[Resolved] Science Multiple Jobs - ShesTrying

[T1GWS]

BYOND Key: T1GWS

Staff BYOND Key: ShesTrying

Game ID: b3R-aCZU

Reason for complaint: Disagreement with staff decision. After inquiring about a character ICly ShesTrying bwoinked me for having a character who was capable of both robotics and research and development (roboticist and scientist). The moderator in question then said that it was impossible for member of the crew to have both the qualification necessary to be a roboticist and a scientist and proceeded to shut down the conversation. Of note is that her character was the one to inquire about the skill-set of my character initially (before letting her opinion be known in LOOC and then by admin-talk). This complaint has nothing to do with the moderator in question and is not specific to an individual round as this injunction would apply to all rounds and all characters.

I believe it to be the moderator's opinion that no character would have the qualifications necessary to perform the duties of both a roboticist and a scientist on separate shifts. I resist this claim.

 Evidence/logs/etc: It is of course clear that one character can have multiple jobs on-station (on different shifts). The main source of information regarding this matter is the post regarding multiple jobs: https://forums.aurorastation.org/topic/9293-staff-decision-multiple-jobs-job-hopping-realism-vs-gameplay/

In this post it is made clear that "People are permitted to play within the department to the extent in which they have the qualifications. A Head of Security to Warden is fine. Certain exceptions to the rules apply, such as an Officer going cadet due to lack of slots". While cross-department job postings are allowed, they require staff approval. Of course since 'scientist' and 'roboticist' are in the same department no staff approval is necessary assuming the qualifications are in order. While the rule itself is rather vague, the spirit of the rules is clear: "There's an OOC aspect to it". The goal of these rules, as I understand it, is to prevent one character from getting in the way of other members of the crew or having "extreme" qualifications that would negatively impact the role-play of other players. This begs the question, is a scientist with the ability to be a roboticist "extreme"?

What is a Scientist?: Other than a miserable pile of materials, that is. While the wiki itself defines the qualifications for a scientist as: "At least 25 years of age, PhD from accredited university in applicable field" this is far too vague for any sensible interpretation. The important verbage in this line is "applicable field" and I believe that it is best defined by the observation of the faculties aboard the Aurora. Of course the primary reason for the existence of the station is research into bluespace, which is represented by the telescience lab. Also is the chemistry lab, showing that scientific chemists are welcome in the department. Excluding xeno-archelogy and xeno-biology (which have different job slots) the last two facilities of import are the research and development lab and testing range. The vast difference in these workstations makes clear that the role of the 'scientist' aboard the aurora is rather broad, but it is reasonable to assume that scientists are meant to specialize based on their education (for example a bluespace grad would be working in telescience while a biology grad would be in the chemistry lab). The question at hand is whether or not the aurora would have the faculties to do robotics research, and to this I suggest a resounding 'YES'. In fact with the implementation of circuits in the science labs it is clear that robotics research (of some kind) would be welcome in the labs. It is often the case that you will see scientists building drones with circuits (robotics work).

What of the Robo-man? In contrast with the scientist, the qualifications of the roboticist are: "At least 25 years of age, Engineering or Mechatronics or Robotics degree (Masters preferred)." It seems quite evident that the qualifications of the scientist eclipse that of the roboticist as the minimum of a bachelors degree is far from a PhD. It is suggested both in the requirements and in-game that roboticists serve a more practical role in the station: building and maintaining station-robotics and crew with tools rather than doing actual research. There is no reason to suppose that a researcher could not preform the tasks required of a roboticist if properly trained. As the example in the aforementioned post goes: "A Head of Security to Warden is fine" and thus an "overqualified" crewmember could be placed to a job with a less demanding educational requirement.

What about the Character in Question?: While the moderator that made the decision required no information about the character in question to make said decision, I think it would be a good idea to explain a character that was built from the ground up to play the role of both a roboticist and a scientist aboard the Aurora. Dr. Malthus, 32 years of age, received his Doctorate of Robotic Science from Solis Cognito University about one year before working aboard the Aurora. With a Bachelors of Mechatronic Engineering and a Masters of Applied Mechanical Prosthetics he would be more than capable of fulfilling the roles of a roboticist aboard the Aurora. Dr. Malthus received his doctorate due to his research into mechatronic weapons-systems and their development (the kind you would see produced by a roboticist on the Aurora). In terms of job qualifications he would both be qualified for scientist and roboticist as his doctorate and research has to do with robotics itself. While he could have worked anywhere with the prestige a degree from Solis Cognito comes with, he decided to continue his work aboard the Aurora due to their research into Bluespace. Interested in the applications of this new scientific field, Dr. Malthus accepted a graduate position at Nanotrasen High University for study into bluespace aboard the Aurora. In addition to this research he would perform robotics research and engineering due to his already acquired skills. His current qualifications include:

• Construction/maintenance of mechatronics and cyborgs
• Construction/maintenance of on-station artificial intelligence
•  Installation of external prosthetics(limbs) and assisting with installation of internal prosthetics by medical doctor(Eyes,Heart)
• Research and Development

Notably, even within the role of scientist aboard the Aurora Dr.Malthus is not qualified to experiment with telescience without another scientist to work with due to his education being in progress.

Additional remarks: While I believe it to be obvious that my character would be able to perform the duties of both a roboticist and a scientist ICly, it is important to keep in mind the OOC ramifications. The goal of job-hopping rules is to prevent toe-stepping and extreme conduct and this character has been built and role-played with reasonable restrictions in mind. There have been two cases in which this character has done cross-department work ingame and both times this has been approved by the sitting Research Director and Head of Personnel (one was the tutoring of a Lab assistant in robotics when Dr. Malthus was on duty as a scientist). These qualification are not used to subvert role-play in an extreme manner.

I believe the decision made by the moderator in this case was made rashly and without consideration for the individual nuance all characters (and roleplayers) have and I think that from this point on characters should be judged on a case-by-case basis regarding inter-department job-hopping. There is no indication anywhere in the rules or in the recent multiple jobs post that indicates a scientist-roboticist character would not be fair-play and since the character was built with this in mind I think it is too harsh of a decision to make absolutely and without deliberation.

I understand that this is less of a staff complaint and more of a policy conversation, but I think it stresses the need for more discussion on the matter. I would hate to have to throw out or radically change a character because a staff member made an off-the-cuff decision against them when there is little precedence on the matter. If it is the case that my character does not make for valid role-play (and I would like a serious discussion on why that is), I believe that decision should be recorded and made public so that other players do not make the same mistakes.

Edited October 28, 2019 by ReadThisNamePlz

[Faris]

Since I’m quoted, it would be good if I clarified. The distinction between the two jobs and the inability of scientists has been a thing for a while now, enforced by start.

 

it is possible for a person to spend half their live up to 50 years old to acquire every necessary degree to do both the entire medical and science roles. It is possible to do a lot. This does not mean it’s considered plausible or within of acceptable believability for the server. It’s also bad sportsmanship to create a character that can hog a lot of jobs despite people limiting them. 

 

While the ultimate decision would be up to admins as I’m not an admin anymore, I doubt this staff complaint will do anything as Shestrying is just following a ruling, putting them into the right in regards with the verdict itself.

[ReadThisNamePlz]

Hi,

I will be handling this complaint. 

Edited October 23, 2019 by ReadThisNamePlz

[T1GWS]

6 hours ago, Aboshedab said:

Since I’m quoted, it would be good if I clarified. The distinction between the two jobs and the inability of scientists has been a thing for a while now, enforced by start.

 

it is possible for a person to spend half their live up to 50 years old to acquire every necessary degree to do both the entire medical and science roles. It is possible to do a lot. This does not mean it’s considered plausible or within of acceptable believability for the server. It’s also bad sportsmanship to create a character that can hog a lot of jobs despite people limiting them. 

 

While the ultimate decision would be up to admins as I’m not an admin anymore, I doubt this staff complaint will do anything as Shestrying is just following a ruling, putting them into the right in regards with the verdict itself.

I understand the logic behind the policy. The problem is that in my years of playing on and off, research into forum posts and the wiki prior to making this character, I had not found ANYTHING suggesting that this combination of jobs was not possible. I have been role-playing this character for a few weeks now and despite interacting with multiple RDs none of them have reprimanded this behaviour ICly or OOCly. If this was a policy that has always been enforced, why was it not in your forum posts regarding multiple jobs as an example? It is made clear that staff permission is not required for inter-department jobs so I had no reason to ask them.

Again, while this is a staff complaint I understand that they were enforcing an uncommunicated, and in my opinion unfair, policy.

Edited October 23, 2019 by T1GWS
grammar

[ReadThisNamePlz]

I'm waiting for a response from @ShesTrying before I do anything.

[ShesTrying]

Hey! Sorry for the late reply, working full time sucks :c

 

To give some premise, I was playing my RD, and asked my roboticists if they had any other secondary qualificaitons, imagining circuitry, biomechanics, etc. When T1GWS's character responded with 'RnD', I was concerned. 

 

18 hours ago, T1GWS said:

The moderator in question then said that it was impossible for member of the crew to have both the qualification necessary to be a roboticist and a scientist and proceeded to shut down the conversation.

Admin PMs aren't a place for discussion, and no matter how hard I tried to clarify it with you, the discussion went in circles, so I ended it. I said that it went against staying in your character's knowledge.

 

Playing both robotics and rnd is powergamey. In a lot of instances, the rnd barrier is there so you can't go making your own durands and print the advanced scanners and capacitors yourself. Past that, though, this is a long-time standard that I really am just trying to uphold. 

I am sorry that you've been playing your character for a week or so without it being noticed.

I am sorry that you felt things should have been discussed more in bwoinks.

With that being said, however, your character is in violation of our rules. 

18 hours ago, T1GWS said:

it is important to keep in mind the OOC ramifications.

Exactly. Not only is it not a feel-good moment when, as a scientist, you find out your roboticist has literally no need for you, but by playing both robotics and rnd you cut out the roleplay that can be achieved in the science department in general. 

[T1GWS]

5 minutes ago, ShesTrying said:

Hey! Sorry for the late reply, working full time sucks :c

 

To give some premise, I was playing my RD, and asked my roboticists if they had any other secondary qualificaitons, imagining circuitry, biomechanics, etc. When T1GWS's character responded with 'RnD', I was concerned. 

 

Admin PMs aren't a place for discussion, and no matter how hard I tried to clarify it with you, the discussion went in circles, so I ended it. I said that it went against staying in your character's knowledge.

 

Playing both robotics and rnd is powergamey. In a lot of instances, the rnd barrier is there so you can't go making your own durands and print the advanced scanners and capacitors yourself. Past that, though, this is a long-time standard that I really am just trying to uphold. 

I am sorry that you've been playing your character for a week or so without it being noticed.

I am sorry that you felt things should have been discussed more in bwoinks.

With that being said, however, your character is in violation of our rules. 

Exactly. Not only is it not a feel-good moment when, as a scientist, you find out your roboticist has literally no need for you, but by playing both robotics and rnd you cut out the roleplay that can be achieved in the science department in general. 

I believe this to be a general misunderstanding of both my character and of my role-play style. There may have been a miscommunication about what "secondary skills" meant in reference to your IC questions. I have never, and do not seek to play the role of a scientist when on shift as a roboticist (or vice versa) without a very good OOC reason. My IC response to your question was due to the fact that there were two roboticists on duty and no scientists (excluding you the RD) and was meant to give notice that my character would be able to have their job swapped ICly (through the HoP) if it was needed. As I say in my first post, the only cases in which I have done research and roboticts duties on the same shift is when there is not the opposing role and when it is asked of my by an RD (this also heavily suggests that these RDs are okay with this behaviour and role-play).

If you got the impression that my character plays both the role of a scientist and roboticist in one shift there may have been a miscommunication on my side that I apologise for. I well understand that the job the character has during a shift should not be extended without proper IC and OOC causes. It is similar to a security officer having paramedic training in that while it is allowed the character is not supposed to act as a paramedic while in the ISD or vice versa. If my character is assigned as a roboticist one shift then I do my absolute best not to infringe on the roleplay on scientists and never have so far.

Because it seems like this discussion started under a miscommunication, I would like to answer any further questions you have regarding my role-play if needed.

[ShesTrying]

The issue isn't that you're job-hopping in-round, it's that you're job hopping between robotics and rnd at all. 

 

It's against the rules, and it's been against the rules since long before I became a trial mod. Unfortunatly, it's not a matter of how good your roleplay is. It just isn't allowed.

[ReadThisNamePlz]

Right, hello. I'll be posting my ruling now.

@ShesTrying was enforcing a policy that we have in place, to prevent power-gaming. Having a character, that can work as a roboticist and a scientist, just isn't acceptable OOCly. It opens up too many doorways for possible power-gaming. While you presented many good points and have clearly thought this character out, icly. OOCly, we just don't allow it. 

@Aboshedab put it into words, better than I ever could.

Quote

"It is possible for a person to spend half their live up to 50 years old to acquire every necessary degree to do both the entire medical and science roles. It is possible to do a lot. This does not mean it’s considered plausible or within of acceptable believability for the server. It’s also bad sportsmanship to create a character that can hog a lot of jobs despite people limiting them. "

While yes, it is possible, it just isn't believable here. Why would NanoTrasen hire you as a Scientist/Roboticist? Why not just make you an RD?  

Regarding the part about the conversation being ended abruptly, an Adminhelp (ticket) is not meant for conversations, or arguments. 

Overall. We're going to continue following our policy. You will need to rework your character, and pick one of the two jobs, or just make them a Research Director, via command whitelist application. 

I am going to leave this open for the next twentyfour hours, but my mind is not going to change on this. Enjoy your day! ^-^

[T1GWS]

17 minutes ago, ReadThisNamePlz said:

Right, hello. I'll be posting my ruling now.

@ShesTrying was enforcing a policy that we have in place, to prevent power-gaming. Having a character, that can work as a roboticist and a scientist, just isn't acceptable OOCly. It opens up too many doorways for possible power-gaming. While you presented many good points and have clearly thought this character out, icly. OOCly, we just don't allow it. 

@Aboshedab put it into words, better than I ever could.

While yes, it is possible, it just isn't believable here. Why would NanoTrasen hire you as a Scientist/Roboticist? Why not just make you an RD?  

Regarding the part about the conversation being ended abruptly, an Adminhelp (ticket) is not meant for conversations, or arguments. 

Overall. We're going to continue following our policy. You will need to rework your character, and pick one of the two jobs, or just make them a Research Director, via command whitelist application. 

I am going to leave this open for the next twentyfour hours, but my mind is not going to change on this. Enjoy your day! ^-^

I understand the decision and am going to accept it. Thank you for the time to at least considering a policy change or exception.

Reguarding moving forward, I would like you to clarify what you mean when you say "make them a research director". My character would only fit the requirements for RD if education counts as "experience" as 10 years of experience is needed. This is something I would like you to clarify. I agree that my character might work better as an RD and was planning to eventually apply but as I have been getting back into Aurora I put it off.

Furthermore, I would like to see this policy you and other staff have referred to reflected in a permanent form. I questioned the validity of my character and had no way to find this policy on the wiki or in the forums.

[ReadThisNamePlz]

59 minutes ago, T1GWS said:

I understand the decision and am going to accept it. Thank you for the time to at least considering a policy change or exception.

Reguarding moving forward, I would like you to clarify what you mean when you say "make them a research director". My character would only fit the requirements for RD if education counts as "experience" as 10 years of experience is needed. This is something I would like you to clarify. I agree that my character might work better as an RD and was planning to eventually apply but as I have been getting back into Aurora I put it off.

Furthermore, I would like to see this policy you and other staff have referred to reflected in a permanent form. I questioned the validity of my character and had no way to find this policy on the wiki or in the forums.

It's not hard written, but I discussed it with the other admins in our chat. I'll see if we can get something made to specify this policy clearly to the playerbase.

Regarding your question on the RD suggestion, I said to rework the character, you can easily change them up to have had a history with NT, make them older, etc. Or, just pick one of the two jobs and scrap the qualifications of the other job. It's your character, you are free to do what you will. As long as it obeys the rules and policies we have, of course.