Rosetango Posted May 16, 2019 Posted May 16, 2019 BYOND Key: RosetangoStaff BYOND Key: Readthisnameplz, HouseofsynthGame ID: N/A, at least not easily.Reason for complaint: I disagree with my judgment, as I feel the actual scenario that took place was not looked at thoroughly enough. I have also failed after two months to receive an explanation on what exactly in that scenario what I did wrong, or what rules I broke. Nobody has even remotely tried to help me improve, nor give out detailed advice. I also feel that a lot of the people who were involved's opinions were either not received, or were completely ignored. The judgment itself actually breaks my character and makes her impossible to play. I have done things as Sammo (of course, rarely) that Willow would have done, and gotten away with it. The most important example I can think of is when I told @somethingiguess to back off repeatedly (to prevent her from abusing a prisoner) and when she didn't, I stabbed Moira once in the foot. Had I done that as Willow, I would have been banned near instantly. I would also like to raise something that someone said to me. I will not say their name because I don't know if they would like to be named or involved in this report. "[ANONYMOUS] Last Tuesday at 9:25 AM That was Something I would equate that to dyslioths warning just recently you didnt olay the character to their expecations so its wrong no matter if the security team ocly there oocly also thought you were in the right If both parties agree. The third osrty should be null imho Party*"Evidence/logs/etc: There's a lot. PLEASE READ THOROUGHLY, AND ASK QUESTIONS, WHOEVER TAKES THIS. 18 Spoiler RosetangoLast Friday at 7:48 AM Okay so. I may not be able to send this all in one sitting, so I'm sorry about that. In the complaint, Resi says that the situation could have been canon when it clearly couldn't have been as it was the result of antag actions. Not everybody who was present (DasFox and Smifboy) were contacted, and you can see even in the complaint that Willow had the entire cargo team backing her against the HoS. Willow trusted the HoS to not use the ion, simply because of how many others he could kill by using it on the shuttle. Willow eventually did obey the order out of spite. Nobody who was actually involved in the scenario had an issue with what went down. Resi, who wasn't even involved in the situation, made the complaint. Willow has Asperger's Syndrome, which makes it harder for her to communicate what she actually means and makes it harder to regulate her emotions. I actually have Asperger's, IRL. Most of her anger comes from untreated traumas, and constant beratement from her coworkers. Resi does a lot of the things I do as Willow as Fernando. I literally see him, at least once a week, use his CMO status to do regulation breaking shit and get away with it. I do expect consequences and I don't wait for antag rounds to get away with shit. A lot, if not all of what the complaint is about, is about an IC issue. Fear RP, maybe an OOC issue, but tensions were already running high due to an incident earlier in the shift and given the fact that there was a literal serial killer on the station, nobody knew who he was. The round also happened late at night so obviously not all of us are operating at 100%. I'm sorry if this seems emotionally charged but I feel like I am being bullied and my concerns absolutely ignored. Literally, a couple weeks ago, a round as Sammo, I warned Moira to back off of a prisoner she kept trying to beat up. Moira didn't back up, so I used the pike I had built to stab her exactly once in tne foot. I got away with this. But if I had done this as Willow, I would have been banned. I'm going to grab a couple of resources for symptoms of Asperger's. I'll have to send my DM logs of Read later today. AlberykLast Friday at 7:54 AM Alright. RosetangoLast Friday at 7:56 AM A lot of the people were in the same position I was, but they weren't punished the same way I was. The fact that Resi made this complaint because she felt bad over something that didn't really happen is kind of suspect to me, and I've tried to raise the possibility of Resi metagrudging me in the past only to be completely ignored. https://www.everydayhealth.com/aspergers/what-are-signs-symptoms-disorder/ EverydayHealth.com What are the Signs and Symptoms of Asperger's Syndrome? | Everyday... Typical signs and symptoms of Asperger's Disorder include Common symptoms of Asperger’s that may impact social interaction or communication include problems making or maintaining friendships,minimal interaction in social situations and an inability to rec Here's a pretty good one. https://www.medicinenet.com/asperger_syndrome/article.htm#what_are_the_signs_and_symptoms_of_aspergers_syndrome MedicineNet What Is Aspergers Syndrome? Definition, Symptoms & Test What is Aspergers syndrome? Asperger syndrome (sometimes called Asperger's disease) can impact adults and children, some of whom are high-functioning Asperger's sufferers. Learn from our medical experts the symptoms, signs, and traits of Asperger's syndrome. The last one. https://www.millcreekofmagee.com/disorders/aspergers/signs-causes-symptoms/ Millcreek of Magee Signs & Symptoms of Asperger's | Millcreek of Magee Treatment Center Understand the causes, side effects, signs, and symptoms of Asperger's. Millcreek of Magee Treatment Center offers residential treatment and home-based programs for kids, teens, and young adults. I raised the fact that Willow has asperger's in private to Read (I'm pretty sure), but I can't get the DMs to you until I get home. I also want to point out that Synth said (I think) that he recalled looking at logs but not what the logs said, which prompts me to think that the logs weren't looked at close enough. Also, Resi exaggerated a lot in her complaint. Willow has not assaulted several heads of staff. She only punched that captain once in the face. That is not "leading a mutiny on a canon round". That's just her assaulting a head of staff out of frustration because she couldn't get his attention no matter what and was tired of hearing him spew what she considered bullshit. She didn't encourage anyone to join her. She actually planned on going peacefully with security, but security at that time decided not to charge her (???) AlberykLast Friday at 8:14 AM Right This feels like would fit better as a staff complaint But What was your question about willow exactly RosetangoLast Friday at 8:15 AM What in that situation did I do wrong to prompt the judgement that I got. What rules am I breaking? How am I violating my past warnings? Like, I'll send you exactly what the warning says. I don't understand what rules I'm breaking. Willow was antagonistic within reason. And if this question can't really be answered in a clear and concise way then that makes me just... think. AlberykLast Friday at 8:28 AM Right Would be too much to ask for you to make a complaint? RosetangoLast Friday at 8:29 AM Yes (jk) No, it wouldn't. Could I just post what I said in here into my complaint? AlberykLast Friday at 8:30 AM Yes RosetangoLast Friday at 8:30 AM Okay, thanks Alb. [SIDENOTE] I mean to say that Synth recalled looking at the logs, but he didn't remember what the logs said. RTNP DMs: https://pastebin.com/gLS3bMzu Houseofsynth DMs: https://pastebin.com/JU7zQk7H I also do understand that I need to work on my fear RP as her, and I will admit that is one of the things I failed to do in that incident. But threatening to permaban me for playing my character how she is, and for a slip up on failing to do fear RP, on top of only applying punishment to me and not anybody else involved... It just makes me not want to play.Additional remarks: I'm sorry if a lot of the things I say are emotionally charged. I'm upset by this deeply, and I don't think I could get all of this out in one sitting without rewriting it all. I want to give permission to @ParadoxSpace to be able to comment on this because he has a way of pointing out and wording things, an ability to do that, that I don't have. He often has a way of pointing out these things that I fail to say but completely agree with. I would also like to bring up that Arrow's post was taken into consideration even though it was not about the complaint itself, or rather the incident involved. Also, at least not to my knowledge, neither Dasfox or Smithead/Smifboy were contacted regarding the situation they witnessed and were involved in.
Alberyk Posted May 16, 2019 Posted May 16, 2019 I will handle this. @ReadThisNamePlz and @HouseOfSynth should also post their views soon.
ReadThisNamePlz Posted May 22, 2019 Posted May 22, 2019 Hi, sorry for the long delay. I needed to take a few days off. Little vacation. I'm going to try my best to break down my thought process during this complaint. I need to make something very clear, I have no issue with you at all, Rose. I find you to be one of the more likable members in our community and always pleasant to interact with icly and oocly. Right, so. Willow has a history of being a 'problem', for lack of better words. (I'm not trying to be mean, I'm really not, I'm sorry if I come off as a bitch/come off as mean.) There has been multiple complaints and warnings made against this character. While yes, Willow has improved significantly, she still isn't really believable in my honest opinion. I get you have or had a character arc planned for her, and I think that's awesome! But when analyzing this complaint, and other complaints/warnings you've been given, I felt that Willow has made some significant progress since the last major complaint. (The one we referenced in the complaint against you, which has led to this.) But, not enough to put you/Willow in the clear. House and I spent an extensive amount of time working on the complaint, and we did our best to come up with a fair outcome for you while trying to not completely shut down Willow. You mention that we essentially broke how Willow is meant to be played/her story. If a staff ruling breaks a character and their personality.. Perhaps the character shouldn't be around at all until they are fixed? I know I said I'd help out with how to essentially fix Willow, and I know I dropped the ball on it, I'm really sorry, that's on me, I don't want to go into detail on why I dropped the ball, I'll just pm you about it and make a formal apology in our DM's. I don't want it to be public, sorry. I hope this clears up some of what I was thinking during the complaint. You gotta remember it was 2 months ago and I have a horrible memory. Sorry if this isn't good enough of an answer for you.
HouseOfSynth Posted May 26, 2019 Posted May 26, 2019 Hey there! Apologies for taking so long to reply to this, things have been real hectic for me recently. I'm going to go through the main body of your complaint and the evidence spoiler seperately and give my thoughts on each of them. Firstly, the main body. On 17/05/2019 at 00:04, Rosetango said: I disagree with my judgment, as I feel the actual scenario that took place was not looked at thoroughly enough. I'd say we were pretty thorough in looking into what happened. We didn't take issue with you siding with Thea, it was how you responded to security that we took issue with among other things outlined a bit later on below. As for judgement, you've been temp-banned for, essentially, a similar issue as a result of a complaint in the past. We decided that, instead of escalating that ban, we would give you a warning and an indication that you really needed to change how you play Willow. On 17/05/2019 at 00:04, Rosetango said: I have also failed after two months to receive an explanation on what exactly in that scenario what I did wrong, or what rules I broke. Nobody has even remotely tried to help me improve, nor give out detailed advice. I have no argument against this since I'm totally at fault here. And I'm very sorry that is the case. Regarding the scenario, one issue we had was you dragging Thea away from security. You essentially cut off the RP by physically pulling them away. There were also other instances in that round where you disregarded any fear for the situations you were presented. The screenshots of those can be found on the player complaint resi made. I think the primary thing you should take away from this is that you should really think about the consequences for Willow's actions. For example, you confirmed you had punched a head of staff as they weren't listening to you right? That's something you could totally lose your job over. Would Willow really want to risk her job just because they weren't listening to her? Could she not have found another Head of Staff or at least someone else to ask? I lack exact context on that situation so I can't say for sure, but I believe that's the main issue we had with Willow. However, recently, I've heard no complaints against her. On 17/05/2019 at 00:04, Rosetango said: The judgment itself actually breaks my character and makes her impossible to play. I have done things as Sammo (of course, rarely) that Willow would have done, and gotten away with it. The most important example I can think of is when I told @somethingiguess to back off repeatedly (to prevent her from abusing a prisoner) and when she didn't, I stabbed Moira once in the foot. Had I done that as Willow, I would have been banned near instantly. I wouldn't say it breaks Willow at all, really. As I said above, our primary issue was Willow's consistant lack of thought for the consequences of her actions. I can't speak for other staff members, but the issue between your other character and Moira seems reasonable as it seems there was escalation and reason there. Had you done it as Willow and it was still within reason, I see no reason as to why you'd be banned. On 17/05/2019 at 00:04, Rosetango said: "[ANONYMOUS] Last Tuesday at 9:25 AM That was Something I would equate that to dyslioths warning just recently you didnt olay the character to their expecations so its wrong no matter if the security team ocly there oocly also thought you were in the right If both parties agree. The third osrty should be null imho Party*" I don't really get this. Simply because two parties think it's fine, doesn't really make it fine. Resi evidently didn't think it was OK, myself and Read collectively decided the situation had some flaws. ShesTrying, the player of Thea even mentioned that it didn't make much sense from an OOC standpoint on the original complaint. I checked all of Dyslioth's warnings and none of them bare any relevance to the warning and/or the situation described in the previous complaint. Alrighty, now I'm gonna go through what you've said in the evidence section of the complaint and give my thoughts there. On 17/05/2019 at 00:04, Rosetango said: In the complaint, Resi says that the situation could have been canon when it clearly couldn't have been as it was the result of antag actions. This wasn't taken into account on the previous complaint, we wouldn't have taken it as canon so you're fine there. I'm happy with it being considered non-canon On 17/05/2019 at 00:04, Rosetango said: Not everybody who was present (DasFox and Smifboy) were contacted, and you can see even in the complaint that Willow had the entire cargo team backing her against the HoS. I went through the round logs, looking at everything said by you, about you and to you. Coupled with the information given in the complaint, there wasn't really any need to reach out to others for more information. As for the cargo team backing Willow up, fair enough that'd make Willow feel a lot safer in that situation but then on the flip side of that, the cargo team are wielding weapons against a security team that having to deal with a "Terrifying" serial killer. Is that really a good idea? Again, our issue is with how Willow disregards severe consequences that can come from her actions. On 17/05/2019 at 00:04, Rosetango said: Willow trusted the HoS to not use the ion, simply because of how many others he could kill by using it on the shuttle. Willow eventually did obey the order out of spite. Fair enough, however the HoS had also threatened you with their baton so Willow knew the HoS had other tools at his disposal to subdue her. And, alright you obeyed the order eventually, but this is after the situation outlined in the previous complaint. It doesn't really void the actions you took to attempt to avoid arrest. On 17/05/2019 at 00:04, Rosetango said: Nobody who was actually involved in the scenario had an issue with what went down. Resi, who wasn't even involved in the situation, made the complaint. As I said before, that doesn't 100% gaurantee that the scenario was valid. On 17/05/2019 at 00:04, Rosetango said: Willow has Asperger's Syndrome, which makes it harder for her to communicate what she actually means and makes it harder to regulate her emotions. I actually have Asperger's, IRL. Most of her anger comes from untreated traumas, and constant beratement from her coworkers. I don't have much knowledge in terms of Aspergers and it's symptoms beyond what you've outlined in the spoiler. I have no issue with Willow having this condition, but it does beg the question as to why she isn't retrieving treatment. I'd think NT would likely do some form of medical lookup and psychiatric examinations due to how much of a closed environment a space station is. The rules state characters must be believable, well-rounded and realistic. Willow having this condition, as I said, is totally fine and fits within the rules. However, if it's causing her to become emotionally unstable in such a way that she becomes a danger to herself and those around her, I think it's pushing it a bit. Especially if that's it's driving her to put herself into these situations. On 17/05/2019 at 00:04, Rosetango said: Resi does a lot of the things I do as Willow as Fernando. I literally see him, at least once a week, use his CMO status to do regulation breaking shit and get away with it. All I can say here is that you should ahelp these situations. If Resi is breaking the rules then you should tell us. We try our best to but we really cant see and notice everything. On 17/05/2019 at 00:04, Rosetango said: Fear RP, maybe an OOC issue, but tensions were already running high due to an incident earlier in the shift and given the fact that there was a literal serial killer on the station, nobody knew who he was. I believe I've pretty much covered this point above. Your FearRP and, as stated, the lack of thought for consequences is the main issue. On 17/05/2019 at 00:04, Rosetango said: I'm sorry if this seems emotionally charged but I feel like I am being bullied and my concerns absolutely ignored. I'm really sorry that you feel this way, and it's primarily on me due to not getting back to your PMs due to IRL issues. I take responsibility for that. On 17/05/2019 at 00:04, Rosetango said: I also want to point out that Synth said (I think) that he recalled looking at logs but not what the logs said, which prompts me to think that the logs weren't looked at close enough. Yes, I said that. But I read a lot of info on a daily basis, server-side and IRL-side. It'd been some time since the complaint was marked resolved before you asked if I recalled looking at the logs. As I said, I looked at everything said to, about, and by you as well as all your interactions. I believe that I looked through them thoroughly enough. On 17/05/2019 at 00:04, Rosetango said: Also, Resi exaggerated a lot in her complaint. Willow has not assaulted several heads of staff. She only punched that captain once in the face. That is not "leading a mutiny on a canon round". That's just her assaulting a head of staff out of frustration because she couldn't get his attention no matter what and was tired of hearing him spew what she considered bullshit. She didn't encourage anyone to join her. She actually planned on going peacefully with security, but security at that time decided not to charge her (???) As for the situation with the Captain, I covered that earlier. We didn't focus on their remark about you supposedly leading mutinies because there wasn't really anything to back that up at all. Not even an anecdote. In conclusion: Our issue with Willow is this. There are multiple situations outlined in your complaints that show a lack of FearRP from Willow, you admitted this in your complaint, stating that an issue, OOC at that, may have been FearRP. In addition to this, Willow has a tendency to ignore the consequences of her actions, even when they could be quite severe. These two things are why we gave you the warning, perhaps with our wording, that wasn't conveyed very well and if that is the case I apologise. I've no hard feelings from this complaint, if you have any questions in terms of my responses or Willow's playstyle, feel free to mention me in a reply.
Alberyk Posted May 29, 2019 Posted May 29, 2019 @Rosetango Did read and synth explanation help clear this up, do you still think that their handling of the complaint was not proper?
Rosetango Posted May 31, 2019 Author Posted May 31, 2019 Honestly? Yes. On 26/05/2019 at 12:30, HouseOfSynth said: I don't have much knowledge in terms of Aspergers and it's symptoms beyond what you've outlined in the spoiler. I have no issue with Willow having this condition, but it does beg the question as to why she isn't retrieving treatment. I'd think NT would likely do some form of medical lookup and psychiatric examinations due to how much of a closed environment a space station is. The rules state characters must be believable, well-rounded and realistic. Willow having this condition, as I said, is totally fine and fits within the rules. However, if it's causing her to become emotionally unstable in such a way that she becomes a danger to herself and those around her, I think it's pushing it a bit. Especially if that's it's driving her to put herself into these situations. Asperger's isn't something you just know you have, and medical/psychiatric check-ups are typically general, more like "have you changed meds, have you been sick, are you showing any symptoms of X". Just because Willow gets an ion gun pointed at her doesn't mean she's a danger to herself or those around her- the person who aimed the ion is more likely a danger to those around them. Do people do stupid shit sometimes, and pay for it? Yes? Then why is it an issue for Willow to make rash, illogical decision as humans, or literally anything with emotions do? Do you think I disregard the consequences of her actions? I don't. I am fully aware of the consequences of her actions. Also, clearly you didn't actually read the symptoms, because it literally says this in the first one: Quote Inappropriate behaviors or odd mannerisms Problems expressing empathy, controlling emotions, or communicating feelings 1 Quote Asperger’s: Not a One-Size-Fits-All Disorder No two people with Asperger’s are exactly alike. The disorder manifests itself in various ways, and many people experience different symptoms than others do. Some have only mild issues, while some face major challenges. Also, because Asperger’s is now categorized under the broad diagnosis of “autism spectrum disorder,” some of the symptoms are no longer recognized as being exclusively Asperger’s but rather “on the spectrum.” This change was incorporated in the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) in 2013. The second one: Quote unusually sensitive to noises, touch, odors, tastes, or visual stimuli; Quote Sometimes, people with Asperger disorder have other associated psychiatric conditions or may show behaviors that are typical for other conditions. Some common associated conditions include the following (but these are not always present): Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) Anxiety disorder Oppositional defiant disorder or other disruptive behavior disorders Depression or other mood disorders And the third one: Quote Inability to express one’s own feelings Heightened sensitivity and overstimulation to loud noises, bright lights, unusual textures, or strong tastes Difficulties with changes or upsets in routine Difficulties picking up on the subtle changes in tone, pitch, and voice that accompany regular conversation May be unable to understand sarcasm or jokes Lack of social skills Most importantly... Quote Psychosocial Symptoms: Loneliness and social isolation Lowered self-esteem Tendency toward shyness Anxiety Moodiness Depression From personal experience, I was not diagnosed until I was around 13 or 14. Do you know what I went in for? Having panic attacks right before I slept every night. I came out with Mild Asperger's with Anxiety. I can remember quite a few times when overloaded, that I actually ended up attacking my little brother (only 2 yr age difference) to make him stop because I felt cornered. Just because Willow does not show an obvious reaction does not mean she disregards the consequences of her actions. Was Willow scared when she was in the situation she was in? Yes. Is she able to express that in a way others understand? No. I am being punished for playing a character that is flawed and acts outside of the norm, and does not go "oh no" every time she's threatened. I'm being punished for playing a character that makes irrational decisions as we all do. Have you ever said something you don't mean during a heated argument, to someone you love? Congratulations, you've made an irrational decision, just like Willow. Irrational decisions are made in the moment and in hindsight may not even make sense. Put yourself in Willow's shoes. Security has hurt you in the past and even brigged you for minor things such as jokingly poking a HOS or pranks. You are very aware that the people on security comms shit talk you all the time and actively dislike you. Then, you find out that somebody is being chased by ISD (instead of the ISD focusing on the intruder) because they did something minor (get in the OR rooms to prevent something bad) to get demoted by a CMO who has verbally abused you in the past on several occasions. You cannot trust ISD to treat her fairly. You cannot trust the CMO to listen to your reason. You are scared that if this person being chased gets out of your sight or out of your reach, you won't be able to protect them from what happened to you. You see the HoS talking to this person. What the hell are you going to do? Move them away from the dangerous situation and put yourself in the path. Why? Because you know you can take it, and you have extremely low self worth. You also can't clearly communicate these feelings because you just don't know how. And I'm being threatened with a permaban if I keep playing Willow the way she is. Because she makes illogical decisions. Because she faces major challenges with controlling her emotions. Because people have gone out of their way to antagonize her. Because she gets noisy on communications sometimes, because she's worried about her coworkers and actually cares enough about them to check on them. This is what I am being threatened with a permaban for. Because people are too focused on what she was, not what she is and how things look from her perspective.
Rosetango Posted May 31, 2019 Author Posted May 31, 2019 Also, I was temp banned for escalation, not fearRP.
Alberyk Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 Sorry for taking so long to deal with this, I have been a bit more busy lately. Anyway, let me explain how I see this. The situation with the head of security does not seems to be of much of an issue with me, due to the previous conflict between both parties, cargo and security, and the fact that cargo just went with civil disobedience instead of assaulting security, which would be the really issue here. I am totally fine with this kind of thing, as long there is some reason to back up this kind of choice, people can defy command and security if they have a reason. Now on consequences; I also believe that people should suffer due to their choices, and surely Willow would due to what her did, but it was a non-canon situation due to antag and etcs, which is what happens in a lot of cases, and there is little we can do here, so I feel like this is kind of thing that should be solved on spot or with the cciaa, if they are not solved, good luck, that is how the story went. As far I recall, Rose did accept the consequences of punching that captain during the serial killer arc, which was demotion. However, I believe that people doing really egregious things using the antag excuse is not acceptable, but this is really not the case here. On the Asperger's Syndrome situation; I can understand how hard it is. It can be an interesting roleplaying avenue as well, and from what I seen from Willow, I do not think that her condition was at the point of being unbelievable that she was still employed. However, I can understand the frustation of people with some of the things you did, but, from my memory and experience in the past months, you did improve. And a permaban here, after a warning and a really short ban that was months ago, would be really inappropriate. So, stay calm, that I don't think you should, or you are, getting banned due to playing as Willow or something because of this complaint. But, I also believe that you did jump the guns in the situations that were you spoken to before. While I don't have anything against characters that are rebelious or antagonistics at first, they should be playefd with care. Anyway, I think we should reword the warning: "Take in consideration fear roleplay and escalation in your actions, avoid putting yourself in danger or in trouble unless there is a good reason to. If you are planning on doing something drastic, ahelp first. While playing characters that are rebellious and emotionally unstable is fine, you should think twice before doing anything with them." What do you think, @Rosetango
Rosetango Posted June 2, 2019 Author Posted June 2, 2019 That is already leagues better than what was given before and I'm a lot more satisfied with the rewording. I can understand how playing with Willow can be frustrating (I get frustrated with me, too). I'd rather have no warning at all but I'm willing to compromise.
Alberyk Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 I will edit the warning. I think this will be solved, and the thread will be closed in around 24 hours.
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