Staff Complaint - Alberyk

[Vulcenus]

BYOND Key: Vulcenus
Staff BYOND Key: Alberyk
Game ID: b8l-acir
Reason for complaint: I originally didn't bother to write a complaint on this situation given I didn't know I was being formally noted/warned but after it was mentioned regarding my Command Application, I decided to put this up in order to have it overturned if deemed acceptable.

I would like to start with explaining the situation leading to the admin ticket from my perspective. I walked into the station after the antagonists of the round, announced their visit as Idris Reclamation Units in order to collect debts from the crew members, reasoning being heightened presence in the system or something along the lines. After I equipped my gear, I showed up in the Security Lobby and met with the units. They asked me if we had a Vacant Office that they could use, and I led them there. As they were settling in, I asked them who the debtors were and asked them if they made sure to grab their papers for a smooth collection. They brushed me off, told me that they weren't miracle workers. After a brief time had passed, they showed up to the Bar, where I was present with the majority of the Security team given there was a table-fight tournament happening with bets, which had annoyed the Station AI, and it kept sending announcements to stop the said tournament. It was highly populated, given almost half the server population was in there either fighting or observing. Then the IRUs waltz in, and tell Darvan Omega that he owes them around seven thousand credits. Omega plays off their gimmick, and mostly cooperates with them, but a dreg character steps in and protests this collection and the IRUs' presence in here.

The IRUs proceed to box them in, and tell them to leave, which they can't, given they're boxed in. Then the ISU pulls out a kneehammer and attacks the dreg character, which isn't related to the debtor and is a non-debtor themselves (which makes the scene sort of suspicious and violates station procedures), and this rallies the entire room to attack the IRUs. As the crew is about to lynch the IRU couple after throwing EMP grenades and sort of neutralizing them, making them unable to fight back, the Security officers take initiative to detain the IRUs for their own protection and bring them back to the Lobby in order to talk about the incident. After we got them to safety, we started questioning the incident and their involvement in it. Being an Idris Incorporated officer with knowledge of Reclamation operations outside the station, I ask them if their validation notices/letters are with them, and they respond to this by showing me their badges. Given the misunderstanding, I explain them what a validation letter is, saying it's the paperwork for debt collection (used by Banks and private firms in real life), informing them that it has the debtor's name, the amount owed, and the creditor's name seeking payment written on it, so they could give me an explanation or fake the papers or something, but instead I was adminhelped for "shutting down their gimmick" after committing suspicious actions in the round.

The same gimmick was done just a day ago, with another couple of IRUs showing up to collect a debt from Ian White. They wanted to collect his organs for payment and actually requested our cooperation involving the collection, along with a ISU that was with me at the time. They make a simple emote displaying the information of the debt contract on their IPC monitor, and this was enough for us to "enable" their gimmick and move on from there. We proceeded to actively seek out and help the IRUs involved in this until, just like the second incident, they hurt a non-debtor crew member, and we had to detain them for it.

All in all, I believe writing a note regarding "doing my best to shut down antag gimmicks" and "validhunty behaviour" was uncalled for.
Evidence/logs/etc:

Additional remarks: Not really

[Alberyk]

There was an announcement message from cc that they were there to collect the debt. As I explained, my issue was not your character's opposition to their presence, but you trying to grasp all straws you could find to try to prove that they were somehow false. You could have tried to improv and came up with other reason to opposte them instead of pointing out that they were fake or illegitimate. Whatever banks do in real life don't matter, it is not a regular bank, it is a megacorp with an army of robots that can beat people to collect debts.

I recommend that you just try to roll with the punches instead of trying to poke roles in the antag gimmick, which is why I put the note.

[Vulcenus]

18 minutes ago, Alberyk said:

 There was an announcement message from cc that they were there to collect the debt. As I explained, my issue was not your character's opposition to their presence, but you trying to grasp all straws you could find to try to prove that they were somehow false. You could have tried to improv and came up with other reason to opposte them instead of pointing out that they were fake or illegitimate. Whatever banks do in real life don't matter, it is not a regular bank, it is a megacorp with an army of robots that can beat people to collect debts.

I recommend that you just try to roll with the punches instead of trying to poke roles in the antag gimmick, which is why I put the note.

I understand that the issue here is not why I'm opposing the characters. But I also did nothing that would warrant saying "grasping all straws I could find to prove they were false", given all I did was asking for ANY kind of document or ANYTHING at all that could've been used for a debt collection, and I've never aired out my opinions on either the common comms channel, or the Security channel, about how the IRUs are fake, wrong or something in the lines, which is, let's be honest, common practice in any given secret round by everyone.

Still, all I did was asking the IRUs face to face regarding Omega's debt, and their reasoning regarding striking the non-debtor in the knees. I never acted upon, physically or otherwise, on the knee breaking incident AND the absence of any sort of paperwork or something that could be shown that could make us go: "Hmm, yes, Omega has this amount of debt, and these two are here to collect."

Nobody in the room including myself was overtly hostile, if hostile at all, against the IRUs, and all they should've done would be giving an explanation or like the previous IRU couple did, a simple emote that would've "shut down" the situation in a flash. But instead they were standing there arguing about who capped whom's knees and showing me a badge.

I would've understood the reasoning behind calling me a validhunter and going out of my way to shut down their gimmicks if I arrested the IRUs, shot them down, threw EMP grenades, yelled on common comms that they're fake Idris employees or anything other than what I've done really, but given that I only questioned the validity of the collection, I don't think this is a proper call.

P.S: Although obviously it's not something that can be proven, my main point with the notice was to encourage co-operation instead of thinking of Security as a hostile force to be dealt with, by giving them a foothold of legality by showing me some sort of notice and use me, an Idris Security Officer as an advantage or an aid, like the previous duo who used the same gimmick before them. But they did nothing but opposing and denying that they struck the non-debtor, which honestly ties my hands on any sort of alternative approach.

Edited July 29, 2020 by Vulcenus

[Valkrae]

I don't know if this was allowed, but I was one of the IRUs in this round.

I had no issue with his actions towards us, as I didn't really know the Idris lore all that well. His staunch refusal to allow us to continue without showing validation notices was really cool, and it increased my enjoyment of the round, since it felt like the people whomst we were after had people fighting for them.

Honestly? I enjoyed the round, even if I did end up being lynched by the Station. It felt like there was a really interesting dynamic between Security, the station, and the IRUs. I don't think his behavior was at all validhuntey(Is that a word?)

[Alberyk]

Like I said, the issue was not the opposition to them in any shape, but questioning the validity of whatever they were doing, aka poking holes in whatever they prepared, when they already went out of their way to make an announcement saying they were eris debts collectors.

[Vulcenus]

And again, nothing was done to the IRUs based on my suspicions. I also told Security that the IRU did not break any procedures, and it was the ISU that was in breach of corporate regulations by attacking said crew member. Even then, the ISU wasn't arrested for the said action if I'm recalling correctly. Like I said, the questions were not there to poke holes on their gimmick, on the contrary, to involve Security in their gimmick and give them credibility. Of course that was my intention until said ISU was brought in by the other officers. I still fail to see any behaviour that points to validhunting here. As they were Idris debt collectors, I wanted to hook myself and the security into the gimmick but was met with opposition by the ISU, in the form of defending their actions regarding excessive force on the dreg.

[Alberyk]

Quote

[2020-07-27 01:24:36.325] b8l-acir SAY: vulcenus/(Ronald Monday) : (Ceti Basic) Can I see your validation notice?
[2020-07-27 01:25:25.372] b8l-acir SAY: vulcenus/(Ronald Monday) : (Ceti Basic) The <b>validation notice</b> is the paperwork with the information on his debt, you can't collect a debt without a validation notice.
[2020-07-27 01:25:55.479] b8l-acir SAY: vulcenus/(Ronald Monday) : (Ceti Basic) You're telling me you didn't bring the validation notices for the debtors, on a debt collection mission?
[2020-07-27 01:28:47.925] b8l-acir SAY: vulcenus/(Ronald Monday) : (Ceti Basic) They can't collect your debt without a validation notice, Omega.
[2020-07-27 01:28:55.255] b8l-acir SAY: vulcenus/(Ronald Monday) : (Ceti Basic) Until you're given a notice, you don't have to pay.
[2020-07-27 01:29:57.070] b8l-acir SAY: vulcenus/(Ronald Monday) : (Ceti Basic) Like I said, it has to be written.

If this is not you trying to gotcha them by making up some head canon stuff: presuming that a megacorp that has robots that collect people's debt through intimidation needs some paper, even when they already made an announcement. You are also missing the point, this is not a good behavior at all, you should improv, learn how to say yes and go from there, instead of trying to poke holes in what the antags were trying to do. If you opposed them due to conflicting morals or because they were brutish, sure that would be fine. But this behavior is bad, and it is what creates the meme of heads of staff faxing cc after getting a station announcement to confirm if what it says is real at all.

[Vulcenus]

27 minutes ago, Alberyk said:

If this is not you trying to gotcha them by making up some head canon stuff: presuming that a megacorp that has robots that collect people's debt through intimidation needs some paper, even when they already made an announcement. You are also missing the point, this is not a good behavior at all, you should improv, learn how to say yes and go from there, instead of trying to poke holes in what the antags were trying to do. If you opposed them due to conflicting morals or because they were brutish, sure that would be fine. But this behavior is bad, and it is what creates the meme of heads of staff faxing cc after getting a station announcement to confirm if what it says is real at all.

That (my remarks) doesn't invalidate that they are Idris Reclamation Units, though. While I'm questioning the validity of the debt collection, I'm still assuming and acting as if they are proper Reclamation Units. Sure, it is making up some head canon to a degree, but the Lore Canonization applications discourage you from applying for reasonable fluff material (such as this, I believe). But that's not the topic of this discussion. Like you said, Idris Incorporated is a megacorporation, and not an illegal organization with a loan sharking front. I already pointed it out in the tickets, and I still disagree with the take that just because Idris employs robots that collect debt through intimitadion and reasonable force, doesn't mean they aren't doing their paperworks. Then again, I believe it's a topic for another discussion. This could've been easily averted by the antagonists by writing something as simple as "Darvan Omega, 7000 Credits, Idris Incorporated" i.e, or an emote by the IPC displaying Darvan Omega's debt on its monitor (as was done by the previous duo using the gimmick). Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they're supposed to do that, but it's a pretty simple alternative that would've defused the situation. Not to mention the gimmick resumed after this stand-off, with them releasing information on the debtors, as far as I know. 

Maybe I could use a better wording for "They can't collect your debt without a validation notice" but, again, I still don't think this is shutting down anybody's gimmick or hunting valids at all. Nobody asked any head of staff to fax Central Command or validate their arrival or identity, it's an opposition due to standard procedure, I believe a reasonable one at that, and a valid reason to oppose.

[ReadThisNamePlz]

Hi, sorry for this late reply. 

@MattAtlas and I will be handling this complaint. 

[MattAtlas]

We have gone over the complaint and we've found out that the note is valid. However, we don't actually think you were attempting to validhunt to the degree that the note implies, which is why it'll be reworded to better match what happened.

While we can see your reasoning, applying IRL logic to a game that's 440 years in the future with megacorps that can extrajudicially murder you without a second thought isn't exactly correct. Specifically regarding validation notes, it is pretty cheap to demand an antagonist show you some mock paperwork that they had no idea they should've brought, especially after a central command announcement validating their arrival. You can say that they should've done X, but at the time they had no way to know since this isn't written in the lore. It would've however been valid to doubt the IRUs based on their behaviour, for example.

This will be locked in 24 hours.

[Vulcenus]

While I disagree that it was cheap, I can see the reasoning behind how demanding a specific paperwork is "inappropriate" given it isn't specified on the faction's wiki page. I still believe it is within reason that Idris Incorporated operates with paperwork regarding debt collection, and suggest an addition to the page/lore, but I'm sure this isn't the place for the said suggestion. The revised note is also appropriate, so I have no further additions.

[MattAtlas]

off this goes, then