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Nerf the Revolver


Susan

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I'm detecting an attitude that corporate security should have superior firepower to a specially-placed agent of opposing corporate interests, or a terrorist, or whatever your traitor happens to be - and I wholeheartedly disagree. The revolver, like any good weapon, is only a win button if you don't know how to combat it effectively.

 

Being on equal footing =/= superior firepower. The problem with your argument is that there is no way to combat a revolver effectively other than hiding in a closet doing nothing, hoping the guy doesn't find you, or buying a sniper rifle and popping the guy in the head. Ballistic weapons aren't as inaccurate as you'd lead us to believe - and considering how this post and the previous show your sheer ignorance of game mechanics and code I'm inclined to take what you say with a grain of salt. No armor on station has any reliable bullet resistance. Bulletproof vests do not protect the head. Pop pop dead, no matter what you're doing, no matter how you're trying to go about the situation. So unless you are suggesting everyone on the station just go pile into a single room and hang up a sign that says 'dear mr antag pls don't come in thank you', I don't know where you're even coming from.

 

Comparing the traitor revolver to the detective's is also a very poor comparison; the detective spends nothing to acquire his weapon and two clips, and can obtain a potentially infinite number by doing something as simple as visiting an autolathe. If a traitor wishes to acquire more ammunition for his, he has to catch a moment with the autolathe, alone, and hope the enormous amount of materials he has to use to create new bullets isn't missed - a measured risk/reward to consider. Just like selecting the traitor's revolver to begin with as opposed to, say, the energy sword, crossbow, emag, or any object the traitor has access to.

 

This is the ignorance I'm talking about. The autolathe actually, does not produce .38 rounds and has not ever since the detective had a Colt. The autolathe spits out .45 rounds instead, and .38 rounds have never been added back to it's list. Therefore, the detective cannot ever acquire new ammunition for his weapon under any circumstances. The 18 rounds you have are all you will ever have. However, the autolathe can print out .357 rounds, and no matter how much you try to play up the antag needing to use an 'enormous amount of materials', it just isn't true. A box of .357 rounds costs the same as a mag of .45 or a speedloader of .35, 50000 metal, and you can stick the empty boxes back into the autolathe for full value. All he needs is some metal, something easily acquirable if there is but a single person in mining, or if he's smart enough to order it from the cargo console. It is incredibly easy to acquire further ammo from an autolathe and not the super dangerous thing you play it out to be. If you know what you're doing you can hack a lathe in under two minutes. So much work.

 

No amount of nerfing will cure the fact that when faced with a dangerous situation, people will occasionally do very stupid things. If you're minding your own business on the station and you charge towards the sound of gunshots when they're going off, you deserve to die by virtue of the sheer stupidity, I don't care what your department is.

 

Unfortunately, Brage, ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away. No lethal weapon security has access to outside of the shotgun can instakill someone so quickly, and nothing security has can counter the revolver. The only way to avoid the overpowered problem the revolver presents is to pretend it isn't there, and when you are literally telling me security needs to ignore the dude running around capping people as if it is a legitimate way to counter the revolver, I don't think you really have anything worthwhile to contribute.

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I'll ignore the whining, moaning, and snark and instead focus on the facts.

 

[...] However, the autolathe can print out .357 rounds [...] Therefore, the detective cannot ever acquire new ammunition for his weapon under any circumstances. [...]

 

The detective's revolver can be modified to chamber .357 ammunition, so yes, as I was saying, the detective can receive a potentially infinite number of clips from the autolathe. Furthermore, logic dictates that it also has access to the absurd amounts of damage you're crusading against.

 

All he needs is some metal, something easily acquirable if there is but a single person in mining, or if he's smart enough to order it from the cargo console. It is incredibly easy to acquire further ammo from an autolathe and not the super dangerous thing you play it out to be. If you know what you're doing you can hack a lathe in under two minutes. So much work.

 

This is assuming that the traitor in question works in cargo. "Order some metal for me, then leave me alone with the autolathe for five minutes" is not as effective a tactic as you make it out to be. You're assuming a best-case scenario for your imaginary antagonist in all respects and then droning on and on about it as if it were the norm. Revolvers have never been a problem in the months and months since it's been around - why now, all of a sudden, are they these ridiculous objects that absolutely must be changed?


Surely it has nothing to do with the fact that you were killed by one.

 

The only way to avoid the overpowered problem the revolver presents is to pretend it isn't there, and when you are literally telling me security needs to ignore the dude running around capping people as if it is a legitimate way to counter the revolver, I don't think you really have anything worthwhile to contribute.

 

Let's assume for a moment that the traitor in question isn't the superhuman you're making them out to be - no matter the strength of your weaponry and armor, there are a few vulnerabilities in every individual that can be taken advantage of. One such element is that of surprise - instead of charging headlong in clear view of an individual with a lethal weapon that can and will kill you, why not:

 

  1. Wait in ambush inside a closet?
  2. Lay down a bear trap in the dark to hinder their mobility?
  3. Throw a gas grenade?
  4. Distract them while a second individual circles around to take them from the opposite direction?
  5. Use one of those flashbangs you're so fond of?
  6. Lure them into a narrow corridor and fire lasers while hiding behind cover? Ballistics take time to reach their target - lasers do not.

 

If I can incapacitate two nuke ops and set them on fire with nothing but a cleaning grenade and a flash, then you can use the authority and equipment of security to deal with one guy with a revolver. I'll even give you another hint free of charge: tables that've been flipped over block movement, but they also provide a substantial chance to absorb incoming ranged projectiles.

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The revolver's intended use is to be a close-up-and-personal assassination weapon that is gory, bloody and it sends a very clear message.


As opposed to, what it's often used for due to its mechanics, it's constantly used as a one-up weapon that apparently can match the DPS of an L6 SAW.


The guy with the laser rifle should have the advantage over the guy with the pocket revolver. Not the other way around.

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Also, as another note about the detective's revolver- (I'm not certain, but I think I can recall.) A certain portion of the code in the detective's revolver has a chance for the revolver to explode in your hand when fired, if loaded with .357 rounds.

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Also, as another note about the detective's revolver- (I'm not certain, but I think I can recall.) A certain portion of the code in the detective's revolver has a chance for the revolver to explode in your hand when fired, if loaded with .357 rounds.

 

Correct. The probability does scale in a strange way, but in a nutshell, the aforementioned helmets have a greater chance of blocking a bullet than the revolver exploding if the individual knows how to mitigate the chance of failure.

 

The revolver's intended use is to be a close-up-and-personal assassination weapon that is gory, bloody and it sends a very clear message.


As opposed to, what it's often used for due to its mechanics, it's constantly used as a one-up weapon that apparently can match the DPS of an L6 SAW.


The guy with the laser rifle should have the advantage over the guy with the pocket revolver. Not the other way around.

 

From the way you're talking about it, I could swear you were talking about the energy sword. In fact, the reason the revolver has finite ammunition is because it's a ranged weapon - it's a distinct drawback. And again - if someone decides to engage an individual with a revolver in a shootout at sixty paces without giving tactics a single thought, they deserve to die. And again-again - Security should not automagically outdo antags in terms of technology. From what I understand about laser weaponry, their advantage isn't that they're super advanced weaponry designed to pierce the skulls of all who cross them. They're easy to use (literally "point and trigger pull,") they're rechargable, and they're simpler to construct - not necessarily more capable of murder than ballistics.


I'm also not sure where you're getting your "easily concealed" argument from. They're normal-sized items like the energy pistols, and you can't stuff them in your pockets or hide them behind the ears of unsuspecting children like quarters. If they stow the gun away within visual range, you'll get a nice little blue-colored message telling you so. That doesn't strike me as easily concealed.

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Hi. From what I can tell, the concerns about the revolver being overpowered stem from several factors. I'll try not to wordwall this time.


1. The two-shot kill.

-- I think this is fair. Seven shots. Someone who goes to the trouble of getting a million bullets when there's not an ERT coming to ruin you and kills everyone should probably be antagbanned anyway. Someone with a weapon as obvious as a revolver is alone, and the station as a collective will either deny you aid or try to stop you.


2. The one-shot kill.

-- As far as I can tell, this is caused by bullets having the edge var set to 1. I kind of like it though. Low chance of dying in one bullet. Seems realistic enough? Infrastructure exists to make it so having the shot part armored will prevent embedding, instant decaps, etc and it's easy to do with like a one-line tweak. Should prevent shrapnel as well. Not sure I want to do this though. This code snippet is likely what caused the detective revolver to instakill that guy. The head can hold a max damage of 75 points. Any more and it is at risk of falling off, unless shot at by sharp things. In which case the risk is substantially higher. Your head generally won't fall off from one shot unless you get point-blanked or unlucky.


3. The revolver is extraordinarily powerful and that doesn't match the other weapons.

-- This is a very silly argument. No, it's true that no other commonly-available ranged weapon kills in two shots. But there are many, many weapons, and yes, ranged-- available that can end a fight in two shots. Or less. Taser. Flashbang. Wet floors. Syringe guns. Sniper rifle. Even ordinary lasers. Even the detective revolver, if we're going by the logic of 'has a chance to instantly kill someone,' which it seems we are. Emphasizing the alone-aspect again here. Two lasers will sink the person hit into paincrit. It'll take a while, but two lasers is all it takes. They're done. I sank into paincrit after getting sniper rifled once. One shot and they're essentially done, if the stun doesn't end them first. Flashbangs and tasers and syringe guns are more obvious. Lawgiver / Nuke ops SMG burst actually hits significantly harder. 75 damage.


4. No counterplay.

-- This is the silliest argument. You can just run around pulling a locker and it'll eat up half the revolver person's bullets, if not more. Get the AI to help. Flashbangs. Set up a trap. Tase them twice. Lase them twice and just walk away-- it's much easier to land a laser shot. Hell, I've ninja-tossed a floortile to shatter a gunman's hand before. And if your argument is 'there's no counterplay because they shot me first,' that holds true for a hundred other things. Like stungloves, or chloral, or stun batons, or just being shot to death by any other gun.


5. The ammo restriction can be powergamed around.

--Okay. Fair. True. But it's an incredible pain. And any self-respecting powergamer, even the ones after mass-murder, wouldn't take the revolver. It gives you firepower but no flexibility, and you can get roughly equivalent firepower easily. Really easily. And even so, if you're just standing around and letting the gunman use all those stockpiled hundred-million bullets, yooouuuuu kinda' don't have room to complain. That's a failing on the crew's part. The crew is a collective and the shooter is alone or alone enough.


No, the revolver is absolutely very deadly. That's its niche. If someone uses it to murder everyone, that's a failing on the part of the antagonist. Antagbans please. I'm with Brage on this one. Also, flipped tables do work. On other servers, standing next to a flipped table is a 40% chance of blocking. Here, it's like 70-80 because cover should be rewarded. If you are lying down while hiding under a table, bullets cannot hit you ever. The block chance is >100.


also 1138 i swear to god if you get one more thing wrong okay the l6 saw is a hundred million times deadlier than the revolver because it has no firedelay. on top of shooting giant deadly bullets, it shoots them at the speed of clicks. old lasers only did 20 damage a shot and with firedelay 0 could change a person from living to dead in the span of about three seconds, or 'faster than the current revolver.' and this is without chance decaps. the smg does 25 and can decap, plus with significantly more ammo. the only ballistic weapons the revolver outclasses are the det revolver and the shotgun. okay im done.

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Halrighty, did some testing.


First, let me just rifle off some numbers and pictures of numbers. The following images are what I'm going to use as a basis for my argument.

Testing procedure:

  • Targets shot until they passed out (into paincrit, rendering them unable to retaliate at all). Once they were on the ground, all firing was stopped.
  • I was firing as fast as I was able, note that certain weapons have built in firedelays, so reference the times on the attack logs.
  • Damage inflected to all of them was enough to kill them, once firing had stopped.

 

Target being a naked bald, shot at by:

 

Target being a dude dressed with ERT duty uniform and a duty jacket:

 

So, what are the conclusions?

The time to kill a feasible target with the laser rifle is roughly 20 seconds of sustained and accurate fire from a single weapon, counting 15 hits.

The time to kill a feasible target with the revolver is roughly 3 seconds of sustained and accurate fire from a single weapon, counting 3 hits.


And that's fine, in my opinion. The lasers have always been a highly utilitarian weapon system, with the capacity to provide another tactical approach to a situation (see: shooting past glass, instead of going through it and then to the target, thus wasting shots). They are not meant to out perform the ballistic weaponry in a toe-to-toe engagement. However, they do have the grounds for that to happen as well: their fire rate is rather fast, when compared to the revolver. My average fire rate with the laser rifle was 1.(3) shots per second on the first test, and 0.75 shots per second on the second test. With the revolver, it was a consistent 1 round per second.


As such, the things that tip the scales into the favour of the revolver are the tactical situation present, and its ability to decap someone on the first hit.


If someone is able to engineer a situation where their weapon out performs that of Security's, then that's fine. That's how it should be: effort should be rewarded. And if Security is unable to adjust their approach to fit the situation, then they should expect casualties.


Should the weapon be used for ramboing and powergaming, then please report the individual for ganking. As simple as that.


And finally, regarding the decaps. As noted, this seems to be the other thing tipping the scales in favour of the revolver. And it is basically a mechanical oddity. In my mind, it shouldn't exactly result in your head flying away. It'll hurt like a bitch, yes, but leave your head attached.


It should also be noted that a single revolver hit does not place you into critical condition. I was able to walk around and conduct actions otherwise for roughly 2-3 minutes before paincrit actually got to me. This is more than enough time to do whatever, if you take a single stray round. Which seems fair. (hard numbers: was able to walk 100+ squares, I actually counted, with a .357 bullet lodged in the skull and the bones moving around in there, before passing out). Also tested, if you're fast enough, you have a potential of stunning or killing, should you have a weapon powerful enough, the shooter. So, unless you get decapped, you are by no means removed from the round after a single hit.


End proposal: leave the damage as is, review the means by which it takes off the head. At that point, you remove the chance of it literally ripping the head off of a target, allowing them to escape if the situation permits it. If the situation doesn't permit it and they die, then they most likely got shot twice or more, and as such, the situation was engineered to favour the opposing side. Which is valid.

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The head-ripping-off thing is actually possibly a bug. I can't find where in the code it does it but it's not from total damage. It's entirely possible there's a hidden second instance where limbs pop off that doesn't call the droplimb proc and doesn't use the word edge in its code, but I'm having trouble finding exactly where it's happening. The only organic limb droplimb (that I can find) happens when an organ takes max damage and then a percentage is run.

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I must be the only person who enjoys guns actually being a threat in a roleplaying game. Forgive the short point I'm about to make, but, think of it this way:

Getting shot isn't something you can just walk away from. Realistically, guns should be doing about 40-80 brute per shot. To compensate, Security should get some armour worth a damn. A standard ballistic vest should be able to 'possibly' take one shot from a weaker sidearm (Of which a .357 Revolver is certainly not), after which it's rendered useless. Instead of the dinky cardboard vests that make up the go-to standard of SS13 Security.


Give your weapons drop-off to make them more potent up close, encouraging a risk vs reward factor in combat. Maybe even make point-blank headshot executions a potent mechanic that requires a good three second warm-up, and can be resisted (auto resisted via any action, if need be)/moved away from to prevent abuse in combat, unless the target is cuffed and buckled/held by a neckgrab, giving some actual merit to hostage situations so you aren't spending a good 4-5 fucking shots taking out your hostage with a gun/e-sword when people ignore your demands. Make it so people moving whilst firing are inaccurate (In melee too), but harder to hit, to encourage usage of cover and not the silly jukefest we have today.


I want people to be /afraid/ of weapons and combat, buff the lasers if you have to, buff the melee weapons if you have to, give Security fucking pistols if you have to so the rest doesn't overwhelm them. But don't go the hugbox anti-combat route of weapons being peashooters you can shrug off. Just look at the dinky Colt that Bay had implemented, doing absolutely miniscule damage even with the lethal rounds, as well as their semi-new 'Silenced pistol' for traitors that does a pathetic /20 brute damage/. I cannot tell you how much I fucking despise the lack of properly balanced combat, with good armour, good weapons, and a rewarding skill ceiling.


Rant's over, just needed to get that out of my system and there's a good chance I won't bother looking back at this thread. But it was worth sharing the opinion of a(n ex-)sec regular who absolutely despises the stun-centric system that rewards cheap chemical shit, bug exploitation (chameleon projector event incident), bullet sponge insta-stun secborgs rushing in, and stupid juke-filled RNG clickfests over powerful/balanced weaponry, organized combat tactics, and sheer brute force in close combat.

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