EvilBrage Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 There's a huge issue with hostage situations right now - namely, that a flashbang can just be tossed into the room while security follows suit and arrests anyone they don't like. A potential solution to this is to make flashbangs less available than they are at present. This might include removing them from the vending machines and the officer's lockers, and simply having them stored in the armory. I don't know a single corporate security force that hands out flashbangs as standard issue self defense articles, so I figure it would be more sensible to keep them in reserve. ICly we could attribute it to a high-profile flashbang accident or something. Also, like the flash objects themselves, I'm not even sure why they cause an individual to slump to the ground, completely helpless for a good ten to fifteen seconds rather than just creating a blinding light and deafening someone like they would in real life. Another solution might be to scale the effect in accordance with the distance of the player from the flashbang and direction they are facing, along with re-evaluating some equipment bonuses; at present, the flashbang arbitrarily provides ear protection to individuals with helmets (which doesn't make sense since our helmet remodel), which means that even if a security officer is caught in his own flashbang, he'll still stand up before his target. All of the above factors make the flashbang a very low-risk weapon to deploy in a hostage scenario, when (I believe) the officer should be at risk if he manages to fumble the flashbang, or it's thrown back at him.
Guest Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 If someone throws a flashbang, shoot the hostage before it blows. After a few dead hostages, security will learn.
Blue Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 I guess we don't really need flashbangs all the time anyways. And when we do, it's definitely for something above code green anyways.
Skull132 Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 One thing I'd like to evaluate is how hardsuits influence the effects of a flashbang on the wearer. To me, it's kind of unbelievable that a combat hardsuit, a completely sealed suit, does not protect you from the effects of this rather ancient (by 2457) tool.
mrimatool Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 Definitely agree with you Skull about the Hardsuits maybe make combat Hardsuits resilient and and honestly I think shooting the hostages is literally the best idea other than making sure to remember to wear your sunglasses, far too many times I've seen Nuke ops taken out by Officer Joe Shmoe and his flash bang box. Shooting the hostages seems harsh but it's the only way that sec will learn. If the people start complaining in OOC about a murderboning Hostage taker, explain that you were roleplaying correctly and that security are to blame.
Susan Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 Hardsuits only are affected by flashbangs in a 3 tile radius and you are only stunned for like 3 seconds. Flashbangs are fine how they are. Using them to break up a hostage situation is completely valid and in line with how they're used in reality. Don't put yourself in a position where they could be used or where you are vulnerable to them and you're golden. All you need is a pair of sunglasses and a 3 tile distance from the grenade.
Guest Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 Stun grenade. A stun grenade, also known as a flash grenade or flashbang, is a non-lethal explosive device used to temporarily disorient an enemy's senses. It is designed to produce a blinding flash of light and intensely loud noise "bang" of greater than 170 decibels (dB) without causing permanent injury. You would assume that most hardsuits have sound dampening, however, to greatly reduce or completely nullify the intense noise effect. Essentially, this is the only part of the flashbang that downs someone in a full hardsuit. Yes, it is only 3 seconds long, but that is more than enough time for a security officer to ready back up and fire 2-3 tasers at the opponent that is /just/ getting up. Given how combat hardsuits would supposedly work, they would have sound dampening technology to reduce the debilitating effects of explosions and other loud noises such as gunfire. I'd be willing for complete immunity as long as this is the only case in which it would work. Other hardsuits that aren't designed for combat (such as excav, softsuits, anything that isn't engineering, security, syndie or ERT hardsuit) wouldn't be affected. And I also hope people won't abuse this mechanic as traitors just to get out of getting flashbanged.
Jamini Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 I'd be willing for complete immunity as long as this is the only case in which it would work. Other hardsuits that aren't designed for combat (such as excav, softsuits, anything that isn't engineering, security, syndie or ERT hardsuit) wouldn't be affected. Engineering suits are not designed for combat. I see no reason why they should have immunity to flashbangs. Let's not needlessly buff engineering gear for combat, please.
Gollee Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 I'd be willing for complete immunity as long as this is the only case in which it would work. Other hardsuits that aren't designed for combat (such as excav, softsuits, anything that isn't engineering, security, syndie or ERT hardsuit) wouldn't be affected. Engineering suits are not designed for combat. I see no reason why they should have immunity to flashbangs. Let's not needlessly buff engineering gear for combat, please. Reread what he wrote, he stated that non-combat suits shouldn't be buffed.
SgtSammac Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 I'd be willing for complete immunity as long as this is the only case in which it would work. Other hardsuits that aren't designed for combat (such as excav, softsuits, anything that isn't engineering, security, syndie or ERT hardsuit) wouldn't be affected. Engineering suits are not designed for combat. I see no reason why they should have immunity to flashbangs. Let's not needlessly buff engineering gear for combat, please. Reread what he wrote, he stated that non-combat suits shouldn't be buffed. No, but he did say "engineering, security, syndie or ERT."
Jamini Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 Reread what he wrote, he stated that non-combat suits shouldn't be buffed. He included engineering in the list of suits that would be buffed. They shouldn't be.
Skull132 Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 The stupidly blunt fact is that any hardsuit would probably be able to mute the flash. Due to radiation shielding and so on. Further more, all hardsuits would have filtered audio, and it could thus be argued that they manage the sound as well. Bypass: non-combat hardsuits lack high enough grade audiofilters to execute the latter task, and as such, produce a rather high pitched screech whenever they get overloaded by the bang. Thus incapacitating the wearer.
Guest Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 I'd be willing for complete immunity as long as this is the only case in which it would work. Other hardsuits that aren't designed for combat (such as excav, softsuits, anything that isn't engineering, security, syndie or ERT hardsuit) wouldn't be affected. Engineering suits are not designed for combat. I see no reason why they should have immunity to flashbangs. Let's not needlessly buff engineering gear for combat, please. Engineering suits would make sense to have sound dampening given that engineers would typically be working with construction equipment, ja? Which, is typically loud as shit and why construction workers wear these babies: But as Skull said above, hm. Well, for the sake of game balance, we probably shouldn't buff engineering hardsuits, then.
mrimatool Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 Sue, we're not contesting that flashbangs are bad, we're talking about them being overpowered and a constant disruption to antagonist RP. I know you hate antags but for the rest of the people who enjoy hostage RP, Flashbangs are our worst enemy. Even as a hostage I sit there praying that sec doesn't come in and flashbang everything, in an attempt to save the hostage when realistically they would be getting them killed
Susan Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 Apparently you misunderstand how police deal with hostage scenarios. Yes, they have snipers. Yes, they will blow your head off if they have good reason to while minimizing putting hostages at risk. No, tossing flashbangs does not mean the hostages would realistically get popped like ducks in a carnival game. I don't know if you've ever been flashbanged before but it's not something you can just shrug off to begin capping hostages. If there are circumstances wherein it is believed the hostage taker does not intend to let the hostages live, will not negotiate, has killed hostages already, etc etc, then it is likely deciding to eliminate the hostage taker is a better plan to ensure the safety of remaining hostages. Taking a hostage should not under any circumstances be an auto-win for 'give me what I want'. Flashbangs are not overpowered. They are so easy to mitigate it is completely ridiculous that you're trying to argue about this while there is an abundance of sunglasses both as a custom gear option and in maintenance to utterly counter their effects. Flashbangs are designed for hostage scenarios. Security has no obligation to negotiate with an individual who has shown a clear and present predisposition toward violence because it is good evidence to suggest the guy will cap the hostages anyway. 'Being a constant disruption to antagonist RP' is literally the entire security department most shifts. Do we want to remove security too? If the antagonist gets fucked by security, that's part of the game. If security gets fucked by the antagonist, that is also part of the game. They both have a lot of tools available to them, and antags tend to have the more overpowered ones. Do not put yourself in a situation where you can get flashbanged. Rooms with an exit only you have access to, planned escape routes, big open areas to prevent being caught. Instead of blaming a weapon that can be so easily countered by something even cargo people have access to, try thinking up an actual tactic on how to avoid the dreaded flashbang.
Skull132 Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 The interesting fact is that the principal force that needs a tool against flashbangs, even a moderate one, does not get them. That would be the nuke operatives. Which is why I'm in favour of still modifying their hardsuit helmets to provide protection from it.
mrimatool Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 Literally the biggest problem is that the nuke ops don't have access to the right tool of defence, in this case sunglasses, however Cargo do. Are the Syndicate against style or something?
canon35 Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 I want flashbangs to stay in. They're a perfect weapon to use during hostage situations, open one door, flashbang, 3 officers charge in. Yes, it makes little sense they're open to every sec officer, at the same time we still have an armoury despite it being a science station, and that we also have a bar, chapel, and an office that no one uses.
EvilBrage Posted March 13, 2015 Author Posted March 13, 2015 Okay, so apparently my point has been lost, so let me restate: I don't want flashbangs to be removed, I want the idiot officer who got caught in his own flashbang to pay a heavy price instead of having arbitrary ear protection from wearing a helmet (and thereby being able to stand closer to it.)
SierraKomodo Posted March 13, 2015 Posted March 13, 2015 Okay, so apparently my point has been lost, so let me restate: I don't want flashbangs to be removed, I want the idiot officer who got caught in his own flashbang to pay a heavy price instead of having arbitrary ear protection from wearing a helmet (and thereby being able to stand closer to it.) I agree with this.
Nik Posted March 18, 2015 Posted March 18, 2015 Stahp. They are fine. They aren't even hard to negate. The HOS with a dermal plate and huds can't even be downed for longer then a few seconds, and anyone in a hard suit has the same blessing. We don't need to bugger with them or make them less available, they are the only AOE tactic sec has for handling crowds. Making them less effective makes them worthless, and making them completely negated by hard suits make them become the sunglasses of today And as a point, if you're not aware, a flash (I mean the green dildo thing) causes your brain to overload. That's why you fall over. It's the same reason why deer get caught in headlights, because sudden bright light buggers the brain like a suave lover. Not sure if anyone clarified this, just wanted to toss this here.
EvilBrage Posted March 23, 2015 Author Posted March 23, 2015 And as a point, if you're not aware, a flash (I mean the green dildo thing) causes your brain to overload. That's why you fall over. It's the same reason why deer get caught in headlights, because sudden bright light buggers the brain like a suave lover. Not sure if anyone clarified this, just wanted to toss this here. No no no no no. No. If something is so bright that it can overload your brain in half a second of exposure (spoiler alert, this isn't a thing in real life,) I doubt that it could be blocked by sunglasses of any translucency. And that is not why deer are caught in headlights. When an eye that has been in the dark long enough to regenerate significant quantities of rhodopsin is suddenly exposed to bright light, a phenomenon of “bleaching,” or oversaturation, occurs, and on a massive scale. The result in humans is temporary, or flash, blindness, not a shutdown of the brain. With deer, remember that their pupils are larger and far more dilated at night than a human eye. Compound this with the greater amount of light that will reach the retina due to their larger lens, as well as their higher concentration of rods (and rhodopsin), and multiply that by two thanks to their tapetum, together this creates a perfect storm of oversaturation. Add to this the fact that, up to the point of blinding light, the deer had been enjoying terrific night sight (thanks also to their UV vision), and the combined effect of sudden blindness must be bewildering and overwhelming – causing the deer to potentially freeze. If anything, a more realistic implementation would be a period of whiteout on the screen (similar to the visual effect now) but with not knockdown effect. I'd even go for an extension of the blindness. But knocking people down? I've always thought that was just silly. [...] The HOS with a dermal plate and huds can't even be downed for longer then a few seconds, and anyone in a hard suit has the same blessing [...] That's the very problem I'm trying to address, though; as the head of security, I could prime a flashbang and run into a room full of hostages held by an armed individual, chanting the war cries of my people, and when it pops I'm the first one up and I can waltz on over to the nearest vending machine, sip on some Robust Coffee, then come back and cuff the criminal (based on a true story.) That is ridiculous. Level the playing field for everyone, is what I'm suggesting.
Nik Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 You do recognize that Security is heavily weakened without power gaming, right? Hell, half the time they lack a warden or HOS to gear them up, so you find Sec going at Ninja's and Wizards with stun guns and batons. It's why I am so adamant about giving them some more tech, because they've been left behind by the other jobs in term of actual functionality, and they have very few items that can solve concerns that someone else doesn't have a better version of. Specifically, without flashbangs, we mine as well have Security waving their genitals at Nuke ops and Heist rounds, because they would never win in a direct confrontation of Sec vs multiple antag.
Jamini Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 You do recognize that Security is heavily weakened without power gaming, right? Hell, half the time they lack a warden or HOS to gear them up, so you find Sec going at Ninja's and Wizards with stun guns and batons. It's why I am so adamant about giving them some more tech, because they've been left behind by the other jobs in term of actual functionality, and they have very few items that can solve concerns that someone else doesn't have a better version of. Specifically, without flashbangs, we mine as well have Security waving their genitals at Nuke ops and Heist rounds, because they would never win in a direct confrontation of Sec vs multiple antag. I will point out that security here has objectively stronger equipment than they do on any server that runs Baystation code. Which is very large number of servers today. (They are one of three major codebases. The other two being TG and Goon) The only disadvantage that you have here is you still use electrodes instead of stunbeams for tasers. Your detective gun and orderable equipment are slightly stronger as well. Perhaps on nuke, security should need to work with other departments to succeed? Getting guns from research or cargo, defensive reinforcement from engineering, and combat drug mixes (hyperzine, synaptazine, tramadol) from medical, not to mention offensive chemical grenades, can drastically improve sec abilities. Promoting inter-departmental dependence, especially for security, is a good thing. Not a bad one. Basically... security shouldn't be able too or reasonably expect to win against the operatives alone.
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