Don't enforce paperwork in obligatory game areas.

[Cassie]

Now, I'm aware that paperwork is enjoyable to a lot of people, especially to type A anal retentive personalities. Some people just enjoy it OOC'ly, some don't. I'd say it's somewhat of a 50/50 thing if I had to guess.

For me, I strongly disdain paperwork, but I don't judge other people's desire for it. So if I do need a character who wants an ID change or something from QM, I'll just begrudging fill it OOC'ly and have my character act cool about it. Now, I am aware of the simplicity of some paperwork simply being just [sign] and some being more complex with long data entries but I find paperwork very annoying. I understand the concept of it being in high-risk areas and I don't contest that, and those areas/things I avoid playing so I don't have to do paperwork.

Maybe I'm not in a majority, who knows?

If I am having a bad or tedious day, I worked as a data admin for four years, also I work as an administrator somewhere else and now I tell you I dislike forms of bearocracy, even the sight of it. But hey, if that's for your immersion, I won't judge it. I'll just OOC'ly avoid situations where I have to fill in paperwork and leave it to people who enjoy that thing.

The actual problem:

On one shift, the exit from arrivals to the main station was shut off. Someone decided to be anal retentive this shift and make everyone do paperwork at the security checkpoint to "register to get into the station", forcing everyone who entered the game via arrivals to do paperwork.

Not only is this inconsistent with the other shifts, this is basically putting me in a situation where I cannot avoid paperwork - even if it would be simple to just let my character sigh and get on with it, but this time I decided to put my foot down because OOC'ly I don't think this should be happening. Plus, the current character I was playing was the perfect candidate to raise a stink about it - so that's what I did, before getting cuffed and tossed in the centcom brig with no RP afterward. Y'know?

Generally, I'm fine with the fact that a HRP server has paperwork (really, generally paperwork generating machines or fingerprint/facial scanners would make sense in the future but that's not sadistic enough for you even though I'm sure the future has epic ways of generating forged signatures) but please, please, please do not force it on everyone.

Not everyone likes paperwork, I personally go out of my way to avoid it, so please don't force it on me. It's not fair, it does not increase my gameplay experience and I'm sure many will agree with me.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Guest

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

My philosophy:

If it covers asses, like with job change paperwork, it's good. If it makes security's job easier, like case reports putting all evidence of a long-running investigation in one place for the HoS to see, it's good.

If it adds nothing, it's bad. IE, the arrivals checkpoint paperwork. that stuff is dumb. We already have a manifest, we can cross-reference it.

[Gollee]

For me, I strongly disdain paperwork, but I don't judge other people's desire for it.

Now, I'm aware that paperwork is enjoyable to a lot of people, especially to type A anal retentive personalities.

 

No.

In that round in question, your character decided to, instead of literally signing a register to enter a secure facility, which is done the world over now, they were going to go as far as insulting the officer who was seeking the signature.

If your boss as a Data admin was to suddenly enforce a register, they would be entirely in their right to do so; their workplace, their rules; if the captain wants to do this, it is also fine, it isn't breaching space law, it isn't breaching SoP.

If I was to go up to the gate of the military base I lived on, and tried to go in, then screamed at them for trying to make me do paperwork; note, these are not police officers, and are unarmed. They would be entirely in their rights to call backup personnel; up to and including putting me somewhere while the police arrive, put me on the curb, or call the police to arrest me for attempted access to a security facility and causing a public disturbance.

On station, they can't put you to the curb, unless you can breathe vacuum; and they can't really call the ERT, the closest thing to police in the game, to deal with an assistant having a hissy fit over having to sign their name on a register; in effect, legally stating that you have arrived, so they are in their full rights allowed to arrest you for illegal entry to a secure facility, as you have not made your arrival official through the register, meaning you aren't crew, you are tresspassing, and you tresspassed deliberately.

[Cassie]

Gollee, I don't care about the IC matters of that round. Because this topic isn't about that round - it's about OOC players and how paperwork is OOC'ly distributed among IC. IC is very flexible, you know?

Secondly, my point stands. Gameplay-wise, I believe the arrivals checkpoint shouldn't have happened out of courtesy. Paperwork should be kept to areas where it is essential for it's function, and I'm not here to debate what my character should've done because roleplay it's totally flexible like that. I accept the IC consequences of the round and what happened, but again, this topic isn't specific to that round.

Honestly, the whole thing was completely optional from an IC and OOC perspective, so that's why this topic exists. With most workplaces, entering with your ID and having your face match the ID is enough to get you in.

Why? I worked for DWP (The UK's department of work and pensions, a government facility) and I can say no such process actually exists for ID-wearing personnel (signatures), despite the high security. Considering this is the 21st century and they have their own security protocols, I don't think the arrivals checkpoint thing makes sense from a security process.

[Guest]

How exactly does the checkpoint improve the round, OOCly?

How does the checkpoint add to the enjoyment you can get from the round?

Is there any reason for the checkpoint to be there, other than giving angry people who play Sec an excuse to brig people for minor things?

Marking someone as Valid Salad and throwing them in the brig seconds after they leave the arrivals shuttle can only serve to alienate new players, and make players who haven't set their spawn point to cryo capsules annoyed. There's clearly a line where the hunt for valid arrests needs to stop, and this checkpoint has passed it.

[Gollee]

How exactly does the checkpoint improve the round, OOCly?

If done correctly, it welcomes new players to the shift, and can give them needed information.

 

How does the checkpoint add to the enjoyment you can get from the round?

It gives bored officers something to do, it can direct assistants to where they are needed; it can add something different, without antags to a round.

 

Is there any reason for the checkpoint to be there, other than giving angry people who play Sec an excuse to brig people for minor things?

See above, it has nothing to do with angry sec, all the new arrivals need to do is sign a single form, then they are on station, possibly with more information. A sec officer that arrest someone who signed in fairly, is going to be in trouble. Sec isn't always bad.

 

Marking someone as Valid Salad and throwing them in the brig seconds after they leave the arrivals shuttle can only serve to alienate new players, and make players who haven't set their spawn point to cryo capsules annoyed. There's clearly a line where the hunt for valid arrests needs to stop, and this checkpoint has passed it.

Arresting someone who is too unstable to even sign a register is a good thing; new players will either go along with it, as they will listen to what information they recieve, or they will be confused, Ahelp, and it will be sorted; it is only when someone repeatedly insults the officer, and shows less restraint than a five year old that they would be brigged.

[Cassie]

Arresting someone who is too unstable to even sign a register is a good thing

I am legit speechless. This is precisely what I'm talking about.

Can we cut that "OOC'ly weeding youse bad people out!!!!" ideology out? It doesn't work in practice. If I was a griefer who wanted to fuck up the station I'd just roll with it and fuck up the station inside. It's really that simple. I wouldn't actually take time to roleplay a tired, skeptical and disgruntled assistant at the checkpoint having an argument with the officer and offering to see the IAA, would I?

[Guest]

Arresting someone who is too unstable to even sign a register is a good thing; new players will either go along with it, as they will listen to what information they recieve, or they will be confused, Ahelp, and it will be sorted; it is only when someone repeatedly insults the officer, and shows less restraint than a five year old that they would be brigged.

 

So, a new player will be forced to be nice to your character one minute after joining the server for the first time, or be shoved in the brig and possibly demoted?

This just looks like using excessive OOC force to punish characters who ICly insult your character, not to mention it gives an unwhitelisted position the authority of a pseudo-admin and literal gatekeeper for the server.

Being ICly rude to someone's character shouldn't be justification to OOCly label the player as "Too toxic to play on the server" and condemn him to some sort of bizzare confinement for the collective good of the community.

[Skull132]

How's about we all slow the hell down, and wait for someone who actually organized this checkpoint to speak up, and lay out their reasoning?

Because none of your organized it. None of you know the intent, from what it looks like, and are all speculating.

So. Let's slow our roll and see what they have to say, before continuing towards any specific target, alright?

[LordFowl]

I would just like to note that I was extremely hesitant when it came to arresting people; in fact I only arrested people who were actively bypassing the checkpoint in extreme ways; E.G., the engineer who was tearing down walls, or if they were obstructing the procedure to the point where it couldn't function, E.G. the assistant who kept trying to bumrush the blast doors, or distracting me from processing other characters. The procedure was not an excuse to arrest people, and it was not my intent nor did I particularly enjoy it when it had to happen. I did not arrest people who insulted the customs officer, nor people who argued with it (Up to a certain point). If there had been an IAA online at the time, I'm sure the issue with the assistant would've been resolved ICly in a more satisfactory way, but since I was no professor of space law ICly or OoCly, it dragged on.

While I don't blame you in any way, and can understand your motivation, I would just like to note that your IC dickishness ultimately resulted in the entire system folding in on itself, screwing everybody over. I'm thinking of ways to better solve problems like this; and its not an OoC problem and I'm not encouraging you to stop being an IC dick just to make other people's IC life easier.

On the topic of processing new players; this also was not my goal and it actually caught me wholly unexpected. I had the opportunity to interact with two new players for the shift, and I tried to help them ICly and OoCly, but I had no contingency plan for this, and as such I think they could've been helped with in a better fashion.

In the end, I wanted to do this firstly to test the blast doors; because their addition interested me. (Their access levels however irritate me. The primary issue with the system was relying on the AI, who sometimes had eyes elsewhere, to open the doors). Secondly, I did it because I thought I would enjoy it; I enjoy mechanizing things, and expanding on IC procedures that are skipped over due to gaming conventions. I play a character that as a xenobiologist carefully tries to examine the mental and physical anatomy of the slimes in ways that are purely roleplay, because they have no game parallels. I meticulously observe every action the slimes take and try to apply meaning to it. Call it 'anal retentiveness' if you like (please don't.), but ultimately I find it enjoyable. I like to think that some other people do too. Not everyone, because in the end you won't please everyone, and that is not a critical flaw. In the end this project of mine does indeed have a few flaws. However, I will not abandon it because it is flawed; I will not throw the baby out with the bathwater, so as to speak. I will continue to modify it to try and please as many people as I can. However, this process is one of compromise; I cannot please people who refuse to be pleased. I with-hold judgement on the idea of making a big and ostensibly ridiculous big IC fuss over a signature, a reaction that is really just OoC prejudice concentrated into IC action, I merely say that if your ultimate goal is enjoyment, instead of stubbornly digging your heels in and refusing to give an inch, you might give just a little? I'd settle for a half-inch. However, if you enjoyed the results of you digging your heels in, then power to you. I'm not one to obstruct anyone's enjoyment.

[Doomberg]

So, some context: There was a suspected virus on board. We were instructed to warn new arrivals of it as they entered. Hence, yes, the checkpoint actually served a purpose, to my knowledge.

[LordFowl]

That is not however the reason the checkpoint was set up. It was set up merely to process people; the system was in place for the system to be in place. It is merely that the responsibility of informing new arrivals of the plague fell naturally upon the arrival's checkpoint.

[Dea Tacita]

Right.

I'm moving this thread to the General board, as it's not suggesting we change something integrated into the game in any meaningful way. Staff doesn't encourage or control this behavior really, and it's more of a "I feel like we shouldn't do this because X" thread.

If you have a suggestion to remove the checkpoint, it'd go on the Suggestion board

If you have a complaint about the characters who organized this, Complaint board.

Otherwise, carry on!

[Cassie]

While I don't blame you in any way, and can understand your motivation, I would just like to note that your IC dickishness ultimately resulted in the entire system folding in on itself, screwing everybody over. I'm thinking of ways to better solve problems like this; and its not an OoC problem and I'm not encouraging you to stop being an IC dick just to make other people's IC life easier.

But while we're on the subject let's just say I would never grief or try to actively harm any personnel on shift because I'm not a fan of doing that (you'll find any arrests made to any characters of mine are all non-assault IC fluff arrests). I would totally agree if I was just there shouting and trying to hurt your officer but that's not what happened. She threw a huff and said "I refuse to comply!", and tried to leave in her stubborn way, that is totally an IC dick but it's really nothing.

In comparison to OOC dickishness that I'm often subjected to as well as the fact that security/heads is flooded with IC dicks with power - that's the deal that makes everything different.

 

Call it 'anal retentiveness' if you like (please don't.), but ultimately I find it enjoyable. I like to think that some other people do too. Not everyone, because in the end you won't please everyone, and that is not a critical flaw. In the end this project of mine does indeed have a few flaws. However, I will not abandon it because it is flawed; I will not throw the baby out with the bathwater, so as to speak. I will continue to modify it to try and please as many people as I can. However, this process is one of compromise; I cannot please people who refuse to be pleased.

I think it's a pointless IC mechanic and that's fine if you like it personally, not here to contest that. I just don't want to enter the game and have to go through that process every single time someone decides it's cool and decides to do it some random round. It's annoying and that's what this topic is about.

 

I with-hold judgement on the idea of making a big and ostensibly ridiculous big IC fuss over a signature, a reaction that is really just OoC prejudice concentrated into IC action, I merely say that if your ultimate goal is enjoyment, instead of stubbornly digging your heels in and refusing to give an inch, you might give just a little? I'd settle for a half-inch. However, if you enjoyed the results of you digging your heels in, then power to you. I'm not one to obstruct anyone's enjoyment.

Yes, but honestly. I'm not here to step on your toes, as I said - if I could avoid all the mechanics that make you guys happy I honestly would and that's what I do. I don't like the responsibility of head roles - I don't apply for head whitelist. I don't like paperwork - I try not to need QM or HoP for things. etc.

OOC prejudice? Maybe. But I don't see why anyone has to sign a signature on arrival to their own workplace and it is both IC and OOC'ly a headache and a waste of my time. I really never got the huge sexual interest everyone has with paperwork. If this does become a common thing I'll simply set all my characters spawn points to cryogenic revival, then we all win.

But this is technically forcing something that people are often very split on, onto everyone. And yes, this affects my gameplay experience so I feel I should say something about it, because y'know I can?

[TishinaStalker]

So, what exactly was this paperwork that you had to do? What did you have to fill in at the checkpoint?

[incognitojesus]

So, what exactly was this paperwork that you had to do? What did you have to fill in at the checkpoint?

The process at the checkpoint (from my experience) was literally, walk up to the window, put your ID on the counter, the officer filled in your information on a form (which took about five seconds), and then all you had to do was sign and then you were buzzed in.

EDIT: I'd also like to point out that it wasn't just IC disgruntlement that Cassie displayed, but in OOC as well.

[Cassie]

So, what exactly was this paperwork that you had to do? What did you have to fill in at the checkpoint?

The process at the checkpoint (from my experience) was literally, walk up to the window, put your ID on the counter, the officer filled in your information on a form (which took about five seconds), and then all you had to do was sign and then you were buzzed in.

EDIT: I'd also like to point out that it wasn't just IC disgruntlement that Cassie displayed, but in OOC as well.

Yes, but that's missing the point of this topic. I'm tired of the bureaucracy "gameplay" in general, and if I can't avoid any form of unnecessary paperwork I'd rather not play. Even if it's the simplest paperwork ever I just refuse. It's repetitive, annoying and stupid and should only be left to the players who like it.

Secondly, the OOC disgruntlement was displayed post-round, I'm not particularly angry to say, but irritated much so.

[TishinaStalker]

Hold on, so you're complaining and getting irritated at everything that is paperwork because of the fact that all you had to was type in [/sign]?

[Cassie]

Hold on, so you're complaining, and getting irritated at everything that is paperwork because of the fact that all you had to was type in [/sign]?

Yes, I don't want any part of it. I dislike paperwork so much that I'd actually dread arriving on the station if this sort of thing was actually a common theme. There's no point of it IC'ly and I've explained why I don't like it so I don't like repeating myself.

It's not like I actually walked up to something IC'ly and chose to partake in something that needed paperwork. Paperwork at this point was essentially required to partake in the server if you think about it, and through that I would call it roleplay grief for people who really, really dislike paperwork. Paperwork was always the marmite of HRP servers. I dislike paperwork, what's wrong with that?

People need to satisfy their sexual fetish for paperwork in the HOP office where it belongs. It's a slippery slope from here, that's why I voiced my opinion here.

[Dea Tacita]

Yes, I don't want any part of it. I dislike paperwork so much that I'd actually dread arriving on the station if this sort of thing was actually a common theme.

 

I'm not one to judge, but this just sounds like you being picky and unreasonable. You're fine with typing out huge, detailed paragraphs for the sake of RP, but when someone wants to ensure IDs are valid, you refuse to type six digits?

 

There's no point of it IC'ly

 

You've recently arrived on a High-Tech research station, one owned by probably the most hated corporation in all of Human existence. An extremely quick security check, to verify your Identity and ensure you're who you say you are makes perfect sense to me, and just about everyone else I've talked to about this...

 

I dislike paperwork, what's wrong with that?

 

Absolutely nothing... Up until the point where you demand people change their reasonable, IC actions for your satisfaction.

[Cassie]

I'm not one to judge, but this just sounds like you being picky and unreasonable. You're fine with typing out huge, detailed paragraphs for the sake of RP, but when someone wants to ensure IDs are valid, you refuse to type six digits?

 

Yep. What about it?

You've recently arrived on a High-Tech research station, one owned by probably the most hated corporation in all of Human existence. An extremely quick security check, to verify your Identity and ensure you're who you say you are makes perfect sense to me, and just about everyone else I've talked to about this...

Name one establishment that has ID cards on employees that enforces this ridiculous procedure every shift. Because I guarantee you won't find a single one. Consider you're talking to someone who has worked in a government building that holds classified information, this sounds ridiculous. We use photo ID cards. That's it. If security has any doubts at the gates, they ask for an examination of said ID card.

High tech facilities have ID scanners and occasionally fingerprint/voice scanners.

Buildings like hostels, hospitals and youth centres or places of work that have work exp employees that aren't registered on their system do this to unregistered people/visitors for security and fire safety - but we have a crew manifest that instantly lets you know who is on station.

 

Absolutely nothing... Up until the point where you demand people change their reasonable, IC actions for your satisfaction.

It's the other way around, isn't it?

[Dea Tacita]

Yep. What about it?

 

It's unreasonable. All I really see is "I DON'T LIKE WHAT PEOPLE ARE DOING. CHANGE!" Which just comes off as downright childish.

 

Name one establishment that has ID cards on employees that enforces this ridiculous procedure every shift. Because I guarantee you won't find a single one. Consider you're talking to someone who has worked in a government building that holds classified information, this sounds ridiculous. We use photo ID cards. That's it. If security has any doubts at the gates, they ask for an examination of said ID card.

 

The Hospital I worked at, my last job at the Naval yard and.... just about every job I've had.

 

but we have a crew manifest that instantly lets you know who is on station.

 

And software can be manipulated. This allows Sec to just send a Fax to Centcom to verify the members of the crew and pick-out anyone who wasn't legitimately assigned.

 

It's the other way around, isn't it?

 

No, No it's not.

They are NOT forcing you to abandon anything that makes sense ICly (Apologies if your character is based around refusing to sign paperwork). They're not throwing you in a backroom, strip searching you without a warrant and imprisoning you. They're politely, and considerately telling you to show your ID to them, and write your name down.

[ZipZero]

I think there are two things that need to be determined here.

One, what is the purpose of paperwork?

And two, does requiring a person to fill out a particular form before being allowed to work fulfill that purpose?

[Guest]

Let me just start out by saying that in the course of your entire life (Read as: REAL LIFE OH BOI), no matter what occupation you go into, you're going to have to do paperwork, one way or another. It's going to seem like it's utterly fucking stupid and pointless, but believe it or not, it has a purpose.

Would you like to be that one guy who gets 30 minute brigged by security for making Durands or Gygaxes without filing out paperwork and getting a head's express permission?

Paperwork shows that:

 

• That you are willing to go through the necessary procedures and follow guidelines so you can get what you want, or get what needs done, done.
• That you actually bothered to inform someone of what you want or need to get done
  
• And that someone either approved or oversaw actions that took place before or after an action.

 

Believe it or not, paperwork is going to SAVE your ass more than it's going to hurt you. If someone wants paperwork done, just fucking do it, it takes like, what, two minutes tops? Can you bear to wait to RP with your friends for two minutes longer?

[Cassie]

Would you like to be that one guy who gets 30 minute brigged by security for making Durands or Gygaxes without filing out paperwork and getting a head's express permission?

Can you read the original post again because that's not what I am talking about. I don't care about that kind of paperwork. I'm talking about unavoidable arrivals paperwork. I don't like paperwork in general but I don't really care if the HOP or the roboticist or wherever has paperwork.

 

It's unreasonable. All I really see is "I DON'T LIKE WHAT PEOPLE ARE DOING. CHANGE!" Which just comes off as downright childish.

That's what you're trying to reduce it to, but quite frankly; I already explained that I don't have a problem with paperwork if other people are doing it. I have a problem with obligatory paperwork I cannot avoid. That is a very tiny thing to ask for a useless game mechanic which doesn't really have much benefit or change to the server gameplay other than wasting a minute or two in a pointless queue at game start.

 

The Hospital I worked at, my last job at the Naval yard and.... just about every job I've had.

Are you confusing the sign-in, sign-out process with the identification process? Because it sounds like it.

Firstly. The Hospital would have a signature to check for fire safety and attendance (which is required by law) because they need to check what employees have come into work today and who to evacuate during a fire drill. This is also for attendance noting. Not for security. Facial picture ID cards are for security.

SS13 employees are already IC'ly signed into the system and appear on the crew manifest which implies that before they were sent by the shuttle they have a registration of some kind (likely by Centcom).

Secondly this would not be enforceable in any degree because people can just set arriving from the cryogenic chambers, which is something I plan to do in future to avoid this kind of thing. Unless you plan to put a checkpoint there - not really efficient IC'ly if you ask me.

 

And software can be manipulated. This allows Sec to just send a Fax to Centcom to verify the members of the crew and pick-out anyone who wasn't legitimately assigned.

Wow this pointless IC mechanic really makes me feel excited! Especially when it's not here every shift. Especially when the AI and/or security members could be fucking off and/or absent just like the HOP! This is so exciting tell me more! Tell how to roleplay the cognitive dissonance of the inconsistency! Whenever I type [sign] into the message box my heart skips a beat! I run down the hallways with the many anticipated wonders of standing in my department doing my exciting repetitive IC job!

This is just such a great idea I can't wait for everyone to start roleplaying this mechanic despite the mismatch of the errors it has as stated in the previous paragraphs!

Horrible sarcasm aside, the whole paperwork thing is an example of many things wrong with the disturbed game mechanics of this server, so don't think I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. The straw broke the camel's back, to say.

 

No, No it's not. And I'm growing tired of this stubbornness. You're not going to find many people here who agree with your point, because you don't have one. Your personal feelings aside, this isn't an issue.

They are NOT forcing you to abandon anything that makes sense ICly (Apologies if your character is based around refusing to sign paperwork). They're not throwing you in a backroom, strip searching you without a warrant and imprisoning you. They're politely, and considerately telling you to show your ID to them, and write your name down.

 

Well, I'm growing tired of this issue, imagine that? I have a point, I'm not the only person who feels the same way as I do - I'm simply the only person who is willing to be made into curried lamb if I can get my point across. If you don't agree with me, fine. But my topic is here, what I said is said, and my feelings are reasoned, valid and justified.