Nerf the Revolver

[Susan]

 

This.

This is unacceptable. 5 dead people (1 unknown is the shooter) out of 12 rounds, and since it takes two shots to decapitate you could basically kill all of security with two clips of ammo.

The 60 damage on the revolver is utterly ridiculous. It is so powerful and can murder any target on station that isn't a cyborg because there exists pretty much nothing except the vests in the armory with substantial bullet resistance. This isn't the only instance of a revolver shooting spree (circumstances are irrelevant here, not attacking the antag, only the weapon) where dudes stroll around two shot insta-killing any hostile they come across, and it is ridiculous. No other fairly common ranged weapon in this game can instantly kill you in two shots short of the shotgun. Not even the Lawgiver, or the LWAP, or the Nuke Op SMG, or the regular SMG can instakill you in two shots.

Nerf the damage down to 30 or 40. I'd like to reiterate that the revolver is .357 magnum, yet the Nuke Op SMG is .50 caliber and does about 1/3 the damage. It makes no sense. It is the gankiest weapon that can instantly destroy you because the damage is so high. It needs to be brought in line with other weapons that partake in a normal round. Not even the /Vox/ weapons can two-shot kill you.

[Jamini]

Nuke op SMG fires three rounds at the same time on burstfire, dealing comparable damage with a bigger mag.

Were any of them wearing helmets? Basic sec helmets have 15 bullet resistance, dropping that 60 to 45. SWAT helmets have a whopping 60 bullet resistance, and tactical helmets have 50 bullet resistance.

I also highly doubt the nukeop SMG is .50 cal, as that's a fucking sniper/LMG round. If it is, it's probably mislabeled.

[Skull132]

For the sake of clarity, the 12.7x99mm NATO round made famous within ze movies and stuff isn't the only .50 caliber round in existence. A pistol round of the same caliber exists (12.7x33mm), most notably used in the Desert Eagle. Considering advances in material research and tech, it isn't all that impossible to imagine a round of similar caliber used as a general purpose cartridge (exact measurements may differ).

On target. It is kind of ridic seeing Doomberg walk around with a revolver, shooting everyone in the face and decaping them in one shot. Even if you have items that offer protection, the damage is obscenely high, in context with the other weapons in the game. Ergo, there isn't much consistency to explain the comparably high numbers.

[Blue]

The purpose of the handgun is for self defense. For your noir-crime fighter to be able to continue his chain smoking addiction.

Haven't played detective since the forensics redux. Is it still the 1911? If so, it doesn't need to be so strong. If there's a threat that *needs* to be killed, 2-3 shots should really incapacitate them, not decapitate them. Maybe make it 5-6 shots to the head to kill?

[Skull132]

The purpose of the handgun is for self defense. For your noir-crime fighter to be able to continue his chain smoking addiction.

Haven't played detective since the forensics redux. Is it still the 1911? If so, it doesn't need to be so strong. If there's a threat that *needs* to be killed, 2-3 shots should really incapacitate them, not decapitate them. Maybe make it 5-6 shots to the head to kill?

 

Further clarification: we are not talking about the detective's revolver. The detective's revolver is fit for purpose, as it stands. We're talking about the antagonist revolver.

[Nik]

In game terms, this makes sense to be nerfed.

In reality, eating a .357 round in the face is game over for about 90% of the population. This is why I wasn't pushing for weapon nerf, but having a skill option related to weapons, and only having the ability to pick a set amount of 'perks', which would make weapons not shit.

So without said perks, you'd end up missing 80% of the time, not doing much damage when you do, and even harming yourself.

The perks would be things that would counteract that, give actual viable use to melee damage by giving some sort of boost to wrenches and crowbars, and obviously some sort of bare knuckled thing. Without these characters would hit less frequently and for less damage, and with them, do the damage we normally do.

While obviously you could be trained in multiple forms of combat, just having it so over other asshole can't be amazing with guns because the combat system is essentially a Adventure game, that'd be nice. Being given 3 points and ten abilities would at least minimize some of this bullshit.

[Blue]

The purpose of the handgun is for self defense. For your noir-crime fighter to be able to continue his chain smoking addiction.

Haven't played detective since the forensics redux. Is it still the 1911? If so, it doesn't need to be so strong. If there's a threat that *needs* to be killed, 2-3 shots should really incapacitate them, not decapitate them. Maybe make it 5-6 shots to the head to kill?

 

Further clarification: we are not talking about the detective's revolver. The detective's revolver is fit for purpose, as it stands. We're talking about the antagonist revolver.

 

Ah, my bad. Blue, learn to read you piece of shit

Then I guess maybe nerf it from 60 down to 50 or 40? I mean, it should still be a powerful weapon. Maybe reduce the size of it's clip, too?

[Susan]

Were any of them wearing helmets? Basic sec helmets have 15 bullet resistance, dropping that 60 to 45. SWAT helmets have a whopping 60 bullet resistance, and tactical helmets have 50 bullet resistance.

 

Assuming your armor eats the shot. If it doesn't, then you may as well not be wearing a helmet. Having armor on does not 100% guarantee the stopping of rounds or absorption of damage. It's a probability check. I've had an engineering suit eat a sniper round and leave me suffer no damage and get lit up in an ERT suit that got shot through like paper mache.

 

Then I guess maybe nerf it from 60 down to 50 or 40? I mean, it should still be a powerful weapon. Maybe reduce the size of it's clip, too?

 

The problem is that it's deadly enough to begin with. Bullet shrapnel, broken bones, internal bleeding - anything above 20 brute in one shot has a good chance to cause internal bleeding. Leaving it at around 30 or 35 would bring it in line with other weapons while still maintaining it's deadliness - just without bang bang decap ded.

[canon35]

Sec helmets can't stop 2 bullets point blank, I've been decapitated by one while wearing a helmet.

Also. I recommend moving it down to 40.

[Guest]

Wearing a helmet merely reduces the chance of you potentially getting one-shot-decapitated. That doesn't mean it won't happen.

I'd have to agree with going through with a nerf here. 60 damage for a .357 revolver that doesn't depend on who is using it is pretty ridiculous.

[TishinaStalker]

I would like to state that I was one of those victims. One shot (due to the antag misclicking because he wanted to set himself to aim instead), and my head got blown off my shoulders. That... That is pretty insane.

[Guest]

RIP revolverpirate ;_;

[EvilBrage]

From a look at the code, the only way to be decapitated from a single shot with the revolver is if you meet all of the conditions below:

 

2. They are targeting your head.
4. They are firing point blank and with the harm intent.
   
6. Your head already has damage that has not been healed.

Contrary to what seems to be the popular opinion in this thread, firing a revolver on your unharmed head, even while point blank, will not kill you. I'm inclined to suggest leaving the revolver how it is; after all, it's not the traitor weapon with the highest damage you can obtain (that being the energy sword, which deals 10 more damage.) The revolver can also be heard from several rooms away when fired, and once your ammo is gone, it's over. You could order a second clip, but you've just used 9 out of 10 telecrystals there; that's your entire antagonist loadout apart from a toolbox or some soap.

The weapon is only as good as its wielder, and like all antagonist objects, objectives, and roles, it's up to the individual who has it in his possession to make the round interesting. It's not "unacceptable" or "ganky" unless the player makes it that way.

 

Assuming your armor eats the shot. If it doesn't, then you may as well not be wearing a helmet. Having armor on does not 100% guarantee the stopping of rounds or absorption of damage. It's a probability check. I've had an engineering suit eat a sniper round and leave me suffer no damage and get lit up in an ERT suit that got shot through like paper mache.

Just quoting this because it's an important note: armor doesn't function as damage reduction, but rather a percent chance that the shot will do no damage. The armor values against ballistic weaponry are typically laughable unless you're actually wearing the ballistics vest. That said, Sue's acccount doesn't surprise me in the least; a sniper bullet, while powerful, is only one shot (and therefore, there's only one roll to make, albeit at a small chance you'll come out unharmed.) Luck was what saved her that day. On the other hand, you'd be surprised to know that even though it's an ERT hardsuit, it doesn't fare much better against bullets. I'm assuming she was shot with more than one, which would mean multiple percentile checks, which means an exponentially higher rate of failure despite the (slightly) higher armor value.

What this also means is that a traitor with an incredible run of bad luck can pump six revolver shots into your head at point blank range and it's possible for your helmet to block every single one. Sure, you only have a 0.001% chance of surviving that, but it's still possible. In a purely numerical sense, unless you're the one daft enough to let a known traitor waltz right up to you and give you two point-blank shots in the head, the ranged weaponry miss-chance coupled with an armor's defensive value gives a security officer a fair chance of surviving a gunshot or two (of which, need I remind you, the traitor typically only has six.) If we're so concerned about realism, we can rename the ammunition ".357 HP" and call it a night, because I wouldn't lower the revolver's damage below 50, if at all.

[Guest]

Funny, because I was able to decapitate Jade Rathel (Voltage) who was chasing after my nuke team with one revolver shot. She was not wearing a helmet, and she didn't take a single hit prior to the decapitation. She was also 3 tiles away.

[Susan]

Just quoting this because it's an important note: armor doesn't function as damage reduction, but rather a percent chance that the shot will do no damage.

 

Incorrect.

 

run_armor_check(a,b)
args
a:def_zone - What part is getting hit, if null will check entire body
b:attack_flag - What type of attack, bullet, laser, energy, melee
Returns
0 - no block
1 - halfblock
2 - fullblock



/mob/living/proc/run_armor_check(var/def_zone = null, var/attack_flag = "melee", var/absorb_text = null, var/soften_text = null)
var/armor = getarmor(def_zone, attack_flag)
var/absorb = 0
if(prob(armor))
	absorb += 1
if(prob(armor))
	absorb += 1
if(absorb >= 2)
	if(absorb_text)
		show_message("[absorb_text]")
	else
		show_message("\red Your armor absorbs the blow!")
	return 2
if(absorb == 1)
	if(absorb_text)
		show_message("[soften_text]",4)
	else
		show_message("\red Your armor softens the blow!")
	return 1
return 0



//Armor
var/absorb = run_armor_check(def_zone, P.flag)
var/proj_sharp = is_sharp(P)
var/proj_edge = has_edge(P)
if ((proj_sharp || proj_edge) && prob(getarmor(def_zone, P.flag)))
	proj_sharp = 0
	proj_edge = 0

if(!P.nodamage)
	apply_damage(P.damage, P.damage_type, def_zone, absorb, 0, P, sharp=proj_sharp, edge=proj_edge)
P.on_hit(src, absorb, def_zone)
return absorb

 

Snippets of code from living_defense.dm. The P is short for projectile - armor can either absorb shots entirely or only soften them, which still allows damage to get through. Whether or not people can hear it is irrelevant because you can just pop the heads off of anyone who comes for you. And sure, if you run out of ammo - the max you can get is 30 if you're on the command report, or 18 if you aren't - but all it takes is one or two shots to decapitate someone so effectively you can kill up to 15 or 9 people respectively, which is stupidly ridiculous. There is no skill required to be used in the revolver. Point and click twice. 90% chance target is instantly dead. Yeah, so skillful.

Comparing the revolver to the energy sword also isn't fair because you put yourself at risk in melee with the energy sword, justifyng it's high damage capabilities. With the revolver you don't have to risk shit. It's just a killing machine, one that is never used to make anything interesting and only as a self-defense weapon, which is why the absurd damage that has no counter (nice bulletproof vest, aiming for head) despite how much you try to insist the shitty, low percentage of resistance in security helmets actually does anything.

[mrimatool]

Just a note, the detectives revolver is pretty powerful too, and no one is claiming we should nerf that despite it being a self defence weapon instead of a murder weapon(See Antag Revolver). I think if we nerf one we should nerf the other.

[Guest]

Traitor revolver deals over 60 damage per shot on an unarmored target. Actually, if you hit an arm or a leg, there's little other way to prevent getting 60 damage on a limb besides wearing a full body suit. Meaning, you're going into crit by the time you get hit the second or third time.

Detective revolver deals 10 (er, was it 20?) damage per shot. This is extremely negligible, if anything.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Guest

[Skull132]

..Except. The detective's revolver is not powerful at all. It fires weakbullet type of projectile that does 20 damage. It's fine, as is.

[mrimatool]

Problem is Skull, you remember the time Sue killed Imraj and it sparked a massive argument on a staff complaint? That was the detective's revolver that beheaded him... So what the actual fuck is going on with it... Because that seems just as ridiculous as the thing we're debating.

I honestly think the revolver should be left how it is, but that's just me I think.

[Susan]

20 damage * 6 shots = 120, damage required to pop someone's head off.

2 clips + 1 in gun = 3 clips, maximum of 3 decaps barring anything else.

meanwhile

60 damage * 6 shots = 360, equivalent to 3 decapitations.

2 clips orderable + 1 in gun = 3 clips, minimum of nine decapitations, up to 18 if lucky with one shot decaps.

or

4 clips orderable + 1 in gun = 5 clips, minimum of 15 decapitations, up to 30 if lucky with one shot decaps.

What are you trying to say again.

[Guest]

^ Let's focus on traitor revolvers please.

Oh-fucking-kay. Here's the facts. The traitor revolver is overpowered. It has the capacity to murder and instantly kill nine-to-eighteen people without any possible counterplay to it besides never encountering that one asshole with the revolver. unfortunately, security cannot react like that. They HAVE to stop the murderboning antagonist. It's their OOC job.

It also doesn't make sense how a relatively concealable weapon like that can cause so much death and grief in the hands of a lucky son of a bitch.

QED. Traitor revolver needs a nerf. It can still keep its identity as a lethal weapon, but not one that clearly outclasses even the best ballistic weapons in the game.

[mrimatool]

Sue you shot a guy once with the detectives revolver and his head blew off...

[mrimatool]

And just a note, I don't think the Antag revolver needs a nerf, but I do agree compared to the Nuke SMG, it's shit and that makes no sense. If it were really like that then nuke ops should get them xD

[EvilBrage]

Skull - I thought it was switched over to weakbullet2 a while back? It pumps out 25 without any weaken/stun attributes.

 

[...]And sure, if you run out of ammo - the max you can get is 30 if you're on the command report, or 18 if you aren't - but all it takes is one or two shots to decapitate someone so effectively you can kill up to 15 or 9 people respectively, which is stupidly ridiculous. There is no skill required to be used in the revolver. Point and click twice. 90% chance target is instantly dead. Yeah, so skillful.

Comparing the revolver to the energy sword also isn't fair because you put yourself at risk in melee with the energy sword, justifyng it's high damage capabilities. With the revolver you don't have to risk shit. It's just a killing machine, one that is never used to make anything interesting and only as a self-defense weapon, which is why the absurd damage that has no counter (nice bulletproof vest, aiming for head) despite how much you try to insist the shitty, low percentage of resistance in security helmets actually does anything.

 

Have you ever gone through and read combat logs generated while firing weapons at someone that's not right next to you? Despite what you aim for, you can hit other parts of the body anyways, typically the chest.

I'm detecting an attitude that corporate security should have superior firepower to a specially-placed agent of opposing corporate interests, or a terrorist, or whatever your traitor happens to be - and I wholeheartedly disagree. The revolver, like any good weapon, is only a win button if you don't know how to combat it effectively. And just to nip this in the bud, security is not the OOC police of the server; that's an administrator's job, and if someone is "murderboning" then you just toss in an ahelp or save some logs for later.

Comparing the traitor revolver to the detective's is also a very poor comparison; the detective spends nothing to acquire his weapon and two clips, and can obtain a potentially infinite number by doing something as simple as visiting an autolathe. If a traitor wishes to acquire more ammunition for his, he has to catch a moment with the autolathe, alone, and hope the enormous amount of materials he has to use to create new bullets isn't missed - a measured risk/reward to consider. Just like selecting the traitor's revolver to begin with as opposed to, say, the energy sword, crossbow, emag, or any object the traitor has access to.

No amount of nerfing will cure the fact that when faced with a dangerous situation, people will occasionally do very stupid things. If you're minding your own business on the station and you charge towards the sound of gunshots when they're going off, you deserve to die by virtue of the sheer stupidity, I don't care what your department is.

You encountered an individual with a revolver. You died.

 

/client/proc/man_up(mob/T as mob in mob_list)
set category = "Fun"
set name = "Man Up"
set desc = "Tells mob to man up and deal with it."
if(!check_rights(R_ADMIN))
return
T << "<span class='notice'><b><font size=3>Man up and deal with it.</font></b></span>"
T << "<span class='notice'>Move on.</span>"
log_admin("[key_name(usr)] told [key_name(T)] to man up and deal with it.")
message_admins("\blue [key_name_admin(usr)] told [key_name(T)] to man up and deal with it.", 1)

[Vanagandr]

Pretty sure TG code has the revolver as an expensive item that'll use up most of a traitor's points, with a much weaker, pocketable and silenceable- for a price -automatic as a cheaper option.