Don't enforce paperwork in obligatory game areas.

[Guest]

Once again, we're citing real-life examples to attempt to justify as though we shouldn't be doing paperwork in a workplace environment that is constantly bombarded with; creatures that chase gnomes like it's a girl with a short skirt, crew that can suck blood and turn others into thralls, our daily Syndicate terrorist attack, magical space men, and so on and so forth.

If people actually take it upon themselves to use the fucking checkpoint and actually process people, all the power to them. There is no point in complaining about something that could just as easily be circumvented by spawning via cryogenics storage. Done, now you don't /have/ to waste time if you don't fucking want to. The end, issue resolved because you didn't want to fucking do paperwork.

[Frances]

You guys are missing the point again.

We don't care about IC. We don't care about realism, or what people do in real-life. We don't care about how the specific instance here can be circumvented, or how annoying or not it is. We care about the specific instance existing.

This thread, as far as I can see, what created to discuss a gameplay issue, which is that people shouldn't be forced into doing needless paperwork. Conversation should be focused on that, yet most of the posts I see are about how it's a minor issue, or that people do it irl, or idk what else.

[Guest]

SS13 employees are already IC'ly signed into the system and appear on the crew manifest which implies that before they were sent by the shuttle they have a registration of some kind (likely by Centcom).

Secondly this would not be enforceable in any degree because people can just set arriving from the cryogenic chambers, which is something I plan to do in future to avoid this kind of thing. Unless you plan to put a checkpoint there - not really efficient IC'ly if you ask me.

 

Cryogen crew are considered to have been already processed, as they are not coming from off station, but an assumed cryogenic storage area within the station itself.

On another note, this isn't a round by round issue, so I'd say get over it. It is up to the Captain on a round-by-round basis if they wish to institute this process, if they wanted, they could make you fill out paperwork for ordering drinks, using the holodeck, or even taking a break from work.

[Cassie]

The point of why I brought up the topic (back then, I didn't actually think of spawning in cryo storage) is because I just feel that there's going to be a time where this server is literally going to be "Workplace and Bureaucracy Simulator 2.0" and there's no role, no position and no type of thing that I can do to avoid it.

For people who like, or don't mind paperwork this may sound ridiculous but good for you. I've been avoiding this nonsense so far trying to not couch any anyone else's fun in regards to it. Until now I haven't said anything against it, I tolerated and just didn't bother the people distributing paperwork, so that's why I get peeved if I feel that someone is inventing new and wonderful ways to "spread paperwork to everyone", like, putting it in arrivals. One day I might not get to find a way to avoid this, and that makes me annoyed.

If that day ever does come along with other things, I'll just retire playing. Yep, it's that bad. But then again, considering things that might be a hallelujah from some people in the audience so that won't be a bad thing right? So that's a good old tip for you.

Anyway, since we're going that route, just a few more unavoidable paperwork suggestions that I consider to be excellent additions to the spirit of the server:

Computer Use Form (to make sure that misuse of the computers are prevented, we have this kind of thing in my local library):

Name:
Department:
Reason:

Stamp from head:

Signature:

 

Appearance Change Form (To keep records on character identity safe before using mirrors and lipsticks so sec knows what everyone looks like):

Name:
Former Appearance (hair, makeup, clothes):
Current Appearance (hair, makeup, clothes):
What is the reason for this change?:
Do you intend to intiate coitus on station?: (y/n)
Stamp from head:

Signature:

 

Breathing Form (to regulate the air of the server):

Name:
Why did you take this breath?:
How long did this breath last?:
Do you have any diseases that you need to inform us about?:
What gas(es) did you inhale (state exact proportions):
Stamp from head:

Signature:

[Frances]

I can 100% get behind Cassie, btw.

If a HoP started forcing his or her officers to write detailed arrest reports for every little thing that happened during a round, security would spend more time writing forms in the brig than patrolling. Point is, they'd get chewed out by a large part of the community right away.

What happened here is simply a minor form of this. We don't force people to register through the checkpoint because

 

• 1. It's sort of tedious (if only slightly)
  
  2. It's not something we can enforce regularly (need somebody assigned to do it)
  
  3. It's terribly boring for the person in charge of it
  
  4. As a final nail in the coffin, it brings little to nothing interesting to the round

 

Whenever an activity encompasses any of these first three characteristics, as well as characteristic #4, it is safe to say it's not an activity which players should be subjected to. In addition, one final weirdness is that due to the impossibility of securing a checkpoint volunteer every round, you shouldn't really make something a rule without good reason. So you have a situation where people expect to come in to work every morning without having to check in, and suddenly get in trouble for not doing so because we found somebody willing to do it for once. It just... seems weird. If you actually want to change a rule for a round, you're usually expected to have an in-round reason, say that you've been getting non-registered intruders coming through arrivals or whatnot.

 

On another note, this isn't a round by round issue, so I'd say get over it. It is up to the Captain on a round-by-round basis if they wish to institute this process, if they wanted, they could make you fill out paperwork for ordering drinks, using the holodeck, or even taking a break from work.

Requesting staff demand verbal (radio) permission is okay. Having people fill paperwork for any of these things is ridiculous.

[VoltageHero]

This thread is so aggressive in some parts, it's not even funny. I'm going to be blunt about the issue, and upon re-reading it, I realized that I came off as amazingly aggressive, which was actually part of my intention, believe it or not.

My biggest complaint is this.

This isn't going to change either way. Paperwork is still going to be used exactly as the same as it was before. People can, in the end do whatever they want.

Now, discussion is fine, but keep this is in mind. If people don't want to change, they won't. Ever.

Lets take this out from an isolated event. Not this round, don't even think about it for a second. It's gone. Poof.

As stated on by Fowl (pg.1), not everybody is going to be happy with paperwork, and not everybody is going to be upset. That is what it boils down to. You can talk about how it shouldn't be here, and why it should be here, but in the end, somebody will still be upset with it.

Why? Because some people will be upset that they have to do it. Others will be upset because there isn't enough of it. If you ask me, this isn't an issue that should even be a thread, as the public opinion on it will not change.

Should it change? No-siree-bob. If it changes, people are going to be even more angry over the changes. As it stands, find ways around paperwork if you don't want to sign. Let people write up paperwork if they want. Why? Because it makes them happy. The goal of the server shouldn't be to cater to everybody, but to ensure people are having fun. Don't change something because (x) doesn't like it. That's not good.

At the same time, what should you do about enforced paperwork? Step back and look at it from a realistic standpoint (oh no, realism). Does it make sense? Yes or no? If your answer is yes, then do it. If no, then RPly do something about it, because in the end, it's an IC interaction. Is it fun? No. Should it be fun? No. Complain ICly. Tell them what they're doing is wrong, file a report with the IAA, talk to a Head.

The reason this shouldn't have been brought up in the forums, is simple. It's not going to get any progress. It's going to be a tug-of-war, over why my paperwork ideals is better than your paperwork ideals. To some people, writing and signing paperwork, can be fun. To others, it's not. Neither side can seemingly see the other's for it's entirety, and because of that, no change will occur.

This is an RP server. Part of that is realizing people will RP things differently. You're not going to always have a round where everything is to your liking. Do you wallow on the ground and say 'woe is me, it's so unfair'? No, you don't. You adapt. Respond accordingly ICly.

As a final remark, paperwork does not effect you too much at all, gameplay-wise. If it was gone, nobody would notice. Paperwork forms are boring, I understand that. They don't let you RP, I understand that. That said, this is not taking the same amount of time as if you were filling out actual paperwork. At the very most, you might be out for three to five minutes. At the very most.

Remember, the server should not be tailored to one person, or even a group of people. Who are you to say that paperwork for (x) is bad, but paperwork for (x) is good? Maybe somebody else thinks differently. Should it be changed because they believe differently than you? No, because we would get nowhere doing that.

TL;DR: I believe that paperwork is would be better handled ICly, than OOCly.

[Erik Tiber]

Personally I'm with Ffrances and Cassie. I'm rather troubled by the hostile reaction this got from the playerbase, too.

I'm rather amused that so many people are getting worked up over something as minor and unimportant as literally the most tedious and useless bit of paperwork on the station when adding something like, say, adding details about languages was considered to be just too anal retentive for the server.

This is really just bizarre. We have a futuristic high-tech world here. Why should we reduce this whole setting to a 2015 modern office? Why is it "too realistic" to make a setting more intellectually stimulating than star wars, but not filling out your 501© form is completely immersion-shattering?

I'd take more nanobots and genetic engineering over more paperwork any day.

[Gollee]

For Clarification, I do NOT want a checkpoint every round, it would be annoying; but I also want it to be an option that command staff and security have.

 

Arresting someone who is too unstable to even sign a register is a good thing; new players will either go along with it, as they will listen to what information they recieve, or they will be confused, Ahelp, and it will be sorted; it is only when someone repeatedly insults the officer, and shows less restraint than a five year old that they would be brigged.

 

So, a new player will be forced to be nice to your character one minute after joining the server for the first time, or be shoved in the brig and possibly demoted?

No, a new player won't be forced to be nice; and they would only be arrested, as Fowl said, when they try and force their way through, or try and burn through walls.

 

So, some context: There was a suspected virus on board. We were instructed to warn new arrivals of it as they entered. Hence, yes, the checkpoint actually served a purpose, to my knowledge.

 

Partial reasoning for the checkpoint in the round that sparked this; and a very good reason for them to appear infrequently.

 

In comparison to OOC dickishness that I'm often subjected to as well as the fact that security/heads is flooded with IC dicks with power - that's the deal that makes everything different.

 

That is what Player complaints are for, if you do NOT use them, then nothing can be done, that is literally the entire point of the section, we cannot force you to use it; but if you refuse to, then nothing will occur as NO ONE will be aware.

 

If this does become a common thing I'll simply set all my characters spawn points to cryogenic revival, then we all win.

 

Then do this, rather than hurling insults; all your insults are doing is sparking aggression and antagonising people, generally people react better to not being called Anally retentive when you are trying to persuade them; no one has insulted you, pay them the same courtesy.

 

So, what exactly was this paperwork that you had to do? What did you have to fill in at the checkpoint?

The process at the checkpoint (from my experience) was literally, walk up to the window, put your ID on the counter, the officer filled in your information on a form (which took about five seconds), and then all you had to do was sign and then you were buzzed in.

EDIT: I'd also like to point out that it wasn't just IC disgruntlement that Cassie displayed, but in OOC as well.

Yes, but that's missing the point of this topic. I'm tired of the bureaucracy "gameplay" in general, and if I can't avoid any form of unnecessary paperwork I'd rather not play. Even if it's the simplest paperwork ever I just refuse. It's repetitive, annoying and stupid and should only be left to the players who like it.

 

This is a Heavy Roleplay Server of a secure facility; no matter what you do, there will be at least a small amount of paperwork; I can only think of a few jobs that can escape paperwork entirely, those being bartender, librarian and chaplain.

I would also like to note, before it gets thrown at me; I do not like paperwork, I detest it; but I know it is an essential part of the game for some people, so I cede ground and let them have their enjoyment; I can get back to having fun very shortly afterwards.

 

Hold on, so you're complaining, and getting irritated at everything that is paperwork because of the fact that all you had to was type in [/sign]?

Yes, I don't want any part of it. I dislike paperwork so much that I'd actually dread arriving on the station if this sort of thing was actually a common theme. There's no point of it IC'ly and I've explained why I don't like it so I don't like repeating myself.

It's not like I actually walked up to something IC'ly and chose to partake in something that needed paperwork. Paperwork at this point was essentially required to partake in the server if you think about it, and through that I would call it roleplay grief for people who really, really dislike paperwork. Paperwork was always the marmite of HRP servers. I dislike paperwork, what's wrong with that?

Refer to previous point about jobs and paperwork.

 

People need to satisfy their sexual fetish for paperwork in the HOP office where it belongs. It's a slippery slope from here, that's why I voiced my opinion here.

 

Again, cut the insults, all you are going to do is get people angry with you, and that will not progress this situation at all.

 

I dislike paperwork, what's wrong with that?

 

Absolutely nothing... Up until the point where you demand people change their reasonable, IC actions for your satisfaction.

 

See my point about my own stance on this.

 

Yes, I don't want any part of it. I dislike paperwork so much that I'd actually dread arriving on the station if this sort of thing was actually a common theme.

 

I'm not one to judge, but this just sounds like you being picky and unreasonable. You're fine with typing out huge, detailed paragraphs for the sake of RP, but when someone wants to ensure IDs are valid, you refuse to type six digits?

 

Your enjoyment doesn't override that of other people, what is a minor inconvenience to you could be quite fun for them, consider other people's enjoyment in events.

 

There's no point of it IC'ly

 

You've recently arrived on a High-Tech research station, one owned by probably the most hated corporation in all of Human existence. An extremely quick security check, to verify your Identity and ensure you're who you say you are makes perfect sense to me, and just about everyone else I've talked to about this...

 

What Dea said here.

 

You've recently arrived on a High-Tech research station, one owned by probably the most hated corporation in all of Human existence. An extremely quick security check, to verify your Identity and ensure you're who you say you are makes perfect sense to me, and just about everyone else I've talked to about this...

Name one establishment that has ID cards on employees that enforces this ridiculous procedure every shift. Because I guarantee you won't find a single one.

 

The military base I live on has this procedure.

 

Absolutely nothing... Up until the point where you demand people change their reasonable, IC actions for your satisfaction.

It's the other way around, isn't it?

No, it isn't, currently, the status quo is that the Checkpoint can be justified, through antag actions or random events. It isn't unreasonable to check that IDs are correct on arrival anywhere.

 

Yep. What about it?

 

It's unreasonable. All I really see is "I DON'T LIKE WHAT PEOPLE ARE DOING. CHANGE!" Which just comes off as downright childish.

Civility on both sides is going to help resolve this.

 

It's the other way around, isn't it?

 

No, No it's not.

They are NOT forcing you to abandon anything that makes sense ICly (Apologies if your character is based around refusing to sign paperwork). They're not throwing you in a backroom, strip searching you without a warrant and imprisoning you. They're politely, and considerately telling you to show your ID to them, and write your name down.

 

This.

 

Would you like to be that one guy who gets 30 minute brigged by security for making Durands or Gygaxes without filing out paperwork and getting a head's express permission?

Can you read the original post again because that's not what I am talking about. I don't care about that kind of paperwork. I'm talking about unavoidable arrivals paperwork. I don't like paperwork in general but I don't really care if the HOP or the roboticist or wherever has paperwork.

 

Cassie is correct here, this is just related to arrivals paperwork.

 

It's unreasonable. All I really see is "I DON'T LIKE WHAT PEOPLE ARE DOING. CHANGE!" Which just comes off as downright childish.

That's what you're trying to reduce it to, but quite frankly; I already explained that I don't have a problem with paperwork if other people are doing it. I have a problem with obligatory paperwork I cannot avoid. That is a very tiny thing to ask for a useless game mechanic which doesn't really have much benefit or change to the server gameplay other than wasting a minute or two in a pointless queue at game start.

 

It is wasting a minute or two for someone else's enjoyment, which I, personally do not begrudge them; that is how they are amusing themselves; it isn't breaking the game.

 

And software can be manipulated. This allows Sec to just send a Fax to Centcom to verify the members of the crew and pick-out anyone who wasn't legitimately assigned.

Wow this pointless IC mechanic really makes me feel excited! Especially when it's not here every shift. Especially when the AI and/or security members could be fucking off and/or absent just like the HOP! This is so exciting tell me more! Tell how to roleplay the cognitive dissonance of the inconsistency! Whenever I type [sign] into the message box my heart skips a beat! I run down the hallways with the many anticipated wonders of standing in my department doing my exciting repetitive IC job!

This is just such a great idea I can't wait for everyone to start roleplaying this mechanic despite the mismatch of the errors it has as stated in the previous paragraphs!

Horrible sarcasm aside, the whole paperwork thing is an example of many things wrong with the disturbed game mechanics of this server, so don't think I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. The straw broke the camel's back, to say.

Cut the rudeness, doesn't help.

I believe that the checkpoint should be inactive, up to the point where something happens ICly, that can activate it, such as a captain's decree, a random event, or antag action.

If you think the captain shouldn't make one on a whim, complain, ICly, OOCly, use the incident reports, file it under harassment or waste of resources, Duty Officers will take care of the rest, as it could easily be deemed unnecessary.

 

No, No it's not. And I'm growing tired of this stubbornness. You're not going to find many people here who agree with your point, because you don't have one. Your personal feelings aside, this isn't an issue.

They are NOT forcing you to abandon anything that makes sense ICly (Apologies if your character is based around refusing to sign paperwork). They're not throwing you in a backroom, strip searching you without a warrant and imprisoning you. They're politely, and considerately telling you to show your ID to them, and write your name down.

 

Well, I'm growing tired of this issue, imagine that? I have a point, I'm not the only person who feels the same way as I do - I'm simply the only person who is willing to be made into curried lamb if I can get my point across. If you don't agree with me, fine. But my topic is here, what I said is said, and my feelings are reasoned, valid and justified.

 

You would have a point if the checkpoint was every round, I would find that intensely irritating, but it isn't; so the situation is more murky.

 

Anyway, since we're going that route, just a few more unavoidable paperwork suggestions that I consider to be excellent additions to the spirit of the server:

Computer Use Form (to make sure that misuse of the computers are prevented, we have this kind of thing in my local library):

Name:
Department:
Reason:

Stamp from head:

Signature:

 

Appearance Change Form (To keep records on character identity safe before using mirrors and lipsticks so sec knows what everyone looks like):

Name:
Former Appearance (hair, makeup, clothes):
Current Appearance (hair, makeup, clothes):
What is the reason for this change?:
Do you intend to intiate coitus on station?: (y/n)
Stamp from head:

Signature:

 

Breathing Form (to regulate the air of the server):

Name:
Why did you take this breath?:
How long did this breath last?:
Do you have any diseases that you need to inform us about?:
What gas(es) did you inhale (state exact proportions):
Stamp from head:

Signature:

 

Again, rudeness does not help make your point, all it does is antagonize people like me who then get angry when we post in retaliation.

 

I can 100% get behind Cassie, btw.

If a HoP(HOS?) started forcing his or her officers to write detailed arrest reports for every little thing that happened during a round, security would spend more time writing forms in the brig than patrolling. Point is, they'd get chewed out by a large part of the community right away.

What happened here is simply a minor form of this. We don't force people to register through the checkpoint because

 

• 1. It's sort of tedious (if only slightly)
  
  2. It's not something we can enforce regularly (need somebody assigned to do it)
  
  3. It's terribly boring for the person in charge of it
  
  4. As a final nail in the coffin, it brings little to nothing interesting to the round

 

Whenever an activity encompasses any of these first three characteristics, as well as characteristic #4, it is safe to say it's not an activity which players should be subjected to. In addition, one final weirdness is that due to the impossibility of securing a checkpoint volunteer every round, you shouldn't really make something a rule without good reason. So you have a situation where people expect to come in to work every morning without having to check in, and suddenly get in trouble for not doing so because we found somebody willing to do it for once. It just... seems weird. If you actually want to change a rule for a round, you're usually expected to have an in-round reason, say that you've been getting non-registered intruders coming through arrivals or whatnot.

Arrest records are a thing, but they do not need to be overly complex, as you have said, agreeing there; but they do need to be a thing.

The checkpoint should not be every round, and should be set up due to player initiative in reaction to IC events, as stated previous.

On another note, this isn't a round by round issue, so I'd say get over it. It is up to the Captain on a round-by-round basis if they wish to institute this process, if they wanted, they could make you fill out paperwork for ordering drinks, using the holodeck, or even taking a break from work.

Requesting staff demand verbal (radio) permission is okay. Having people fill paperwork for any of these things is ridiculous.

 

Agreed.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Wow this took a turn since I originally posted. Let me reaffirm, as someone who has tossed around quite a bit of paperwork, my stance.

1) Pretty much all the command forms are important if the round is not heavy-action. ID replacement, reassignment, promotions - I don't tend to do demotions unless the cap is a hard-ass because having 'terminated' on your ID is pretty self explanatory but if I have free time I fill one out - and they are necessary imo because they let heads have a record of wtf they've done, and wtf other Heads are doing. I've had several ass-savings for both myself and other people because I had the right filed form in my filing cabinet or folder.

2) Forcing you to sign in at the front desk is dumb. Who did that? That's just unnecessary. "Show me your ID" let them show their ID, and let them pass. Sheesh I've personally bitched at the front desk if someone asks me to sign in. Stop that, unless we're having an event or it's unknowns or whatever.

3) Complaining about paperwork IC could unleash pandora's box, because there's a cathartic enjoyment in the subtextual "DENIED" when they lay their ID on the table and I in turn lay down a form they have to file. If Houssam likes you, he'll make it as easy as he can. If you irritate him, he'll give you an entire stack of papers you have to fill out. I also OOC giggle everytime someone walks up, asks for an unreasonable job change, (like from assistant to chemist with no history), then when I set the reassignment form on the desk they look at it then just walk away. It tickles my inner Stalin.

4) The only ones that should worry about paperwork in sec are the warden, CSI, and detective, and to a lesser degree the HoS. And in all three cases, it's to make the job of the officers and HoS easier. Case reports with corresponding labeled evidence makes the evidence storage the most beautiful place in the station, and the case report itself keeps all the evidence easy to parse for the HoS to make his decisions. I've busted major antag rings with organized evidence when they were spoopy stealthy.

5) I forgot what my 5th point was because I went to get lemonade.

6) In 80% of cases, paperwork is a butt-coverer or an aide. Either to command or the department, the important stuff is what I stick to. Forcing everyone to sign before they can get in the station, or hurling paperwork at someone until they die from a thousand papercuts is just... Powergaming? Can you powergame with bureaucracy? Bureaucracy gank? In any case paperwork spamming someone is butts. You should be bending the IC rules to help people get out of it or get less of it, and save the "EVERYTHING MUST BE OFFICIAL AND SIGNED ON THE DOTTED LINE" for people that IC'ly piss you off, or your character just doesn't like, because harmless nepotism like this is fun.

[Skull132]

My head hurts. Holy shit, does it hurt.

Point one, majority of my viewpoints are quite effectively covered by Voltage here: http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1556&start=30#p14157

And Jackboot, here: http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1556&start=30#p14168

So I'll simply touch on a few lines, and then proceed onto something which has not been mentioned by those two.

Below is me echoing the lines I agree with most, that are brought out. Feel free to skip this, as you feel like. It's what comes after that I'm more urging to press.

First, paperwork does purely exist as an aid, a method to cover your arse, and to make sure that the one issuing the order is held accountable, as opposed to the individual actually executing the order. An example is quite simple: an RD wants a DURAND for scientific testing. Okay, RD gets a form, signs it, which shows that he issued the order and he is to be held accountable for that order. Security notices the Roboticist building it, and they knock on his door. Obviously. It's a mil-grade mech, after all. Without that paper to affirm that it was, in fact, the RD who issued the order, Security could very easily arrest the Roboticist, and the RD swindle his way out of it. That paper let's them avoid lifting a finger against the Roboticist, and focus solely on the man accountable: the RD. That is why paperwork exists, and it show prove how it actually exists to protect the small guy, instead of being there to amuse the heads of staff.

Second, the arrivals checkpoint should not be used for a gimmicky, "Sign form here to gain cookies," type deal. If you pitch it to me as something more, such as, "The checkpoint is set up to give everyone a nice, non-intrusive welcome, and to provide information for those necessary, to minimize the amount of unassigned personnel walking about," then I'll give that my full backing. Go nuts! That is constructive!

Claiming it to serve some altruistic purpose of "Weeding out those unable to adjust themselves to this setting," is also a bad excuse to run something like this. Running it with that mentality, and that viewpoint is a method that will breed failure. And is rather awful. And should probably be stopped, it is not a valid point to stand on, and is actually idiotic. As I argued to Gollee last night.

 

Now, with that aside. What really gets under my skin. As a Head Developer, member, observer, player, as a human. Is the all-around attitude demonstrated by both sides.

Instead of posting a simplistic discussion, I am daunted by a tangent and a half. The replies to which demonstrate an "us v them" mentality all around. Not just those arguing for this checkpoint, but those trying to argue that all Security does is validhunt for arrests. It's... What the absoloute fuck?

Everyone should take a moment to rest, relax, and figure out that we are a community. If something poses an issue, the approach should not be, "It's purely because one side wants to screw the other side." Lord Fowl, from what I understand, the Security Officer tending the checkpoint, posted a very well thought out and reasoned reply. I suggest you read it, bottom of page one.

In fact, his was the first one to be constructive about the issue. Instead of blaming anyone, he pointed out facts, pointed out his own shortcomings in this matter, and potential solutions. If tailored properly, perhaps an officer serving as a greeter is not that bad of an idea? It'd give new faces a point of contact, and when efficiently run, wouldn't obstruct those who don't wish to bother.

But that all hinges on everyone being constructive about the issue. Instead of going on about tangents, assumptions, pointing fingers and whatever the fuck else. So, think about that.

[Baka]

As a chemist player, I have to do prescription paper work and chemical request paper work.

Yes, some roboticists and scientist, maybe the occasional botanist will stomp their feet and go "this is for a simple fucking beaker of sulphuric acid/unstable mutagen!" Welcome to the chemistry sector of the work force, where paperwork in real life is not only required, but enforced by the law. Of course, if you're gonna make it easy on me I'll fill out the paperwork for you and ask for your signature, but to stomp around and wince because I just want your signature is not gonna waste the three seconds you're gonna wait for anyhow.

I make people sign for H₂SO₄. Wouldn't you for big beakers of acid?

[Cassie]

As a chemist player, I have to do prescription paper work and chemical request paper work.

Yes, some roboticists and scientist, maybe the occasional botanist will stomp their feet and go "this is for a simple fucking beaker of sulphuric acid/unstable mutagen!" Welcome to the chemistry sector of the work force, where paperwork in real life is not only required, but enforced by the law. Of course, if you're gonna make it easy on me I'll fill out the paperwork for you and ask for your signature, but to stomp around and wince because I just want your signature is not gonna waste the three seconds you're gonna wait for anyhow.

I make people sign for H₂SO₄. Wouldn't you for big beakers of acid?

 

Congratulations. Look...

We're all here talking about civility and mature discussion when we've got people who don't even read what I have to say in the first place. Can you please, please, please read the first post. It would really make sense what the issue here is if you did.

[Guest Menown]

We're all here talking about civility and mature discussion

 

Now, I'm aware that paperwork is enjoyable to a lot of people, especially to type A anal retentive personalities

[Skull132]

Please don't start getting petty. It'll either end in forum warnings, or the thread being closed off, because it'll become nothing more than people just being dumb. You're all better than that.

[Jamini]

Lots of hostility over paperwork here. Geez.

My 2C

Paperwork, if done right, can enhance a round. Assuming it isn't overly difficult or lengthy to fill out, and can act as much-needed proof of authorization and give people pause on weather or not a questionable course of action is really wise. If you aren't willing to fill out paperwork over brigging/arresting someone, for example, the regulation violation is likely NOT bad enough to warrant brigging/arrest. If you aren't willing to type out your name, the date, and a brief description of the secret ERP club you are building in arrivals, then you clearly aren't invested in the work. If you aren't willing to justify why you want access, you probably shouldn't be asking for it. Throwing a fit over paperwork is stupid, most times.

That said, when paperwork goes overboard it can be a significant detriment to the round. Having to fill out a twenty-page form in triplicate is not enjoyable, and it rather defeats the purpose of playing this game if you are forced to do things that are not enjoyable to simply participate. I've always personally been against forcing paperwork for truly minor things: such as remodeling the bar, or doing a bit of optimization in atmospherics, and I always advocate keeping paperwork in a game simple and quick so people do not need to invest an excessive amount of time in it. That is, in part, why I'm a huge fan of your form database here. The forms are simple, well-formatted, and get to the point with little beating about the bush.

From the sound of the round in question, I would say that forcing people to fill out a form to simply enter the station was not a good way to go about doing it. If anything, I would suggest that people wanting to do an arrivals check-in have the officer responsible for filling out the sign-in, sign-out book. Simply identifying oneself and showing a badge really should have sufficed for the situation. That said, the reaction of some of the crew was over-the-top and very much deserved a brigging.

[VoltageHero]

Having to fill out a twenty-page form in triplicate is not enjoyable

 

As a clarification, there aren't any paperwork that are 'twenty-pages'. I'm sure you were purposefully exaggerating it, but still.

[Guest]

Right, let's dissect this a bit, since I'm tired of seeing people fight over such a little thing that hardly even occurs.

Has the OP presented something that they see as a problem? Yes.

Has the OP presented their reasoning and opinion as to why they see it as a problem? Yes.

Has everyone that has posted in this thread given at least some viable feedback either supporting for, withholding support for, or shown opposition for potential change? In some aspects, yes, until it deescalated at some points.

Is there a way to resolve this 'issue' and focus on COMPROMISING before the flame war is stoked even further? This is a question that is up to the lot of you to answer.

[Jamini]

I'm sure you were purposefully exaggerating it, but still.

 

Of course I was. Still, my point is that paperwork should be short and to the point. It shouldn't be a major hassle for the people that need to fill it out, unless they are themselves causing a ruckus/hassle.

[Guest]

Alright, re-reading this thread again. For the third, maybe fourth time.

First I see people say this is an IC issue and should be dealt with ICly.

Then I see others say it's a gameplay/OOC issue and should be dealt with OOCly.

Both bring up good points, yet both of the sides of the coin are complaining about how their side is shinier than the other.

What the fuck am I supposed to support here?

[Valkrae]

You know, I complained about it too, as I was around when Cassie's character was complaining. I complained a bit, and ended up just signing the paperwork and going on about my business.

I think it's interesting to see player reactions to this sort of thing.

[LordFowl]

For reference's sake, here's the initial form:

 

[small]
[center][b]NanoTrasen Inc.
Civilian Branch of Operation[/b]

Form 0213
Admission Form[/center]
[hr]Facility: NSS Aurora
Date: [field]
Index: [field]

This form permits the admission of the denoted NanoTrasen employee or guest by the denoted employee of the NanoTrasen Civilian Branch of Operation’s Security Department to the denoted NanoTrasen facility and validates their tardiness

Employee/Guest Concerned: [field]

Security Officer’s Signature: [field]
Time of Admission: [field]

ID Number: [field]
ID Name: [field]
ID Assignment: [field]
ID Blood Type: [field]
ID DNA Hash: [field]
ID Fingerprint Hash: [field]
Employee/Guest’s Signature: [field][/small]

 

I filled out the entire form except for the "Employee/Guest's Signature" bit, which the person involved did a '[sign]' for.

This version of the form was mainly to satisfy the IC idea that a late arrival should have their ID matched with computer information on them. I was considering also having them fill out a short reason explaining their lateness. I still might do that, because it kind of grounds the world, doesn't it? Making up a reason for why your character could be late.

However, I've very much become attracted to the idea of "The checkpoint is set up to give everyone a nice, non-intrusive welcome, and to provide information for those necessary, to minimize the amount of unassigned personnel walking about," and I'm thinking of ways to achieve that. Thanks for the feedback.

[Skull132]

However, I've very much become attracted to the idea of "The checkpoint is set up to give everyone a nice, non-intrusive welcome, and to provide information for those necessary, to minimize the amount of unassigned personnel walking about," and I'm thinking of ways to achieve that. Thanks for the feedback.

 

I want to say, minimal (visible) security gear and wear the white blouse and red pants, effectively what the cadets wear. Also, see if you can get something from the chef. Like a small treat or something, per person. Simple thing, but hey, might win a heart or two.

And keep in mind, you've got to play this quite responsive. Be fast and have quick wit. If a person is curious, you should have the ability to answer all of their questions, or get someone/direct them to someone. If they are ticked off, try and not to project, simply make sure they know you're there for them, if they don't want you, let them along their way.

You may also want a wingman. As this case demonstrated, running it solo can end with you, and thus the entire flow, bogged down. So grab a buddy.

Those are my immediate thoughts.

[Jamini]

Urgh, Fowl, that form is drifting well into the annoying to fill out category. I can see why people disliked it. You want too much detail. Especially since most of that information is already in your readily available character records. Not to mention that some people will fluff that they arrived at their assigned time or early for their next shift if it's late enough (Past 1-2 hours into) in the round.

Personally, I feel arrivals is not a good place for mandatory paperwork. People have a legitimate reason to gnash their teeth and complain about security stopping them there. If you really want to try it, at least make the form exceedingly easy to fill out. Such as follows:

 

[small]
[center][b]NanoTrasen Inc.
Civilian Branch of Operation[/b]

Form 0213
Admission Form[/center]
[hr]Facility: NSS Aurora
Date: [field]
Index: [field]

This form permits the admission of the denoted NanoTrasen employee or guest by the denoted employee of the NanoTrasen Civilian Branch of Operation’s Security Department to the denoted NanoTrasen facility.

ID Name: [field]
ID Assignment: [field]

Security Officer’s Signature: [field]
Employee/Guest’s Signature: [field]
Time of Admission: [field][/small]

 

You don't need their blood and fingerprint hash, you don't need their blood type. That stuff is in the computer already. Frankly, the entire idea is in poor taste to me and simply screams "Security waving their dicks about because they can." If you feel you must do something like this, then at least make the form quick to fill out.

[Guest]

I filled out the entire form except for the "Employee/Guest's Signature" bit, which the person involved did a '[sign]' for.

He didn't make people fill out the form, he did it and asked them to sign.

Personally I see this blown way out of size. You had to sign a bit of paper, for one round to my knowledge. I don't see this worthy of complaining about to this degree or tell people they can't do paperwork anymore.

[Cassie]

Personally I see this blown way out of size. You had to sign a bit of paper, for one round to my knowledge. I don't see this worthy of complaining about to this degree or tell people they can't do paperwork anymore.

Need to re clarify this for the third or fourth time.

1. I don't have a problem with paperwork in essential areas that can also be avoided IC'ly like the HOP office, robotics, cargo, etc.

2. If people want to do paperwork, they should feel free.

3. I don't think it's good to have obligatory paperwork in arrivals.

4. The complexity of the paperwork isn't the deal, it's the fact it's there, unavoidable and not enjoyable for me - which is grinding my gears. Do we really need it? Is it worth it?

Going over some stuff I missed previously...

 

Again, rudeness does not help make your point, all it does is antagonize people like me who then get angry when we post in retaliation.

Cut the rudeness, doesn't help.

Civility on both sides is going to help resolve this.

Gollee, I don't know if you've noticed this but the very questioning of the status quo of this server is enough to warrant a hostile and dismissive reaction. My impression of this server is that there's a portion of people who are nice, friendly and learning RP'ers who help each other out, and there's another portion of people who are uptight, judgement and prejudiced people who couldn't actually give about other people's feelings or gameplay - these tend to be mostly veteran players who don't like the "new blood" and don't want change and have the highest experience of RP'ing on this server. Understandably the staff don't want to lose either, but the situation is ridiculous.

When I first came here I was nicer, willing to accept a few flaws here and there and I actually wanted to help out on the server because there's not enough HRP servers that have a high percentage of roleplayers. I was subjected to OOC and IC nonsense over again and did the mistake of trying to rationally discuss it with the players before making a complaint of any kind. It just went downhill when you realize a lot of these players are dev/staff or friends with them and the position that puts me in is that this kind of thing is unavoidable even if I do it came to point that I do bring it to the forums and I don't bite my tongue anymore like I used to. I have to admit I do feel a bit sorry for the staff here but I don't really feel many really genuinely care.

My original comments about the civility was tongue in cheek because if you wonder about "civility" try being treated like a baldly player in OOC or LOOC for saying "Hey, I didn't like that." or "Why did you do that? That was a bit extreme?". Civil or non-civil you will be treated the same by prejudice, it becomes a "Why bother?"

Talking in a formal tone does not necessarily mean "not rude" because implications in the speech as well as actions are things that can show rudeness as well as swift dismissal.

 

Your enjoyment doesn't override that of other people, what is a minor inconvenience to you could be quite fun for them, consider other people's enjoyment in events.

Okaaaay. Sadist station 13.

So anyway, that's what I have been precisely doing. I don't bother the HOP and force them to give me an ID change without paperwork or demand the server stop having paperwork altogether. I simply, simply said "Fine, have your paperwork, but we can make it an optional part of gameplay so it's not forced on anyone who doesn't want it?" and everyone loses their damn minds.

It's like the enjoyment of people who don't like paperwork don't matter, and the enjoyment of those who do like paperwork is prioritized over everyone elses'.

Then do this, rather than hurling insults; all your insults are doing is sparking aggression and antagonising people, generally people react better to not being called Anally retentive when you are trying to persuade them; no one has insulted you, pay them the same courtesy.

Same courtesy? I don't think so. If I was treated with courtesy with anger would not exist.

I assume you weren't there to witness the OOC argument post-round that happened before this. I stated my issue within OOC saying something along the lines of "Well, I have to say I didn't really enjoy x, I don't think it should have happened really" as a simple note of round feedback (not an actual complaint) rather calmly, and then I was pretty much hushed up in a very swift and cold way. Told by someone that "I'm playing on the wrong server" in a condescending tone as if I were some dumbass LRP'er who stumbled onto the wrong server was complaining about something as bonded to HRP like emoting or something and my opinion did not matter.

After the rudeness of the OOC channel I was rightly so pissed I couldn't even roleplay for the rest of the day, and as I made this topic I began to calm down and collect my thoughts more. I'm a human being, after all.

And the anal retentiveness isn't even an insult, it's criticism and a fact at this stage. Maybe these people put themselves into the shoes of someone who isn't them, they'd see where that comment comes from.