round. You did not drop your weapon and hide. 

 

Well i am sorry but i disagree. I expect the chain of command to be respected on some sort of OOC level. 

 

You could have ran. I do not know what else to tell you. I think you're actions this round where not appropriate roleplay. 

OOC level, if you are given, as a Detective (not even Officer) order to force a clearly unstoppable lethal-threat, you say screw you chief, come and do it yourself. Which is exactly what I did. 

You think it is not appropiate to roleplay some fear and self-care? Cause that's what I did. It's not all running and hiding, if you know there's a way for the lethal-threat to remain peaceful, you FOLLOW that way. Or you get whitelisted as HoS and threat it, and then die, cause, who cares? It's non canon pal! I will revive next shift without any proooblem! 

If my actions were non-reasonable, why were my actions the only ones that didn't end up in crewmembers death? 

[TheOrleans]

6 hours ago, ben10083 said:

I noticed that a large element of this was that they were expecting CC response, so I will quickly clear it up:

NTCC Odin is not equipped to handle containment of biohazards and other kinds of xenos, however the Upsilon, Aurora, and other research stations are capable of doing so. 

If you meant that ERT was needed, even though ERT could help deal with the situation more efficiently (as with any other situation), ISD is still expected to protect NT assets and neutralize threats that endanger these assets

Well it could have been cool to get a response from CC like: We can't help, yoyo bois

But since that response was not given, my character was expecting to get some help to deal with it.

[Garnascus]

Hello

 

I apologize for letting this sit. I honestly forgot about it. It is completely and totally my fault. I did however ask for a second opinion from @Alberyk and he concurred with the reasoning i have given you here. We do not believe the issues i have stated are simply IC issues and we believe the warning given is valid. 

[TheOrleans]

7 hours ago, Garnascus said:

Hello

 

I apologize for letting this sit. I honestly forgot about it. It is completely and totally my fault. I did however ask for a second opinion from @Alberyk and he concurred with the reasoning i have given you here. We do not believe the issues i have stated are simply IC issues and we believe the warning given is valid. 

I mean, if Yonni, Alb and you think the decision is correct and the warning is valid, I have to accept it.

Lock this whenever you want!

[Garnascus]

Locking and archiving.