Let's Discuss The Community

[VoltageHero]

A/N: This is going to be jumbled up. I got a short free time during class, and decided to type this up. It will be edited to be more pleasing to the eyes later.

This is something I want to talk about. I am not going to call out a single person, to avoid shaming.

This is something that affects all of us, one way or another.

And it needs to stop.

What am I talking about, you may ask. I am talking about the hostility among to playerbase. There is a time where something is a joke, and there is a time when something is just unwarranted.

Please, do not discuss the difference between the two, as it should be pretty obvious. If your goal is to degrade (in a serious attempt) a player for their attitude, their roleplay, their role, or anything of the matter, this is not a good example of a community.

I may be a bit biased as I do it myself, but teasing is fine, I would believe. That said, there are boundaries and lines to this, as well. If a player asks you to stop, you should stop.

Teasing isn't the main issue I'm talking about. What I am talking about, is the fact that people have a good deal of issues with each other, and as stated before, for numerous reasons such as their roleplay or attitude.

People take the server too seriously, and take everything said ICly or OOCly as a direct insult to themselves, and decide to start arguments over these minor disputes. People don't take the server seriously enough, and chucklefuck twenty-four-seven, both ICly, and OOCly, leading to people getting annoyed with them. Both of these issues causes a sense of tension between the community.

One player has a sense of distrust to another, and will openly oppose their actions, no matter what they are, which keeps these players apart, and strengthens the bonds dislike and distrust. Another player might have something happen to them, which leads them to more anger boiling in the community.

Should this be what the c community looks like? A group of people who are actively arguing over issues of different severity? I don't think so.

The server's goal, should be the same as the player's. To make sure that SS13 is fun, for as many people as possible.

I don't think anybody will deny the fact that we've been having a good deal of arguments over OOC lately, and these are lead to an isolated community. Players are going to feel wary of interacting with each other, and be less likely to actually enjoy the server.

You will never make everybody happy, and you won't ever resolve every dispute. At the same time, neither of these will happen if nobody attempts to change themselves.

You do have your own opinion about a player, or a character. You also do know the things that shouldn't be said about somebody, should it be an IC or OOC person.

In an ideal situation, Character Complaints would not be a thing, but I know that will never happen. Instead, what I ask all of you to do is to do something we're told to do from a young age. Think before you speak. Starting an argument for no reason will lead to nothing, but getting somebody else angry.

Basically, as a community we need to be focusing more on our attitude to the players themselves, and working together to allow the community to seem more friendly. Right now, we're supporting the negative atmosphere the community has, both on the server, and on other branches of it, such as TS and the forums.

[Jamini]

Voltage, you are my hero for posting this.

I do apologize for my own heated arguments in OOC. I'll be the first to admit that I can be wrong when making an argument, and sometimes I get way too hot under the collar when it comes to how I view things. I'll also admit to being pigheaded and stubborn when I shouldn't be. It's something I'll probably deal with for the rest of my life.

I, personally, agree. We all need to work on making Aurora a nicer, more welcoming place for outsiders, visitors, and newbies. Even if and when we are considered the nicest place in this silly game we all play, we should try and improve ourselves and others rather than tear them down.

We are all here to play a game together, after all. Nothing more or less.

[Gollee]

I also often get heated; though recently I have (I hope) taken severe action to curb that.

[Valkrae]

As a Moderator, I try and notice when arguments start to get heated, and put a stop to it. As a player, I've actually stopped paying attention to the OOC channel at all because of the issues that have arisen in it. I only pay attention when I see certain words pop up, or someone mentions it in msay.

Even as a Mod, I feel as if my every action is being judged and debated by everyone on the staff team, and the playerbase. Nothing against the staff or the playerbase, it's just how I function as a person. But actually seeing it happen on OOC, that causes me to not want to even log in as a character anymore.

[Chaznoodles]

It's not even funny how many threads have been brought up like this, and how little has been done by both the staff to attempt to warn against it, and the players both involved and uninvolved to stop it from happening. It's a hugely negative thing and has recently pushed me away from the server, and I believe other may think the same way. More needs to be done against it, and I'm happy to start challenging people over their attitudes in OOC, IC and over the Teamspeak.

[mrimatool]

Literally made a thread like this the other day and the only person who responded was Skull. Have people realised that I'm not the only person who feels the server is unendingly hostile?

[Rusty Shackleford]

We need to start having sit-down talks between people with problems, rather than just filing it away to be dealt with another time. Or worse, to let the problem fester and grow.

[Skull132]

The issue is that there are folks here, folks branded as "veterans" and folks who can rally groups behind them. Oh, did I mention that they're also loud? Literally, they're the worst people to go after. And I've, personally, given up. I am willing to talk and offer insight on the subject, because I have it, but until people actually take an active role with this? I'm sorry. I'm too tired. And I imagine a large part of my team is as well.

So, point us at a target, and we'll manage it. But we need all of you guys's support. Not only in reporting people who misbehaving (forum reports are thing) but in also keeping yourself in check. Oh, and if it's a staff member you want to post a complaint about, go right ahead. The community is still very much in control of what we do. More so than a lot of you seem to imagine (I can write a long explanation for this, should anyone actually wish to see it).

I don't know. I may eventually just have enough and file a mountain full of player complaints.

[Guest]

As one of these loud veterans, I just want to say I'm tired. Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't feel as though I can positively influence people anymore.

I don't want to participate for much longer. Because as shown in a lot of player complaints so far, it's very clear I'm setting an absolutely awful example for the rest of you.

I want to shut the fuck up. I don't enjoy being a driving influence. The negative influence I have on others by far outweighs that of what little positive examples I've carried out for the community. And it feels awful, and I want to stop doing it.

I have taken my 'renown' in the community in the complete wrong direction and it looks like I've far passed the point of no return.

I've already resigned from the lore team, and I'm considering actually leaving the community altogether, requesting for a permaban, for the better of the community itself.

I might not be the problem, but I am a problem. And that's unacceptable by any community's standards.

[Tainavaa]

People take the server too seriously, and take everything said ICly or OOCly as a direct insult to themselves,

 

I want to emphasize this. People do take the server way too seriously, and let IC things affect OOC. Characters are not representative of the players. If something happens IC, it happens IC and not OOC. Go with it. It's supposed to be fun, good or bad. It doesn't mean the player hates you.

[Guest]

I've already resigned from the lore team, and I'm considering actually leaving the community altogether, requesting for a permaban, for the better of the community itself.

 

No, don't fucking do it. You don't exile yourself because some people don't like you, are you crazy? Just take a few day break from the forums and you'll be fine.

[Tainavaa]

I don't want to participate for much longer. Because as shown in a lot of player complaints so far, it's very clear I'm setting an absolutely awful example for the rest of you.

 

I didn't read this until Bokaza brought this up but if my incident report against Vira had any driving force, it shouldn't. It was an IC thing, not OOC.

[Blue]

Basically. The issue isn't so much us "veterans" (Heh, feels weird to call myself that) forcing new people out, so much as we chose to remain in the same hugging groups, leaving new players to find their own or resort to other means to find fun. Read; Baldie behavior.

But the issue that affects us all is the drama. We have too much of it. I left for about half a year because of it. People talking trash about other people behind their backs because "he/she's character is shit" or "They don't know what REAL HRP is" or some other bullshit reasons. Okay, maybe their reasons are legitimate sometimes, but they still put on a friendly neighbor face like nothing is wrong when something is definitely wrong.

Sorta unrelated, but I blame it half on our inability as players to overlook the faults in people, and half on the massive amounts of self-inserts we have. People base their main characters off themselves. Can't critique a character without the person taking it personally. Can't separate yourself from the character. And your characters live in a world designed for them to struggle to like each other. Honestly, if people stopped playing them then there'd be a tremendous decrease in this "bad" community behavior, in my opinion.

However, as voltage stated and Taina highlighted, it's people taking things too far or nowhere at all which ultimately holds us down.

What can we do about it? Not much, really. It's who we are. Unless we can change that, I don't know how we can fix this issue other than by posting a few empty "I'll do my part" comments.

[Tainavaa]

People base their main characters off themselves.

 

That's not entirely true, Tina is almost nothing like me. One of the few things we have in common is a taste for folk music. It just makes sense.

 

Everything else, and other related things.

 

There is a lot of drama. What I always found ironic, is that people made fun of Tina OOCly for gossiping and even looked down on her (and probably me as I know I've been talked about) for it yet a chunk of people, I imagine a lot of the same people, gossip and talk about others behind their backs and don't think twice. It's crazy. It's like I'm in highschool all over again.

I'll do my part. And by that, I mean I will continue to do what I've been doing; I'll say things when I'm interested, I'll be silent when I don't care, and I will remain detached until it affects me directly.

EDIT: And roleplay. Very important part here. Just roleplay.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

All this time and very little has changed. I'm beginning to play with OOC muted all the time, because the hostility from the community in it is creating a toxic environment.

Between that and the sheer fanatical frothing rage exploding in OOC after an event is concluded ("OOC has been globally enabled!" "this event was shit.") I'm finding it harder to play round to round.

Maybe we need to more strongly enforce the "Don't be a dick" rule. I'd be happy to see liberal OOC mutes being handed around. It's obvious the playerbase can't combat this by itself.

[Tainavaa]

I find myself keeping OOC disabled as well for the reasons you stated and a few others. I really only enable it periodically or during dead hour when everything's very quiet.

[Guest]

I'll just quote what I wrote in an incident report thread, it's tied to this, relevant and represents my opinion on all of this.

Incident Report - Winston Carton

... That said, the scale to which my complaint has escalated is a bit too much, by no small part because of my own contribution. I have almost purpously derailed the tread because every mutiny complaint is there for the same reasons and they have to be brought into light. For this, I'm thankful to Xander, because so far those issues have been largely ignored by the community.

Now, I understand that Xander might have felt victimized by my actions and, as us humans do, seek retribution for it. Some do it through grudging, some prefer complaints, some people just act like assholes. It's normal part of being a human being and it's this cycle of pain and retribution that keeps our society functioning, regardless of how stupid it is.

What the underlying issue is, as mentioned in the general forums thread, is that people self-insert so much, that when someone hurts their character, the same need for retribution is felt. To anyone outside the gaming communities, this would seem like a pointless waste of time. It's because it is. It's a game, we are here to enjoy it, not fight constantly like fucking children over ruined rounds and misunderstood jokes.

I do this as well, and it's just one of the many reasons I've had a 2 week ban put on myself, with hopes I can actually return to reality. Like someone said to me on Skype:

"To escape from an escapist reality, yeah. As funny as it sounds, it's completely understandable."

Take it easy friends, it's just a game.

[Skull132]

What can we do about it? Not much, really. It's who we are. Unless we can change that, I don't know how we can fix this issue other than by posting a few empty "I'll do my part" comments.

 

Oh come on, I'm supposed to be the defeatist voice here. I still cling to the ideal that if people actually want to fix their shit, they can. And only they can. If they don't fix their shit, I expect to see their name pop up in a complaint at some point. After which, we kind of just deal with them in another fashion. But that all hinges of the folks wanting to change.

Oh, and let me paint a pretty picture for all of us. These discussions are nice, they serve a purpose of elevating concerns and notes into public display. But the second half to that, of this equation, is folks managing themselves. You can talk all you want, but until you change, I don't know, you can't really expect everyone else to.

Beyond that, I'm just going to keep doing my thing of shutting up, watching over and trying to talk to people who need it.

[Frances]

Outsider's opinion? You guys seem to be taking this way too seriously.

I mean, you've got stuff like

requesting for a permaban, for the better of the community itself

lol

Taking a step back to look at the situation, I think most of you can realize you're a group of about 30-40 dudes, playing an internet game together. That's like one big classroom, at most. Should you be having weekly threads about the "climate of the community", about "targeting instigators" and "veterans" and idk what else?

You tell me. But it seems a bit over the top, and the reason why changing so much about the server is hard might be exactly because that approach is over the top.

Like, it's common sense. If you love to talk, learn to back it up with actions. Having all these debates is actually fun because your brain gives you literally the same reward as if you had done whatever thing you promise/say you should do, but that obviously does not compare to actually doing the thing.

And what is doing the thing? You're still a small community. Everybody knows each other, and new faces are pretty easy to spot. So go talk to them. Be welcoming. Act nice. And if you see someone being a douche, go tell them not to be a douche (yes, even if you're not a mod), hell, apologize publicly on their behalf for them being a douche. It gives a sense that people care about newcomers, and that there's order in this place.

Just, get it done. Don't make more threads. I find it ridiculous that staffmembers themselves come on to complain that staff isn't doing X or Y. Like, that's you. That's what you're there for. And of course, if there's a staffmember that doesn't do fuck all, kick 'em out. But otherwise you should be working your hardest to do the thing before you start complaining others don't, because in my experience, if you want something done, you will have to do it yourself.

As for people saying they should leave "because they're a bad influence for the community", just do it if that's your thing. By constantly lamenting on your bad influence while simultaneously refusing to address it, you're simply pushing back the issue.

[Skull132]

Eh, I'm not too worried, FFrances. We'll find targets, rack'em, stack'em and schwak'em. The fresh admins are actually way too aggressive for my whining to bother them. Just that, we will miss a few, and it'd be nice to have the community members point'em out.

[Erik Tiber]

I do think that it's important to remember that really, this is just a game, and we should probably just stop taking it so seriously, or talk about "sacrificing for the good of the community" or whatever, or betrayal of the community, or whatever. It's a hobby. It's just a hobby. It's something we do for fun. This in no way means that we shouldn't try to improve the game or act on complaints, because really, I'd much rather have my hobby be even more fun. It's just that, we probably shouldn't be investing so much into this, emotionally.

Let's just remind ourselves that this game is our hobby, not our job, and not some civic duty, and that we can all just be cool and not mind overmuch when someone does something like, say, criticize how the community might be run, or when someone might disagree with you on some aspect of the game. It's just a hobby. Hobbies are nice, and fun, and pretty awesome, let's just not take it so seriously that it stops being fun. And let's not take disagreements so seriously that we can't disagree or debate in peace.

I also think it might be a bit important to be open to outside criticism, and emphasizing someone's message far more than their tone. Whether or not they're debating in good faith matters way more than whether or not they use nice words while debating. I'm personally used to forum communities like, say, forums.sufficientvelocity.com, which, while they ban blatant flaming (Though this really has a rather high standard, even flat-out calling someone an asshole isn't enough to qualify), they are far, far more focused on the quality of someone's arguments, whether they provide citations when requested, whether they debate in good faith.

[Guest]

So, point us at a target, and we'll manage it.

 

That's not how this works. These people are your close friends, they've been here for a long time. Longer than me, longer than a lot of people who might find them problematic. You've allowed these people to bully everyone and get away with it, and as a result they're not afraid to do it because they know they can get away with it. If your personal friends and your staff were under any danger of being held responsible for their actions, would threads like these pop up all the time?

I poked the hornet's nest once already, It didn't work out for me.

Now that I have been made an example of, I think most people probably know criticizing people the staff likes (or God forbid, the staff themselves) will not go unpunished.

[Tainavaa]

I do think that it's important to remember that really, this is just a game.

 

Excellent point, which is why I've opted only to care enough to pitch in my experience and thoughts and move on.

 

That's not how this works. These people are your close friends, they've been here for a long time. Longer than me, longer than a lot of people who might find them problematic.

 

Quoting this for emphasis.

[Frances]

So, point us at a target, and we'll manage it.

 

That's not how this works.

Person A: "There's a problem."

Person B: "Tell me what it is, and I can try to fix it."

Person A: "It's not that simple."

Person B: "Well, uh, you could start by telling me about it?"

Person A: "No."

Person B: "..."

That's what you're doing. Why does nothing get done? Because people keep making vague complaint threads, for the sake of what can at this point be summed up at as "drama-whoring", and categorically refuse to namedrop or directly address any issues.

What exactly are you hoping to happen? How is anyone supposed to solve problems you won't even talk about?

[Chaznoodles]

Look chaps, if you don't want to call the people who do this sort of thing out on it in a public area due to whatever reason, PM a member of staff with it. We'll try and get the list together of who causes these problems and deal with them in a fashion that reflects how people feel.