Player/Character Complaint - Bokaza

[Guest]

BYOND Key: XanderDox

Player Byond Key: Bokaza

Reason for complaint: Drastically changing the way Mutiny is supposed to be played to suit his own needs.

Approximate Date/Time: March 17th, Sometime between 3:00 or whatever I dont own a clock

Basically, it was a Mutiny round, I was HoS and Head Mut, which I reluctantly readied as because the players really wanted Mutiny. Bokaza was Captain Elena Raschnikova. Directive was bluespace pathogen (a directive Ive now come to loathe, because it makes next to no sense but whatever) the round was progressing fine, things got a tad strange when I had done nothing overtly mutiny-ee, but the Captain had my own security force spying on me nonetheless. Then, its time, I decide to make a move against the Captain with Senior Doctor Mason's support, as well as the AI's. What ends up happening is I declared Elena/Bokaza stripped of authority, for the crimes of conspiracy to commit mass murder and exceeding official authority. After a large argument in the hall, Elena decides to say "The crew have spoken, the infected wont be killed, arrest Lux for mutiny"

At this point, he's already thrown the entire gamemode out the window, and directed all blame onto me. 1. He disregards the objective completely, which is their MISSION AND ROLE IN MUTINY TO FULFILL, 2. They then direct security to arrest me, now that he's cleared himself of all crimes by ignoring the directive.

The Warden ended up running in, flashbanging everyone, arresting me, and then shooting me to near death before I was saved by Aaron Hawkins, at this point, I ghosted because I was so done with the round its unbelieveable. The actions of Bokaza and Synthette (I think that was the Warden's key) have made me tick Head Mut off on all my command characters, and I will no longer be playing mutiny.

Basically, IMHO, Bokaza spent the entire time powergaming, from having my own security team spy on me without provocation, to ignoring the directive to keep her free from jail time.

[Guest]

Honestly, Xander, you did great during mutiny. You didn't powergame, you actually made wise choices and pretty much worked your way towards an effective coup.

Your character displayed disagreement on what should be done, it was obvious that you would attempt to disobay orders. When the officer came around for ID change, they mentioned you told her about your source. I recruited her and told her to spy on you. Later, the android CAESAR, played by Tytos, reported you and Samantha for talking about poisoning me. This is where the mutiny charges came from.

The red haired Elena is a morally bankrupt Elena, she would do anything to save her own skin, including manipulation. This was a very scumbag move even though ICly justified. It was obvious that I couldn't pull the orders through, so I basically gave up to save my character.

I never ordered anyone to kill you, they did that on their own volition.

I'll answer more questions once I'm not fucking depressed.

[Jamini]

If anything this just highlights that Mutiny just doesn't work as a game-mode, more than honestly being a failing on Bokaza's part. It's almost impossible for the head loyalist to get the current directives completed, as they are terrible. I don't see how you can blame Bokaza for giving up on an objective that is virtually impossible to complete. (Which, having been part of several mutiny rounds, it is precisely that. Almost impossible to complete the bluespace Pathogen objective to kill and burn the infected.)

[Johnny Mnemonic]

If anything this just highlights that Mutiny just doesn't work as a game-mode, more than honestly being a failing on Bokaza's part. It's almost impossible for the head loyalist to get the current directives completed, as they are terrible. I don't see how you can blame Bokaza for giving up on an objective that is virtually impossible to complete. (Which, having been part of several mutiny rounds, it is precisely that. Almost impossible to complete the bluespace Pathogen objective to kill and burn the infected.)

 

They need to remove the "the fax is wrongly coded" excuse.

This isn't mutiny, this is 2 hours of HoS and Captain bickering over the validity of the order and then seeing the HoS order security t arrest the captain who always do it.

It's less about morals clashing with orders nd more about that stupid fucking validity of the fax.

[Jamini]

They need to remove the "the fax is wrongly coded" excuse.

This isn't mutiny, this is 2 hours of HoS and Captain bickering over the validity of the order and then seeing the HoS order security t arrest the captain who always do it.

It's less about morals clashing with orders nd more about that stupid fucking validity of the fax.

 

Good luck removing that.

The only way you'll ever get a proper mutiny going is by having not-terrible (but certainly very hard or questionable) directives. The current ones just do not do any modicum of justice to the mode. Plus the rules in mutiny, as well as the setup restrictions, are stupidly complex. K.I.S.S. applies to gamemodes too. Complex stuff tends to be easy to subvert, break, or just be ignored.

[Guest]

Honestly, fact that my character has been executed once during bluespace pathogen says it works both ways. The objective cannot be achived, but it was never about the objective, the same way it's not the point of Rev to go around murdering heads of staff. Has the situation yesterday caused a massive rift in the crew? I think it did. The fact that everyone turned on Elena, even Seto, kind of testifies to it. Fuck, when she commited suicide, a security officer decided violate her corpse with laser fire, adding that 'she deserves it'. Other than this officer (who has no idea what he's talking about), everyone else basically chickened out and took the middle ground, which is why my 'I surrender' move worked.

In case you think the round was bad, that crew weren't engaged enough or that I should've continue pushing for the objective, then I really have no idea what this gamemode is all about and I've failed as an antag. Truth be told, it was hard as hell trying to push this shit against the crew, with no justifiable reason to actually do it, other than a 'maybe we will of all die if we don't do this', which no one took as a serious reason to consider doing it.

Maybe it is as Serveris said, that Mutiny is a popularity contest. But it's not about who's more popular, because if I said that people didn't like Elena, people would just start saying that they do. Make your own mind about that, as I cannot talk about my own's character supposed popularity without making myself feel like a narcissist. No, this is a test of how much a character's popularity holds up against orders that break suspension of disbelief, because, as I see it, so far, only people who didn't break immediately were people who's characters openly like mine, or the ones with whose players I have a good relationship.

I'll also take a moment to complain at the AIs during mutiny. When I was the Head Mutineer, the fact that I would get executed didn't mean jack shit to it, despite me giving valid reasoning for it. That time, the reason was that captain's orders were at the top. This time however, the AI decided to swap sides at will, despite me giving it proper reasoning and my order to follow it through. Well, which one is it?

With all that said, I have no grounds to complain, because, if I couldn't count on myself to push these retarded orders through, how could I expect others. Out of three times I have been a head during mutiny, two have resulted in at least one complaint involving me directly or indirectly. That could be a coincidence, but can also be incriminating under a certain light.

But yeah, I won't be on for a while, so there is really no reason to persue the complaint any longer. You can consider it self-exile, a form of self-punishment for supposedly fucking up the round, if you wish.

[Valkrae]

From what all parties has described it as, I'd say this was a fantastic Mutiny round. But, personal opinions aside, What exactly is this complaint about?

From what I can tell, it seems that Xander is upset that they unwillingly signed up for a Mutiny round as a head, only because the players wanted to play Mutiny, and that through the course of the round, the Objective was attempted to be followed, but Elena realized it could not be followed, and tried to turn everyone on Xander's character, in order to save their own skin.

Yes, the objective was ignored in the last bits of the round. But, let's take a look at a few other modes we have on the server, shall we?

Nuclear Emergency; Yes, while we still carry over the old name of the mode, we use freeform rp for the objective. We basically allow the OPs to do as they wish, as long as it causes some sort of enjoyment or excitement

This is the same for Secret, and Heist, and most modes with an antagonist, really. So, Why do we have to violently enforce Mutiny objectives as if they are life law?

From what I can see, Bokaza did attempt to follow the directives, but failed in that endeavor, and had their character attempt to save their own skin.

As someone who has played a Captain during Mutiny, and have played multiple heads during RP-Rev, It's in my own personal experience that you have to go outside the based box that is the objectives in order to create something fun and interesting for others. With the Bluespace disease, It can easily devolve into rounding people up into Medical and pew-pewing them until they're dead. The Civlian Sector would get almost no RP from this. However, If there is an ensuing gunfight between the Head of Security and the Captain outside the bridge, a Shaft Miner walking by could easily rush in to help either or, as it is in an area they can access.

What do I mean by all of this? I mean that I don't see any point to this complaint, really. It just seems to be as post-round emotions that don't really lead to anything of real tangibility. I don't see what Bokaza did wrong, other than that light powergaming with having Security spy on Xander.

[Doomberg]

As clarification: I was the AI that round, I betrayed both you and Xander simultaneously, hoping that cutting off the heads of both sides (so to speak) would prevent any actual violence from taking place. I requested the Research Director to take charge while you two were secured, since he didn't seem to have any agenda.

That being said, I'll let this sit and gather a few more opinions before dealing with it.

[Guest]

From what all parties has described it as, I'd say this was a fantastic Mutiny round. But, personal opinions aside, What exactly is this complaint about?

 

This complaint was supposed to be about Bokaza deciding to ignore the directive. In any other situation, this might have been fine, but the way it was setup, it prevented my side of the antagonist work, the Mutiny side, from doing anything. I had lost ALL grounds against the Captain, and any following I had literally hauled ass to the Captain's side as soon as she said she wouldn't follow the directive.

The move was, in my opinion as much as an OOC move to save their own skin as it was an IC move. Don't get me wrong, I love Bokaza.

But the whole ignoring the directive thing basically turns the round into what would happen in the wizard had no spells, came to the station, got arrested anyways and the round continued. The whole point of the gamemode would be null. You can't just removed the MUTINY from MUTINY. Do you get what I'm trying to say?

[Guest]

Which is the point, Doom. Everyone seems so hellbent on ignoring orders and making sure that everything goes peacefully. I'll just quote something Tool said in the AI laws thread, which I agree with:

 

Here's the thing the chain of command is so important and the AI following orders only serves to further this, if the Captain has a choice between the AI closing and bolting toxins while some idiot scientist set it ablaze and now is trying to get out but there's two innocent scientists in the hall that can't get out because there's a lockdown that they can't lift. Is it good protocol to condemn your staff to be burned alive? No but it's good captaining, the only way such feats of Captaining can be performed is if the AI follows orders. I know it sounds dictator-y but the AI is a tool, a highly complex one but a tool nonetheless. The Captains greatest Ally is the AI, and that's the way it should be it's not easy being king but when you've got an all seeing AI at your disposal it's a hell of a lot easier.

 

Let's say for a moment, that the Tool is wrong. What can we conclude? We can conclude that Captain does not actually have any goddamn power outside of being an enforcer of laws, because, they aren't allowed to make any decisions at all. They are the NT representative on the station, picked for their loyalty and a common sense. If there is anyone on the station who is qualified to convict people to death, it is them. The AI sure as hell isn't qualified to make that decision, thus it is suppose to follow commands.

My character did nothing except follow her best judgement and concluded that, even though possibly false, not going through cannot be risked. It is a contegion. What does the station AI do? Makes their own conclusion and takes action that can possibly effect the fates of entire humanity.

Another reason I gave up, was because the containment failed. The CMO and the HoS, have also decided to let everyone out of containment, possibly condeming everyone else on the station. From my character's perspective, the directive has failed and the crew have decided to kill themselves.What the was my character suppose to do in the end? Just accept being imprisoned by the mutineers for following their orders and best judgement?

Once again, Xander, I'm sorry I did that, but given the circumstances, it was the best thing my character could do and I would do it again. You might have overeacted by ghosting and not being able to enjoy the RP that followed.

[Doomberg]

Thing is, medical professionals are expected to know a whole bunch more about diseases than the captain, and they more or less confirmed that the outbreak wasn't a thing. Also, the AI can and will stop the captain if he/she tries to have a whole bunch of people executed based on a suspicious directive with a flimsy justification for said execution.

Regardless, this complaint isn't about me, so let's get back on track.

[Guest]

I strongly disagree, as someone said about a directive once 'this is crazy enough to possibly be true'. There are no better reasons to execute crew and the justifications were far from flimsy. If these things are rigged to be either unsupportable or make the head mutineer not give a fuck at all, why the hell should anyone follow them at all?

Like Xander, I'm done with mutiny. Next time I get either head loyalist or a head mutineer, I'll just sit tight and not follow or fight the directives. Either that, or remove mutiny alltogether, because I don't remember Rev ever sucking this much and, by my count, we haven't had one since this horrid gamemode was introduced.

[Erik Tiber]

Thing is, medical professionals are expected to know a whole bunch more about diseases than the captain, and they more or less confirmed that the outbreak wasn't a thing. Also, the AI can and will stop the captain if he/she tries to have a whole bunch of people executed based on a suspicious directive with a flimsy justification for said execution.

Regardless, this complaint isn't about me, so let's get back on track.

But the AI isn't the captain. Why is the AI allowed to make that judgement call? Why wouldn't that be up to the captain? If you didn't trust them to make the right decision, then they wouldn't be captain.

[mrimatool]

Hueh someone quoted me I'm FAMOUS.

[Doomberg]

Because, contrary to popular belief, the captain's word is not law. The laws are. If following the captain's orders would violate those laws, yes, the AI can certainly go against them.

And yes, I asked my fellow staffers for input before proceeding and they were not opposed.

With that aside, once more, this complaint isn't about my actions during that round. If you want to discuss them, PM me or make an appropriate complaint. Get back on track, please.

[PoZe]

About bluespace virus: This is /really/ bullshit form the beginning. Once I have benn playing at the mutinity as doctor with trained virology skills, we were just securing sick people, while trying to analyze that 'invisible' virus. So my character have prove to the everyone that there is no virus, even if 'our cheat equipment on /science/ space station could not detect it'. Because: Virus must give some kind of affect on infected people, but it doesn't made any symptom's, second thing is that captain has a list with infected(how it can be possible? Even if Sol Alliance is so high-tech, they cannot detect individually infected from range of Hole System) another interesting thing was in that order that Capitan has, there wasn't saying how virus could spread.

[Guest]

Then, again, Captain's authority is jack shit, because they can't overide anything, anywhere. The orders were from CentComm, the AI can question their validity, but don't call my reasoning flimsy. If the captain judgement says the orders are valid, the AI should follow through. Because there is such a fucking thing as a chain of command.

I think my decision was justfied ICly and OOCly. Like HoS, the Captain's implant does not obligate them to follow the directive. Their opinion can change, they can be swayed and give up. Likewise, you cannot OOCly expect me to slam my head into a wall trying to put it through. And whatever the admins might think, like Doom's AI (let me step out of bound one more time), I did the OOCly questionable thing to avoid bloodshed and to preserve themselves, because, if I didn't surrender, this is how it would've ended. Thin packed hallway, armed security standing mixed with civilians.

I also didn't make the decision suddenly, I made the decision after a long fruitless IC argument, all the long the AI was shouting at security for both of us to be detained. Yet, security didn't move to arrest. Not even the cyborg moved to arrest. Was it a dick move both ICly and OOCly? Yes it was. Did it break any rules? No. Because, as far as I'm aware, I'm free to chose my own modus operandi as the antagonist. If it's a backstabbing politican, then I can do it. I've always thought server policy was to support creative antaging.

On that note, let's move on to metagaming and powergaming accusations. I will state that at no point in the whole round did I metagame. When we recived the directive, I immediately called HoS to my office. He stated that he doesn't think the orders are valid. Next scene, we are having a security briefing. I tell the names of people who have to be quarantined. HoS tells the entire security force the directives are not valid, in front of me no less. Skipping later, the HoS tells me to promote an officer to a warden. While talking, I butter up the officer, trying to improve crew morale to make sure directives are pulled through. The officer spills the beans, without any real questioning, that the HoS attempted to convince them to turn on my character, mentioning their anonymous source as proof. I recruited them and promoted to Warden. It was sufficient reasoning to have a spy and was in no way metagame.

In that round, Xander chose their MO, which was being vocal about their opinions. In that same round, I promoted Samantha Mason to Senior Doctor (a variation on senior engineer and senior officer), so they weren't even a full head of staff. During the round, at no point did Samantha choose to state their actual opinion on the matter, nor did she say 'I won't execute anyone'. Her nor the HoS never attempted to warn me they weren't going to sit back and let them be executed. They went full mutiny mode, without proper reasoning other than 'The captain is blindly following orders'. At no point did I ever do anything that would actually warrant an arrest, despite whatever goddamn reasoning you gave me. Then, woe and behold, the CAESAR PMs me telling me that Sam and the HoS are planning to poison me with sleep toxin.

In the end, the entire fucking crew turned on my character, other than that one Warden who I made a loyalist and were suddenly OOCly obligated to follow through, which is exactly why I dispise the mutiny mechanics. I can't do jack shit without either what you call powergaming or metagaming, while the mutineers went full retard with their plans.

No, I was 100% justified with everything I did and given the chance, I would do it again.

[Valkrae]

From what all parties has described it as, I'd say this was a fantastic Mutiny round. But, personal opinions aside, What exactly is this complaint about?

 

This complaint was supposed to be about Bokaza deciding to ignore the directive. In any other situation, this might have been fine, but the way it was setup, it prevented my side of the antagonist work, the Mutiny side, from doing anything. I had lost ALL grounds against the Captain, and any following I had literally hauled ass to the Captain's side as soon as she said she wouldn't follow the directive.

The move was, in my opinion as much as an OOC move to save their own skin as it was an IC move. Don't get me wrong, I love Bokaza.

But the whole ignoring the directive thing basically turns the round into what would happen in the wizard had no spells, came to the station, got arrested anyways and the round continued. The whole point of the gamemode would be null. You can't just removed the MUTINY from MUTINY. Do you get what I'm trying to say?

 

Xander, when it comes down to it, the objectives aren't the main point of the round. It's the roleplay around the objectives that's the point. If the objective was the main point, Antagonists would still have objectives. You can't really base a complaint around a character attempting to preserve their own life, which is a base human instinct. I understand the directives are there for a reason, and I do understand that you have to play the mode. But, at a certain point, you have to learn when to draw the line and cut your losses. Bokaza knew where that line was.

I am in full support of Bokaza in this complaint, and I feel that Bokaza did the right thing with his character. He did in the beginning attempt to follow the directives, but as he slowly began to understand the gravity of his situation, and decided it'd be best to do what he did.

[Guest]

Actually, I didn't tell you to promote that Officer to Warden until after you had already promoted them.

[Guest]

-snip-

 

The point of 'Head Loyalist' is that they are completely loyal to NT, and will fulfill the directive no matter what, if they remove the directive, it becomes a normal freaking round, can you not see that? Also, I don't think administration/moderation staff should come out in favour of anyone in a complaint, you should merely be stating evidence for/against, or otherwise let the admins that handle complaints, handle them.

[Guest Menown]

There's nothing that says the Captain can't disregard the order, while the others work to complete it. That's the whole point of mutiny. It can be easily changed to suit better RP needs.

[Valkrae]

Xander, I am a player of this server as well as a Moderator. The moderator title only means that I have a bit more responsibilities, and that I make sure everything runs smoothly on the server. Aside from that, I'm no different than you, Bokaza, or any single player that has ever logged into our server.

The Head Loyalist is still just a person. They are not some unthinking corporate machine hellbent on following every single directive to the letter, with no free thought towards themselves.

[Jennalele]

Xander, I am a player of this server as well as a Moderator. The moderator title only means that I have a bit more responsibilities, and that I make sure everything runs smoothly on the server. Aside from that, I'm no different than you, Bokaza, or any single player that has ever logged into our server.

The Head Loyalist is still just a person. They are not some unthinking corporate machine hellbent on following every single directive to the letter, with no free thought towards themselves.

 

This. Following a read-through of the thread, I see no reason to punish Bokaza for their actions. Was what Elena did nice? No. Was it expected? No. Did it contribute to the round? Debatable, depending on whom you ask. But was it justifiable, and within reason of RP? Most definitely so.

Pending a short period for Xander and Bokaza to raise any final points or questions with this decision, the complaint will be locked and archived.

[Guest]

Xander, I am a player of this server as well as a Moderator. The moderator title only means that I have a bit more responsibilities, and that I make sure everything runs smoothly on the server. Aside from that, I'm no different than you, Bokaza, or any single player that has ever logged into our server.

The Head Loyalist is still just a person. They are not some unthinking corporate machine hellbent on following every single directive to the letter, with no free thought towards themselves.

 

This. Following a read-through of the thread, I see no reason to punish Bokaza for their actions. Was what Elena did nice? No. Was it expected? No. Did it contribute to the round? Debatable, depending on whom you ask. But was it justifiable, and within reason of RP? Most definitely so.

Pending a short period for Xander and Bokaza to raise any final points or questions with this decision, the complaint will be locked and archived.

 

Lock it. Bokaza and I spoke over BYOND Pager and I believe we said our peace. I'd just like to point out though, the entire point of the gamemode is the Head Loyalist completing the objective, refusing to do so, just makes it an extended round with a 'lethal' virus onboard that has no symptoms.