A little love for post-startup engineering

[HouseOfSynth]

Rounds in engineering often start the same way. The engine gets set up, usually with the same gas, the SMES gets upgraded and RCON gets set. Then comes the wait for something to break. Most of the other departments have ongoing things that take up time after the round begins. Science have research, they experiment with weapons and circuits. Build robots, mechsuits etc. Medical is a little more limited but chemists can spend most of the round experimenting with chemical mixtures, making situational chem bottles. You get the idea.

 

I'd like to make this project about giving more things for engineering to do post startup. For example: Myself and @Crozarius were talking about ways to make the engine a little more interesting and he had an interesting thought. He proposed that different gases should interact with the SM in different ways. Changing it's properties. Similar to how anomalies work but with different properties that make more sense for a energy holding space crystal. Expanding on this a little bit, if the right set of properties can be decided it would also give atmospherics a little life. Personally I've never seen the gas mixing station used, not since the days of exodus at least. I'm thinking different ratios of gases could give different proportions of effects, some more desirable than others. This could also give antags another thing to play with. Currently the only thing an antag can do with the engine is cause a delamination with staff permission which sucks for most parties involved. Giving them more alleys with the engine couldn't hurt? I'd still recommend staff permission though.

 

Now changing gases in the supermatter is a little tedious, especially after the crystal is charged. If you run a phoron setup and shoot the thing with 25 shots, then try swapping to straight nitrogen you're going to have a bad time. So, for example, a gas mixture could be added that causes the SM to release it's energy in some other form over a shorter period of time, say 5-10 minutes, allowing for a little experimentation mid-round with the gases. Perhaps through extreme ionising rays that need to be contained in some way. It could also be that, in a delamination situation a mixture could exist where it causes the core to release all it's energy in some other form to give a (dangerous) alternative to a full core ejection. These are details I'd love to discuss with people and iron out over time.

 

I'm still at a beginner level in terms of code, but I'm growing more and more confident over time. I plan to work on this project over the coming months along with other things that pop into my head or bug fixes. I'm hoping the more coding I do for other implementations and bug fixes the more I will be able to bring this project to life with that experience. If that makes sense.

 

If you have any other suggestions as to what you think could improve engineering post-startup then don't hesitate to say. I'm all ears. Thank you for listening to my TED talk.

Edited August 4, 2020 by HouseOfSynth
Shifted the focus to improving engineering rather than just the engine

[Haydizzle]

I think my commentary here might sound like detracting or being counter productive, but I promise that isn't the intent.

I don't play engineering too often, but I feel there's always something to do if you aren't looking to go out of your way and RP. Engineering is in the cool spot of being able to build a lot of stuff around the station, or, with permission of a department, even entirely remodel what it looks like. There's also various spots in maintenance that make for fun usings, such as the theater by the bar for one. If you're looking for stuff to do, there are a lot of neat things you can do in that regard.

When it comes to actually adding things or changing stuff up, I don't think it would be too necessary to add different ways for the SM engine to work, largely because there are other power generators available to people too. Tesla, solars, stuff of that sort to get you going. That said, I do agree that more antag ways to fuck with engines without them blowing up would be a cool addition to the game.

For more actual suggestions and additions, perhaps an expansion on what can be constructed? Unsure how easy or possible that is, or what is entirely in the code already for this.

[StationCrab]

I think another way to make engineering more interesting is to loosen the restrictions on modifying the station. A lot of times when engineering wants to build a new area, or setup the construction level as a lounge, it gets blocked by command staff. 

[HouseOfSynth]

Sorry for the late reply, bunch of late shifts recently.

On 30/07/2020 at 15:28, Haydizzle said:

I think my commentary here might sound like detracting or being counter productive, but I promise that isn't the intent.

Not at all! Any and all feedback is welcome. This is something I plan to hash out and work on over the coming months. Even if nothing comes from it (Of course that'd be less than ideal) I'll still net some valuable experience code-wise.

 

On 30/07/2020 at 15:28, Haydizzle said:

I don't play engineering too often, but I feel there's always something to do if you aren't looking to go out of your way and RP. Engineering is in the cool spot of being able to build a lot of stuff around the station, or, with permission of a department, even entirely remodel what it looks like. There's also various spots in maintenance that make for fun usings, such as the theater by the bar for one. If you're looking for stuff to do, there are a lot of neat things you can do in that regard.

I get that, I've edited the post to shift the focus out a little and place the project on the whole of engineering, not just the engine. I do agree there are things to do in the maintenances and such. However I feel like engineering needs that """technical"""  aspect. Like science have guns to play with and all that jazz, I wanted to give people something interesting to do on the more technical side of things. Mixing gases in as accurate ratios as they can to get desired effects for example. But to reiterate this project is about giving engineers more things to do post startup so I'm in total agreement with you. Maybe it's not necessary but it would still be pretty fun.

 

On 30/07/2020 at 15:28, Haydizzle said:

When it comes to actually adding things or changing stuff up, I don't think it would be too necessary to add different ways for the SM engine to work, largely because there are other power generators available to people too. Tesla, solars, stuff of that sort to get you going. That said, I do agree that more antag ways to fuck with engines without them blowing up would be a cool addition to the game.

Covered this a little bit above where I talked about giving more technical things to do. Giving antags more things to do engine-wise is another spur for this part of the project because at the moment it is just a case of turning on the emitter, turning off waste or flipping the pump that brings the cold loop through the radiators. Each of these ultimately lead to a delamination and I think giving more effects could be beneficial to antags.

 

On 30/07/2020 at 15:28, Haydizzle said:

For more actual suggestions and additions, perhaps an expansion on what can be constructed? Unsure how easy or possible that is, or what is entirely in the code already for this.

I'm totally down for this, what kind of things would you like to see constructable? Shouldn't be a problem code-wise since I can use other constructable/modular objects as framework. I'm 90% sure this is within the scope of my current ability.

 

On 30/07/2020 at 23:12, StationCrab said:

I think another way to make engineering more interesting is to loosen the restrictions on modifying the station. A lot of times when engineering wants to build a new area, or setup the construction level as a lounge, it gets blocked by command staff. 

Yeah this is station directive stuff, and does ultimately depend on your command staff. I don't really know if I can get away with changing stuff like this. The construction level was meant to be used for something so ICly there's all kinds of reasons they could say no. But if you have any ideas as to fleshing out the directives a little bit. Engineering have like one line in the directives that covers this. I'd have to bounce it around some people but I could give it a go.

Edited August 4, 2020 by HouseOfSynth

[Boggle08]

Honestly? Construction projects are usually hollow efforts. Most of them start off with a CE backing them, end thirty minutes to an hour after completion, and then get ignored by the entire crew for the rest of the round. There after, the transfer happens, the shuttle sends everyone back to centcomm, and then the server purges your progress. And this is if you don't get interrupted by carp, blobs, or station antaggery. We have so many lounges, break rooms, and hang out spaces, adding another one does not matter.

 

Regardless if we are HRP or not, mechanical complexity is one of the selling points for SS13, and having a mechanically complex engine in a relatively tame server is perfect for mechanical experimentation and exploration. The best part of the SM, and why I think it is superior to our other engines, is it's reliance and interaction with atmos mechanics, allowing for a lot more creativity when it comes to unorthodox coolant setups, pipe reconstruction, delamination strategies, and engine restoration tactics. 

I really like what you are proposing. If I had a suggestion, it would be to add beneficial effects to the crystal, depending upon if certain conditions are met. For example, put in a certain gas ratio at a certain temperature? The Crystal is now outputting Hawking radiation, and you can gather that with radiation collectors. Do the same thing with a different ratio of gas at a different temperature? The crystal is now generating an new compound of gas with unique properties that can either be utilized by the crew or sold to cargo for a decent sum.

[HouseOfSynth]

On 06/08/2020 at 18:44, Boggle08 said:

I really like what you are proposing. If I had a suggestion, it would be to add beneficial effects to the crystal, depending upon if certain conditions are met. For example, put in a certain gas ratio at a certain temperature? The Crystal is now outputting Hawking radiation, and you can gather that with radiation collectors. Do the same thing with a different ratio of gas at a different temperature? The crystal is now generating an new compound of gas with unique properties that can either be utilized by the crew or sold to cargo for a decent sum.

This is the general drive behind the experimentation yeah. Giving beneficial and detrimental effects with different mixtures, also down on giving temperature changes an effect if I can figure out a way to regulate the temperature. There's still quite a bit of on-paper planning to do, I've just been too busy to do it so far. Whether or not I'll actually be able to deliver I don't know but I'm definitely going to try.

[furrycactus]

One of my favourite things about Engineering is that it gives you a lot of free time to RP after the important stuff is done, so I don't think we should add anything that's essentially mandatory to do. However, adding optional side things for engineers to do is something that could be cool. I can't list any immediate ideas off the top of my head, but I do know that other servers like TGstation have a much much more robust atmospherics system, for instance, with a much larger amount of gasses that can be fun to make and do fun things.

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Guide_to_Atmospherics#The_Gases_and_Their_Functions

Not suggesting we make a direct port of absolutely everything there, but it could be a good source of ideas for things for Atmospheric Technicians to do after roundstart, as well, perhaps. For example, adding hydrogen gas (which could be used for the SM like Baystation) and giving it conditions to be able to be compressed into metallic hydrogen, or given to Toxins for bomb making, or to make ammonia crystals for ??? selling at cargo or something. Or tritium gas, which could also be compressed into tritium bars, or used with radiation collectors to generate research points (only relevant if Geeves' gradual research system goes through), or also for Toxins. Or pluoxium to make people feel helpful with refilling internals tanks and stuff. Or freon to make hot ice if you're crazy enough to also sell at cargo. Heck, their atmospherics system also allows for fusion, if you're crazy enough to make a fire that's hot and dense enough.

Not saying that this is all stuff that should just be a copy+paste port, but it's an example of some extra 'optional' things we could look into to give engineering (though really Atmos in this case) something to do if they feel like it.

[HouseOfSynth]

4 hours ago, furrycactus said:

One of my favourite things about Engineering is that it gives you a lot of free time to RP after the important stuff is done, so I don't think we should add anything that's essentially mandatory to do. However, adding optional side things for engineers to do is something that could be cool. I can't list any immediate ideas off the top of my head, but I do know that other servers like TGstation have a much much more robust atmospherics system, for instance, with a much larger amount of gasses that can be fun to make and do fun things.

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Guide_to_Atmospherics#The_Gases_and_Their_Functions

Not suggesting we make a direct port of absolutely everything there, but it could be a good source of ideas for things for Atmospheric Technicians to do after roundstart, as well, perhaps. For example, adding hydrogen gas (which could be used for the SM like Baystation) and giving it conditions to be able to be compressed into metallic hydrogen, or given to Toxins for bomb making, or to make ammonia crystals for ??? selling at cargo or something. Or tritium gas, which could also be compressed into tritium bars, or used with radiation collectors to generate research points (only relevant if Geeves' gradual research system goes through), or also for Toxins. Or pluoxium to make people feel helpful with refilling internals tanks and stuff. Or freon to make hot ice if you're crazy enough to also sell at cargo. Heck, their atmospherics system also allows for fusion, if you're crazy enough to make a fire that's hot and dense enough.

Not saying that this is all stuff that should just be a copy+paste port, but it's an example of some extra 'optional' things we could look into to give engineering (though really Atmos in this case) something to do if they feel like it.

Oh wow! I didn't realise they had this. I'll give it a look. As for making the mixing mandatory I still want straight setups to work, although I might try to push away from straight phoron engines by beefing nitrogen slightly and making it so that phoron creates much more radiation and needs a gas to balance it, for example. But giving more to atmos is, I feel, definitely necessary as at the moment it's extremely underused beyond asking the AI for access so you can steal tanks.

[ImmortalRedshirt]

What I think engineering needs is an engine that can't go forgotten after roundstart and a reason to leave their little fortress and interact with the station at large if there's no hull breaches or anything like that happening. I don't think any other server has that, though. Well, maybe one does but "human sacrifice engine" doesn't really fit our setting well(I'm not invited there so I don't know how it really works). But I may have an idea. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, it's time for:

ImmortalRedshirt's Bad Idea of the Day!

Currently in the setting, there is a phoron shortage going on. What can happen is that instead of starting the round with phoron, we get diluted phoron instead, since Nanotrasen/Tau Ceti are trying to extend the lifetime of what they can extract from Romanovich. It works, but it provides nowhere near enough power as pure phoron. You will not be able to power the whole station on what you have and will have to decide, whether by debate or decree. Fortunately, engineering has a small supply of special high-capacity prefilled power cells which can be inserted right into a substation that gives it a good couple minutes of power. But wait! There's phoron in the asteroid! We can use that to power the engine! That depends on the miners, though.

In order to use the phoron from mining, it must be inserted into a giant, unmovable machine in cargo. This machine will require "Phoron Vaporisation Chambers" which can only be ordered from the shuttle and have a limited lifespan. In order to balance the operating costs of this machine, cargo may require something from engineering, encouraging a system of barter. Once the engineers have enough pure phoron, they can flush the engine loops and do what we're already doing.

There may possibly be some flaws in this plan and critical details that need to be included, but I can't think of them right now.

[furrycactus]

This makes it sound essentially like a mandatory undertaking, so I'm not a massive fan. Plus, cargo already has pretty rigid responsibilities to fill the High Priority phoron bounties these days (3 full gas canisters, 110-130 sheets, etc.) which is already a considerable undertaking with the phoron scarcity, and is nearly impossible on lowpop. If you don't have mining around on lowpop then engineering will be in a bit of a bind if they're trying to run the SM, it sounds.