Staff Complaint - Drwago

[Mogelix]

BYOND Key: Mogelix
Staff BYOND Key: Drwago
Game ID: b1E-dFnl
Reason for complaint: Unjust, unfairly applied Sec-ban.
Evidence/logs/etc: None. I don't even have the Ahelp logs, I can only vaguely remember what it's all about. I don't collect logs and information because I play this game for fun, not to prove points on forums.
Additional remarks: This isn't meant to be the body of my argument, but I'd happy to use it as such. I honestly wanted to make this a unban request, but I don't think I'm willing to accept the ban quite yet, especially regarding how situational and contrived the whole thing was. When I tried writing the Unban request, in of which I would accept my punishment and the reasoning behind it, I found myself frustrated because I didn't agree with what I was writing. 

I see in many other staff complaints, Garnascus simplifies and summarizes the whole thing to a couple of points. It's a handy little thing to explain trains of thought. So, I'd like to give a reasoning to my actions.

1. Join as sec officer.

2. Find lots of money hidden in a fishy briefcase, random maint spawn.

3. Hear unconfirmed rumours of a man on-asteroid with a black military hardsuit. Most of security simply handwaves off.

4. Decide to spend all the money fast, to be consistent to my chars actions and attitude last time he got operations funding.

5. Head to the merchant shuttle upon hearing it be announced on the radio. Note that initially, I was just going to spend money on whatever caught my eye. I was not going to buy weapons exclusively. Bayer begins discussing purchasing weapons out of his own pocket, so I offer to buy them for him. I get some interesting gear, a fire axe and a pocket pistol.

6. As I walk out the merchant dock, the captain approaches me and says that I should buy some EMP grenades. Sure, again, money to spare and dispose of.

7. I ask the merchant if he has EMPs. Nope.

8. Using my money and irritation, I badger the merchant to be taken to his dock and directly browse his wares for EMP grenades.

9. He tells me he has none. So, I flash my remaining six k again and he offers me some bigger guns. He starts browsing on his console, while I'm waiting, I overhear that command has gotten EMP grenades through other methods, and begun distributing them to sec.

10. Buy a x-ray rifle cause again, I want to get spend all this money as fast as possible. I'm not really concerned with the practicality or use of said weapons.

11. The merchant shuttle returns. I return to the brig, and start showing off all my weapons to the HOS and most of security. I lounge around. Bayer get's contracted by the wiz woz.

12. I get mildly snarked out by the HOS about having lethals when there's a non-lethal situation, he asks me if I'm allowed to have them and I ICly tell a half-truth that the captain authorized me getting this weaponry. I honestly just wanted to keep my weapons so I could show them off.

13. We get a rad-storm and I'm practically shoving my guns in the HOS's face, and there's no further objections or orders to stow them.

14. The ninja is sighted, we chase them a bit with the assistance of the wizard. So on, so forth. The Rules of engagement are to pacify.

15. The HOS orders security to briefly fall back if they don't have a weapon to the armory, so they can get weaponry. Note that he doesn't specify a type of weaponry. I am beyond well armed and as such, continue as usual.

16. With co-operation between the wiz-woz and AI, the ninja is located again in robotics. The HOS orders us to surround them. 

17. I arrive along with Bayer, who's in wiz woz gear. From my perspective, I'm the only one with a gun.

18. Bayer begins negotiating. I sit around with a comically useless cadet.

19. While Bayer is full on chatting with the Wizard, and I'm distracted, the HOS says to shoot on the count of three.

20. On the count of three, I unload my lethal x-ray rifle on the ninja.

21. Bayer stuns both me and the ninja with wizwoz powers, and Nova (Who I hadn't seen due to my angle in the robotics lab) dies because she used a ion with a synthetic heart.

22. After a little bit of standing around, we drag the surviving ninja to medical. He wakes up and suicide bombs us, calling us assholes

 

Well, the Ahelp came along and I couldn't convince drwago to change their mind so here I am sec-banned.

I'd like to say this was totally unfair because I was never ICly directly told to 'drop off my lethals and get non-lethals'. Drwago says that HOS's don't have to babysit officers but they are still a command management role. If they didn't want me to lethally shoot the Ninja, they should have actually done something to ensure I was equipped appropriately, which they didn't, no efforts were made other then snarking me out before we had begun actively chasing the ninja. When I unloaded on the ninja, I didn't see anyone else with non-lethals. I also had five seconds to organise myself before I had to shoot, so I shot with what was closest on hand, a lethal weapon. The ninja hadn't even died, granted, it's impossible to tell if i'd have kept clicking even after 'antag horizontal' because Bayer cast a stun spell, but I'd like to remind you, the Ninja survived, and their was a fully functional medical team which I brought them to. This was the ninjas decision to kill themself. If I'd wanted to gank or validhunt the ninja, I'd have picked up my x-ray rifle once my stun worn off and unloaded again, but I didn't, I brought them to medical.

Drwago also cited 'various notes and warnings regarding similar behaviour' which I'm simply not aware of. The only recent similar occurence I can think of is when I accidentally shot a raider a little bit too much during a active gunfight in medical, which was a simple heat of the moment impulse. That same round I was praised by one of the raiders OOCly for not escalating a hostage situation, yet a couple of rounds later I'm told that I'm some sort of active well-known validhunter? Last time I got a ticket for 'valid-hunting', I gave my reasoning and admitted to a slight mistake, and I got a 'ok' and the ticket was ended. If the staff team wants to tell me to chill, they should give me a warning informing me. That said ticket also had entirely different context. I shot this ninja due to a OOC misunderstanding of the situation, and I shot that aforementioned raider because I was kind of panicked.

In conclusion, even if this Staff Complaint gets nowhere, I'd be satisfied with some peace of mind and clarity as I write my unban appeal. Cheers, sorry if this comes off as brash and rude as I'm writing this rather late. I know it also kind of violates the logs-based nature of staff complaints and the general formatting of it all, but hopefully my points reach you. I'd also rather not make this a lengthy and complicated process, so tell me if my argument is going in circles. Who knows, maybe it already is?

Edited June 20, 2019 by Mogelix
forgot to add a space in the title, 2, removed some reduntant repetitive stuff + fixed up grammar

[Lady Fowl]

Going along with these aswell:




My reason for applying this ban is pretty simple. The ninja had not harmed anybody the entire shift, infact they besides teleporting around and into places they should not be and taking stuff were almost peaceninja. The RoE established by the HoS was to capture and detain them, and he questioned you on how you can do that with these lethals weapons (Which you lied about as the captain never approved of this, however thats moreso a  ic issue)

The RoE was never changed by @Aboshedab and he even called the security team to the armory to get non lethals and ions, to which you ignored, in the ahelp claiming you were not called to the armory even though he clearly said for security to come get non lethals, again which you ignored. You were asked then about how you intend to take them down with lethal weapons, which again at this point, was another opportunity to get non lethals.

During the confrontation, Bayer who was a wizard wasnt able to handle the situation and Nova had died from her Ion rifle killing herself, to which you emptied you're X-ray rifle into the Ninja, practically killing them. The issue with this is you took no responsibility for your actions in any form and for the most part tried to pin this as Abo's poor management and that he did not physically force you to the armory to get non lethals, aswell as you buying the /two/ guns in general for the purpose that I believe you had no intention of using non lethal weapons if you were going out of your way to lie about the captain approving this.

I banned you for this as you went out of your way to essentially validhunt the ninja who had not escalated at all in the round and for failing to take any responsibility on your part, I did not make this decision on my own and had other staff members put there input fourth.  If you do something wrong, thats one thing but if you fail to take any responsibility for it thats another issue entirely.

 

[Mogelix]

12 hours ago, DRagO said:

The RoE was never changed by @Aboshedab and he even called the security team to the armory to get non lethals and ions, to which you ignored, in the ahelp claiming you were not called to the armory even though he clearly said for security to come get non lethals, again which you ignored.

'clearly said'.

He never clearly said "Mutema/people who only have lethals, come to the armoury, dump your lethals, and get these non-lethals.". If you as a HOS, don't give clear orders (Snarking someone out is not a order, and has IC reason to not be followed.), it's silly to not expect adverse effects. You have also, admitted yourself, that me lying is and was a IC issue. If Khaled wanted to, he could've asked the captain and gotten my ass in a lot of trouble, and that's a risk I took.

He also, only called "Anyone without a weapon" to the armory. I had three guns. I really didn't fit this criteria. Both orders he gave were either unclear or literally weren't addressed to me.

The rules of engagement were not followed because ICly and OOCly I could not reasonably follow it, due to previous IC issues that resulted in me getting lethal weaponry. I didn't even know we set up a ion ambush. Maybe I really overestimate ninja hardsuits, but I don't think rubbers and tasers do well against them.

12 hours ago, DRagO said:

you emptied you're X-ray rifle into the Ninja, practically killing them

Um, no? They were practically alive and practically suicide bombed themself when they were delivered to a practically fully staffed medbay. 'Practically killing someone' is a oxymoron. If their alive, medical can save them. They even managed to regain consciousness long enough to tell me I was a asshole and activate the suicide bomb.

I was also practically forced to escalate on the ninja. The HOS told me to shoot (While Bayer was negotiating and chatting to them.). Bayer didn't have a gun at all, Nova died because of ion memes, plus was out of my sight, and I was poorly equipped for the situation due to previous IC issues, In the stress and speed of the situation, I used the wrong weapon for the job.

12 hours ago, DRagO said:

aswell as you buying the /two/ guns in general for the purpose that I believe you had no intention of using non lethal weapons if you were going out of your way to lie about the captain approving this.

I actually bought three guns, thanks. My motive to do so was to burn some fishy money on some useless temporary crap, as is IC tradition. The reason it became so weaponry focused is because the merchant only had childrens toys and lethal weaponry in stock (no non-lethals) so I burned my money on said lethal weaponry. IC issue, again.

12 hours ago, DRagO said:

you went out of your way to essentially validhunt the ninja

18 hours ago, Mogelix said:

This was the ninjas decision to kill themself. If I'd wanted to gank or validhunt the ninja, I'd have picked up my x-ray rifle once my stun worn off and unloaded again, but I didn't, I brought them to medical.

The only one who made any decisions regarding the ninja was the HOS. All of security was not properly armed to deal with this. Allow me to reiterate for the third time, Bayer was a magical nut, Nova killed herself with her weapon, and I was left unattended/without orders, so I bought weaponry. All that culminated in a fucked situation caused by security who was fucked for IC reasons. You know, a IC situation.

12 hours ago, DRagO said:

If you do something wrong, thats one thing but if you fail to take any responsibility for it thats another issue entirely.

The problem is, I don't feel like I've done anything extraordinarily unusual, unexpected, or incorrect. I did something stupid, but I didn't do something wrong, because of the reasons stated above.

This is all one giant IC issue. You know, regular gameplay. This is very frustrating and tiring to write and it feels like your repeatedly driving me in circles, and as a result, I'm really repeating myself typing this. I beg that whichever admin is reading through this is also reading all the points I've made, even if it might get rambling and repetitive.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Mogelix
Fixed up some points.

[Garnascus]

Hi. i will get this but it will take me another day or two. My cold came back.

[Mogelix]

On 10/06/2019 at 22:27, Mogelix said:

Drwago also cited 'various notes and warnings regarding similar behaviour' which I'm simply not aware of. The only recent similar occurence I can think of is when I accidentally shot a raider a little bit too much during a active gunfight in medical, which was a simple heat of the moment impulse. That same round I was praised by one of the raiders OOCly for not escalating a hostage situation, yet a couple of rounds later I'm told that I'm some sort of active well-known validhunter? Last time I got a ticket for 'valid-hunting', I gave my reasoning and admitted to a slight mistake, and I got a 'ok' and the ticket was ended.

To continue on this point. I have asked a admin to see my notes and I have looked over it. None of my notes are related to me validhunting antags, the behaviour I've supposedly shown that got me banned from security. Some are related to the way I've attacked and killed pursuing officers as a ninja, others the way I've acted with stolen antag equipment, but not one refers to me improperly escalating, validhunting.
Sorry for not editing and adding it on.

[Garnascus]

On 11/06/2019 at 03:06, Mogelix said:

He never clearly said "Mutema/people who only have lethals, come to the armoury, dump your lethals, and get these non-lethals.". If you as a HOS, don't give clear orders (Snarking someone out is not a order, and has IC reason to not be followed.), it's silly to not expect adverse effects. You have also, admitted yourself, that me lying is and was a IC issue. If Khaled wanted to, he could've asked the captain and gotten my ass in a lot of trouble, and that's a risk I took.

 It seems pretty clear to me from those screenshots that you knew the HoS wanted the ninja alive. Did you ask for non-lethals? 

On 11/06/2019 at 03:06, Mogelix said:

Bayer was a magical nut, Nova killed herself with her weapon, and I was left unattended/without orders, so I bought weaponry. All that culminated in a fucked situation caused by security who was fucked for IC reasons. You know, a IC situation.

On 10/06/2019 at 14:27, DRagO said:

I thought you bought weapons waaaaaaaay security got fucked? 

I mean to me it looks like you bought an x-ray rifle and other guns just to "show off", Lied to the HoS so that you could keep "showing them off" and conveniently did not ask the HoS for non-lethals? I do not know if i buy you shooting the ninja with lethals because you did not have non-lethals. I am not sure if that is all the HoS's fault here. I also do not know if a perma sec ban is appropriate either. You do not really have the notes to justify it.

[Mogelix]

1 hour ago, Garnascus said:

I thought you bought weapons waaaaaaaay security got fucked? 

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

From what I'm reading, no, security was not fucked when I bought guns. We had only had one reported sighting of someone suspicious.

1 hour ago, Garnascus said:

I mean to me it looks like you bought an x-ray rifle and other guns just to "show off", Lied to the HoS so that you could keep "showing them off" and conveniently did not ask the HoS for non-lethals? 

Yes. I bought weapons of varying practicality and damage from the merchant to show off, and then held onto them while shit was still quiet, to 'show off'. When shit escalated, I was going a bit too busy rushing to the ninjas location to stop and get non-lethals, and I was never ordered/called to the armory to get non-lethals, so as a result, the robotics scene happened,

1 hour ago, Garnascus said:

Did you ask for non-lethals? 

No. When we started escalating against the ninja, pursuing them, there was one call to the armory (Which I ignored because it did not address me as a armed person) and then we were off pursuing their confirmed location at very hihg speeds after the Wizard crystal-balled them. Once the escalation started and we stopped just messing around and passively/vaguely looking for 'some dude in a black suit', it was all going a little bit too fast for me to have chats with the HOS about my armament.

When shit was peaceful, I wasn't told to get weaponry and was just chilling with my sweet guns, ignoring the HOS's snarking out. When shit was escalating, I was never ordered to go to the armory for non-lethals, and was too busy following other orders and rapidly pursuing the ninja with the rest of security

1 hour ago, Garnascus said:

do not know if i buy you shooting the ninja with lethals because you did not have non-lethals.

... why not? Tasers and rubbers do nothing/minimal damage against ninja hardsuits as far as I am and was aware, and I didn't have anything else to use. Besides, we were ICly told this thing was a 'black military hardsuit.

1 hour ago, Garnascus said:

I am not sure if that is all the HoS's fault here.

No-one's at fault here, honestly. IC attitudes lead to different IC issues, that lead to different IC situations, that get a negative IC resolution due to how people addressed said issues and situations. This is how every round goes, it has a IC narrative with IC conflict. And yet despite this all of this being results of IC, I'm being OOCly punished. If you want to make me change the IC attitudes that started this non-issue, to mold this whole chain to... have less conflict (?), the thing antag rounds thrive and expand on, go right ahead. I'm not saying validhunting and ganking antagonists is justified because 'muh conflict', it's just that I didn't validhunt or gank, I just followed the IC chain of interaction and narrative, or as I believed it's called, roleplay. As a end result of this chain, the ninja suicide bombed themself because previous IC issues lead to me being improperly armed to deal with them. This is entirely IC.

1 hour ago, Garnascus said:

I also do not know if a perma sec ban is appropriate either. You do not really have the notes to justify it.

Mhm. Because I'm not a big scary menace shitsec who just jumps at the chance to kill antags, if I was, my notes would reflect that, and, based on the amount of time I spend on here, I'd already be secbanned. And even if you assess me to be aforementioned shitsec, this would be my first time exhibiting said behaviour. I'm not going to claim to be a 'peaceful officer' but I'm just going to say that I don't think I validhunt.

[Garnascus]

So, anyways as far as im tracking here @DRagO the perma here is suuuuper inappropriate. This seems much closer to an IC issue and even if i assume mogelix was 100% in the wrong it would not stack up to a perma sec ban given his notes. 

[Mogelix]

Sweet. Can I have this unjust ban that seems to have taken way longer to handle then necessary removed, please?

[Lady Fowl]

6 hours ago, Garnascus said:

So, anyways as far as im tracking here @DRagO the perma here is suuuuper inappropriate. This seems much closer to an IC issue and even if i assume mogelix was 100% in the wrong it would not stack up to a perma sec ban given his notes. 

The decision wasn't made by myself alone, as did the others who looked over the issue feel it was ooc driven, however if you feel this was moreso a IC issue I don't have any complaints as long as this doesn't contuine, however I think Abo should put his side into the incident since he was there firsthand.

Edited June 20, 2019 by DRagO

[Mogelix]

5 hours ago, DRagO said:

however I think Abo should put his side into the incident since he was there firsthand.

I'm sorry to say this, and I know you might've been offline for IRL things, but maybe you should've organised this all in the first ten days of my staff complaint? Or, you know, you could've responded more then once?

9 hours ago, Mogelix said:

way longer to handle then necessary

5 hours ago, DRagO said:

as did the others who looked over the issue feel it was ooc driven

I don't care. I just told you all the ways it was ICly driven by the round narrative and conflict.

5 hours ago, DRagO said:

I don't have any complaints as long as this doesn't continue

I have some complaints about you, and honestly I think how you have been handling this situation is completely inappropriate for a member of the staff team. But I'm not going to push on that and call you incompetent or anything rude like that because I can't be bothered to do the nuclear method right now. I just want my secban removed.

Edited June 20, 2019 by Mogelix

[Garnascus]

Attitude aside the ban has been lifted, Locking and archiving.