Why did Tajarans stop being 'scumb'?

[mrimatool]

I may be old fashioned but this always confused me, for the longest time Tajarans weren't allowed head positions AT ALL and were made to stick to simple labour jobs, I mean I can understand the Tajarans in research and medical positions slightly because if you've got a brilliant mind Nanotrasen won't waste it. But Tajarans always had the under dog feel to them, now that's gone. I'm curious as to why this is and what the reasoning was behind it?

[Jamini]

Short Answer:

Different servers, different lore, different players. Tajara can be heads of staff here, and the lore here supports that.

Long Answer:

For the longest time the original creator of the species (Who would be Mister Fox from bay12) really did not care what Tajara did. Tajaran engineers in particular are a rather old tradition stemming from the engineer Fahim. It is a well-known sentiment from many older players that the original Tajaran lore absolutely, utterly, sucked. They were space Khajit in everything but name, with a bunch of bowing, scraping, and sex jokes slapped on. Even their gods were nearly a direct ripoff from TES lore.

As the Tajaran whitelist expanded on bay and Tajara propogated downstream, more and more notable players who played skillful or leadership-oriented Tajaran players began to crop up. My own character was one of those second generation, as was Sue's. The original lore was expanded, altered, revised, and eventually entirely discarded by many servers for alternative lore that was more acceptable. Eventually there was something of a rift between the second-generation Tajaran players and people who, like you, insist on making a species less fun to play. Fox himself was heavily pressured into harassing/dewhitelisting Taj players by certain others who remain unnamed, and eventually stepped down because of this pressure and his actions. This led to the first major baystation rewrite of Tajara by the bay community, and Dragor becoming the Tajaran loremaster for Baystation12. Sue's lore here is, at least partially, derived from that lore rewrite (with a ton of other things that didn't make sense rewritten!). This is by no stretch a bad thing, as her lore is significantly better-written and far more interesting than the "Lolslavecatsdomyworkanddon'ttalkbackever" that many less savory players seem to desire.

Essentially, it is not fun or cool to lock people out of a whole class roles entirely simply because they want to play a different species. As long as a character is justifiable, believable, and recognizable as said species there is simply no excuse to lock them out of a role "just because". If you play a believable cat that can be an excellent CMO, and can justify said cat becoming a CMO... saying "No you can't, because mah lore" simply reeks of dickishness. Doubly so if said CMO Cat has gone through IC as well as OOC hoops to be able to play as CMO. I've personally left my primary server due to this attitude, and I do not believe I will return to them any time soon.

Respectfully

~Jamini, Player Of Nasir Khayyam.

One of the first, and the last, Bay12 Tajaran Chief Engineer.

[Dea Tacita]

As its been mentioned. It caused a bit of an issue with -some- players. And there really wasn't a large-enough percentage of the staff/playerbase that wanted to keep the restrictions to make it worth-while. As long as someone makes a believable character, it doesn't really make much sense to keep players out of most roles.

[Cassie]

Now, I don't have a problem with the Tajara species. I do have a problem with how some Tajaran players conduct themselves, which sort of plays a part in all this leeway-ness. I can't say all Tajaran players are dicks since I've met some lovely ones, but this needs to be said.

Now, I'm sure most of us are familiar with the whole IPC debate on how sentient silicons are and if they can be heads or not. Not only that, IPCs can't even have their own channel due to made up IC-reasons that could easily be circumvented in the same way that Tajaran's lore have been updated. On relations to humans and robots it has indeed been imagined and can be changed just as easily.

When we talk about IPCs and the human relations to them there's a double standard; people instantly jump to "Humans would be paranoid of robots" and "Silicons can't do this, or that" and "Humans would be skeptical of the ability of this or that" where they state IC prejudices (which are totally optional, in the futuristic century we're in out of all of the new species IPCs would have the longest contact with humans) when in reality they are stating their OOC prejudices.

Coming back to Tajaran, Taj players have been given a lot of freedom. I once had someone lecture me on how "races" should be different otherwise everything is just differently skinned humans. This applies to so many other species (most heavily, AIs/cyborgs/IPCs) and often Skrell, but not so much on Tajaran, and occasionally Unathi.

The pattern here is that I find on Baystation, Aurora, and Hypatia is that the lore writers play as those characters (the mystery is why those characters are popular, I have no idea) and don't really give a shit about other characters. A good example is how the IPC lore only got written recently but the lore for Tajaran is an actual novel. People are often dicks OOC'ly and they want to be powerful dicks IC'ly as well, but having subservient RP doesn't quite cut it. The solution - edit it out. That seems to be what has happened here.

Because of this, people will just make their world using their favourite species. They inforce rules harsher on species they dgaf about and allow a bit of RP-dodging via lore update in the gesture of "progression" or "new generation". Whereas less liked species won't ever have that progression and will subsequently get the shaft.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Guest

[Blue]

Because everybody wants to be a hero. Everybody wants to be a supercool Taj. They look at the lore, read about and oppressed, lower class species and think "I'm going to make my character above all that because". Nobody wants to play a low-caste citizen. Nobody wants to play a submissive Taj. So why bother?

Oh and despite the Tajaran race having distinct advantages over humans (claws, temp resistance), and the only downside was not being able to play like 6 jobs out of the plethora they could, the players decided that no disadvantage was necessary at all.

and people get really worked up about it for some reason...

[SgtSammac]

Because everybody wants to be a hero. Everybody wants to be a supercool Taj. They look at the lore, read about and oppressed, lower class species and think "I'm going to make my character above all that because". Nobody wants to play a low-caste citizen. Nobody wants to play a submissive Taj. So why bother?

Oh and despite the Tajaran race having distinct advantages over humans (claws, temp resistance), and the only downside was not being able to play like 6 jobs out of the plethora they could, the players decided that no disadvantage was necessary at all.

and people get really worked up about it for some reason...

They got more worked up about IPC. -.-

[Guest]

Because it's actually kind of !FUN! to have an intelligent Tajaran character as an RD because, gee, they have the potential to be an interesting character.

I have had nothing but good interactions with Tajara. They're always neat to chat with, often amusing, and otherwise more believable characters than the fucking humans are.

Besides, we ended up deciding "Well, if these races get candidacy for head roles and equality, why not advance it for the rest of them?"

And it was made so because the community wanted it.

[Cassie]

They got more worked up about IPC. -.-

 

IPC players had a right. IPCs were terribly bugged. In fact, they don't just have disadvantages from IC reasons but disadvantages from bugs added on top of it because they had been neglected code-wise for quite a while.

 

I have had nothing but good interactions with Taj

This is probably why. I've seen both terrible human and tajaran players. I've had Tajaran threaten to kill my characters over social disputes, another one threatening and trying to dominate my character and pushing them over doing an honest mistake (which was an IC mistake, since if I used the information OOC'ly I would be metagaming, but yes).

 

They're always neat to chat with, often amusing, and otherwise more believable characters than the fucking humans are.

 

I don't get the whole anti-human sentiment I see within a lot of heavy roleplay communities. People are always saying things like "Humans are boring" or "I'm a human in real life I don't want to play as one" which is fair enough. But then they don't want the restrictions of being a non-human yet enforce it on other species but not on the one they like roleplaying as.

On a somewhat related and unrelated note, people want to co-opt with the oppression struggle through RP of being a Tajaran and start referring to Tajaran as a "race" - which is in my opinion, where it gets creepy. Tajaran is not a race, and you cannot have "interracial" relationships or children. They are not a different human race, they are a different alien species - they won't realistically have compatible genomes with us as they don't come from the same evolutionary line etc.

I find this really common, I mean. The amount of "mixed race" children on the server is astounding, and another example of RP-hopping in regards to Tajaran (and Unathi). You won't see people doing this Skrell or Diona.

[Guest]

We have mixed species characters on the server?

Since when?

[Cassie]

We have mixed species characters on the server?

Since when?

People actually have half-Tajaran, half-human chars. Or half Unathi, half Tajaran characters. I won't name names but they know who they are.

[Jamini]

Oh and despite the Tajaran race having distinct advantages over humans (claws, temp resistance), and the only downside was not being able to play like 6 jobs out of the plethora they could, the players decided that no disadvantage was necessary at all.

and people get really worked up about it for some reason...

 

Patently untrue. Tajara have several mechanical downsides. Allow me to list them!

1. Heat vulnerability! - This is huge, especially since low temperatures are very, very rare these days while fires remain an issue as they were! Even in hardsuits, Taj tend to get taken out faster when dealing with fires than other species (except IPCs).

2. Equipment restrictions! - Converting hardsuits and gloves is a time-consuming thing, and makes it very, very, VERY difficult for an unprepared Tajara to hack or go EVA. likewise, 90% of the shoes on the station are inaccessible to them, and going barefoot is a huge disadvantage. Historically Tajara did not spawn with sandals either, which made glass shards FUCKING LETHAL. (I have, in fact, had a nukeop tajara get utterly punked by ZAS and a pile of glass shards in the past.)

3. No stungloves - I'm not certain if they are enabled here or not, but you can't make modified gloves into stungloves. Period.

Now, looking at the advantages:

1. Cold resistance! - This used to be a decent advantage, but now it's pretty much a non-issue. Generally Taj take about 20C temps colder than humans reasonably well. Historically this didn't actually make a damn bit of difference, as the normal "cold" areas were space (and thus close to 0K until space was changed to not be cold).

2. Night vision - This is probably the major advantage of Taj. They get a single unit of brightness at all times. This means they never can "not" see anything unless unconsious. However, it's not really that "visible" unless you happen to have Mesons. Mesons + Taj, however, is quite strong (essentially unlimited-range darkvision).

3. Claws - Honestly? Worthless. If you are fighting unarmed you are far better going for grabs or disarms than using the single extra point of damage on your unarmed attack. Even a crowbar is stronger than alien unarmed attacks. Toolboxes, fire extinguishers, and other basic weapons far outclass unarmed strikes, and have the added advantage of knockdowns if you aim for the head.

4. Unique language - Not even an issue anymore now that Sol Common, Sign Language, Tradeband, and Gutter exist. Even when the trade languages didn't exist, it STILL wasn't a major advantage. Seriously it isn't.

Once again, the uninformed look at something someone else enjoys and try to put it down. If you are going to bitch about Tajara, at least check your facts first.

 

People actually have half-Tajaran, half-human chars. Or half Unathi, half Tajaran characters. I won't name names but they know who they are.

 

In any lore base I've seen this is completely, 100% impossible. Anyone that does this should be spoken too, or have their whitelist evaluated.

Now, Tajara or Unathi who have been adopted or RAISED by humans, I can dig. I've known a few characters like that and I have no issue with that personally. The timeline fits, and humans have a tendency to adopt just about anything they can

.

Edit: I've also been a recent proponent of giving Tajara additional vulnerability to stunning attacks, essentially doubling the time they spend stunned/blinded/deafened by explosions, flashes, flashbangs, and nonlethal weaponry. This is due to the fact that they have very well-developed vision and hearing and would probably not handle bright lights or loud noises well. Such a change, however, is not my decision to make.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Guest

[Dea Tacita]

Sol Common (which I know you removed)

 

We haven't?

[Jamini]

Sol Common (which I know you removed)

 

We haven't?

 

I thought you had? I didn't bother to try it myself, but I was told you didn't have it as default for humans here. If you do, that's even better. Humans should use it more.

":1 Damn filthy catbeasts."

[SierraKomodo]

Sol Common exists. Sai uses it on occasion.

I didn't know the heat issue for Tajarran's was actually coded in game, so I'd always just RP'd that they hated things that made them too warm - Such as wearing her jumpsuit zipped up, sitting in a hardsuit for extended periods, being in a heated room, etc (Rasine being a little more tolerant to hardsuits because of how long she's been doing EVA mining).

Aggression wise, for Ziva and Rasine, it doesn't really have anything to do with species (Except when people start being species-ist [Racist is so much easier to say, always figured it was just used as an easier term for what it really was in this time period], then Rasine will bring out the claws, or Ziva will start getting annoyed.). For Ziva, it's mostly just dealing with the constant stress of people breaking everything during certain shifts, and then opening firelocks and getting themselves vented. Rasine's just an asshole, Tajarran or not. And then there's Miraj, who's only threat to anyone on station is hugging them to death.

I try to play along with the lore as best I can - Rasine's in probably the most stereotypically manual labor-oriented job there is, and she loves it. Ziva's also in a more manual-oriented job, as engineering and focusing on station repairs (She knows shite about electronics and atmos, only enough to help her focus on getting areas repaired and repressurized, and getting to those areas). I've played out that both get their pay docked for relatively stupid reasons, that a human probably wouldn't have to worry about. I know Karima plays things similarly, though that Tajarran is definitely brighter than Ziva is when it comes to technology.

A couple other Tajarran I think play the race well:

Nasir Ha'kim (Aggressive at times, yes, but that's just who he is.)

Jar'eeka ForgotHisLastName (I love this character, btw.)

So not all of us fit the descriptions being made here

[Frances]

I don't see how game balance really fits into this discussion. None of the races really get a distinctly strong advantage mechanics-wise, even less so on a RP server (where combat tends to be more controlled).

As for lore, I think the old lore was lame, but could have been rewritten in a way that still marginalized Tajarans a lot more without making them Khajiit expys. I also think the current lore is pretty cool, because it's actually original.

The main debate to be had (as it usually comes up) is on player freedom vs restrictions to create a cohesive universe. Tajaran heads let Tajaran players experience with more possibilities in positions, personalities, etc. Basically, you're free to create a more diverse character, and aren't "forced" in a specific playstyle (a la "all Tajarans must be submissive and speak in third person" that was once a staple of Bay).

The caveat to this is that certain people will behave like idiots, and you can only limit them so much, because freedom of expression, yo. And in my experience Aurora has always been a "free-er" RP server in that sense, where we let players do what's fun above enforcing blanket policies to curb whatever bad behaviors rise up.

So the upside is you're a little bit more free to do whatever you want with your Tajaran characters. The downside is that so are dumb people with terrible RP ideas.

[Skull132]

Dictating player and IC perception of something is a little shitty. Actually, quite shitty. As such:

If your characters see Taj as scum. Go for it.

If your characters revere Taj. Go for it.

My personal opinion is: I don't care until someone gets in my way, at which point I'll get past them regardless of race, that generally how my characters function.

But whatever you do. Do not impose your OOC viewpoints onto others, and do not chew others out. This goes for both sides. Oh, and this includes metagrudging and continuous ganging up as a behavior, so don't. I've seen this argument escalate to stupid levels OOCly on other servers, and I'd rather not have it happen here. Just like any other race, there are many types of Tajaran. Some are scum, others are high class. Just like any other race, they can be perceived as something invalid by the rest. That's what RP is about. Malright?

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As for why the lore was changed. The previous Tajaran lore was rather flat. As was every other race's lore. They effectively set a very specific way an entire race should conduct itself. This does not happen, never. Not even slavery can cause this. So it was broadened for all races. Unathi lore was redone, etcetera.

[Jamini]

Dictating player and IC perception of something is a little shitty. Actually, quite shitty.

 

This is why I like it here. On Aurora.

[mrimatool]

Dictating player and IC perception of something is a little shitty. Actually, quite shitty. As such:

If your characters see Taj as scum. Go for it.

If your characters revere Taj. Go for it.

My personal opinion is: I don't care until someone gets in my way, at which point I'll get past them regardless of race, that generally how my characters function.

But whatever you do. Do not impose your OOC viewpoints onto others, and do not chew others out. This goes for both sides. Oh, and this includes metagrudging and continuous ganging up as a behavior, so don't. I've seen this argument escalate to stupid levels OOCly on other servers, and I'd rather not have it happen here. Just like any other race, there are many types of Tajaran. Some are scum, others are high class. Just like any other race, they can be perceived as something invalid by the rest. That's what RP is about. Malright?

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As for why the lore was changed. The previous Tajaran lore was rather flat. As was every other race's lore. They effectively set a very specific way an entire race should conduct itself. This does not happen, never. Not even slavery can cause this. So it was broadened for all races. Unathi lore was redone, etcetera.

 

Let me just get this all straightened out, as Skull has just answered my question in his last paragraph. This is the first time I've replied to this thread because all I did was ask a simple question, one that I was generally curious about. I didn't try to push my IC or IRL opinions onto anyone I just asked a question. I was curious as to why Tajaran roles had changed, that was all. Honestly I'm a little disappointed.. In everyone, in no way was this supposed to resort in this kind of 'arguing'. And a few have been quite abrasive about the whole thing.

I think maybe there should be rules for replying to lore questions, the answer should be told, and that's it. It shouldn't resort into an argument about who's way of thinking is right.

[Guest]

You're right in the fact that we detracted from the actual topic.

The straight answer: It's mostly because Tajara weren't particularly interesting enough as subservient underlings. Spess Khajiit (being a bit glib here, thought the ethnicities are very Khajiit-esque) was a bit more interesting in general.

[mrimatool]

Thank you to all the people who gave me a straight answer. I'm locking this thread so that no more arguments come of it, it's rather an unpleasant thing to be a part of.