Character/Player Complaint - Peppermint/Lgn. Valeria

[WickedCybs]

BYOND Key: WickedCybs
Game ID: cdn-dqYc
Player Byond Key/Character name: Peppermint/Lgn. Valeria 
Staff involved: Alberyk 
Reason for complaint: 

It was a merc round. TCFL deserters wanting to get phoron in exchange for not bombing the station. One thing led to another and they ended up flanking security in engineering. The leader had an issue with the aim intent, which led to my character getting shot by mistake. The other mercs joined in and all hell broke loose, which was understandable at that point. So, ended up getting hit by a combo of ballistics and lasers. This went on for a good while, I never had a gun out and I just stood there taking the shots before it finally processed they were going to kill me now. I used the laser rifle I had on my armour to return fire well after they shot me and were continuing to shoot me, and got out three or four before going down.

Lgn. Valeria then pulled my character away and ensured to execute them with some laser weapon, apparently in retaliation for a false surrender and getting "back up again". It's been said I dropped the gun for some reason and was downed, though I didn't drop the gun at all, it was on my armour.  I was also certain I did not go down in front of that person. They were all spaced at least three or four tiles away from me as well. I just stood still processing the confusion. The rifle was on my character's plate carrier. They did not really signal anything nor did they say get to down. Since they were also with the others still actively trying to kill me while I was there standing, doing nothing, my thought just turned to trying to do what I could before the grace period of pain ended. So I checked if I could hold the rifle, and I could. I wielded it and fired downwards from my character. It ended up striking them at least a few times. Went down fairly quick then and never got back up.

The justification for outright trying to remove me from the round seems very flimsy and either based on a lie or misconception. It is something that really would have been just as upsetting if the positions were reversed and it was security executing mercs that were fired on fired on first. I don't really expect anyone to rest and die in a situation like that. It's pretty poor behaviour all around.

EDIT: Just adding this in because I don't want to edit the main thing after the fact. It seems like I did attempt to draw the rifle after getting shot initially, it dropped due to the hand spasms you get from being shot, then I picked it up again, but at no point was I downed.
Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? 

Yes. It was being worked out, but the round delayed for far too long so it had to be cut short. The leader was already talked to regarding the start of the hostilities. I was likely dead either way, but I did not really want to let what happened next happen again to someone else.
Approximate Date/Time: August 5th, maybe 5:30pm MST.

Edited August 6, 2021 by WickedCybs
addition

[WickedCybs]

I was given a video by someone who also participated in that. I was the only non-human officer in this engagement. I had a link here, but posted it further down because I forgot you can add attachements.

It seems the sequence of events was, painshock dropped the gun yes. it seems obvious there was no real attempt to feign surrender here though, and they kept shooting me. I did not "Jump back up and open fire.", I remained standing. They also kept shooting even before that, so it's not as if they were surprised by the gun being picked back up. It can be seen they're still firing their rifles the entire time.

[Peppermint]

I've got nothing more to add than I didn't say in round. We'd escalated to the point of lethals anyway, so even if my below points didn't matter, killing Radic was fully justified to my mind and I'm not really sure what else I was supposed to do in this scenario.  Given a) Active fight and b) We made it very clear we were willing to start killing people if our demands weren't met. You said that sec was planning on refusing to fight, but how exactly were we supposed to know that when it's not communicated? For all we know, you're planning to kill us when we come up the elevator, you've also been told we will kill people at this point, and then are...surprised when we do? 

Either way, for my side:

 

•  We come in after being refused our deal with the intention of finding you guys, given I didn't actually want to put a hole in atmospherics an hour and twenty in. 
•  Aim intent thing happens, you get blasted, fight starts, ect. 
•  I assumed you dropped your weapon to surrender, though maybe it was just pain or something else. I don't know. Either way, I backed off. The fact you're calling me a lier is kind of weird, but you do you I suppose. And I'm not going to stop and type a bunch whilst getting shot at by the rest of security.
•  You also collapsed at this point, as seen in the screenshot, and I don't really understand why you claimed you didn't. I originally assumed it was just as the fight was hectic and you didn't see, but the way you've  worded this complaint as really quite malicious does  makes me wonder something else. Doubly so when even in said ticket and here in this complaint, you already were 99% certain to be dead afs is. Though continued to get up and start shooting anyway, after moving with someone had aim intent on you. 
• 
•  I backed off even tho, imo, I didn't really need to and just continuing to shoot would have been fine. Either way, the logs will show me fighting the rest of security instead who were off screen up in the little stairs section.
•  You got back up and shot me. I shot you back down, and finished you off. Given the other choices here are to either let you continue going in/out of pain crit whilst popping off shots, or just letting you get back to the rest of your team, I'm not really sure what the other play here was. If I'd done the same, I'd fully expect to get gunned down by security whilst in the middle of a 4 on 4 firefight. 
• Your character died in a hectic fight after the round escalated to lethals.  It gave people plenty of RP, and that's just part of playing sec. Either way, I'm not biting further unless who takes this mess has questions. 

 

I really don't have anything else to add. The only thing is that Alb mentioned he didn't understand how lasers came into it or something? I didn't really follow. Either way, it's laser + ballistic damage as I entirely forgot duelweild was a thing and had both in my hands.

[WickedCybs]

Didn't realize I could upload this.

[Peppermint]

You can even see in the clip that when you dropped your rifle, we stopped firing at you directly. If I was as oh so bloodthirsty and powergaming as suggested during the ticket, a full auto here would have ended it. Though one bullet does clip you from aiming at the guy in the doorway from a poor angle, it's not until you pick your gun up again that you get shot. But according to what you were saying previously, you neither dropped your weapon nor fell down at all, but instead were shot until you fell down once and then immediatly executed, and we can see neither thing happens here. So. This really rubs me the wrong way. 

 

I have nothing more to say on this until an admin chimes in.

[WickedCybs]

On 05/08/2021 at 19:22, Peppermint said:

I've got nothing more to add than I didn't say in round. We'd escalated to the point of lethals anyway, so even if my below points didn't matter, killing Radic was fully justified to my mind and I'm not really sure what else I was supposed to do in this scenario.  Given a) Active fight and b) We made it very clear we were willing to start killing people if our demands weren't met. You said that sec was planning on refusing to fight, but how exactly were we supposed to know that when it's not communicated? For all we know, you're planning to kill us when we come up the elevator, you've also been told we will kill people at this point, and then are...surprised when we do? 

I don't really blame you guys for ending up trying to get the drop on us due to command, but yes it was surprising. I thought the gimmick was great, and I expected things would continue going down the roleplay route. It was lame to not have any dialogue exchanged.

The main issue here to me is the execution.

On 05/08/2021 at 19:22, Peppermint said:

I assumed you dropped your weapon to surrender, though maybe it was just pain or something else. I don't know. Either way, I backed off. The fact you're calling me a lier is kind of weird, but you do you I suppose. And I'm not going to stop and type a bunch whilst getting shot at by the rest of security.

I really find it hard to believe that in the end. You "backing off" was backtracking while still shooting the rifle. I'm calling you a liar, because you outright said I fell down, stood back up and opened fire on you. Then you specifically ran up, dragged me back and ensured I'd die after that was done and over.

On 05/08/2021 at 19:22, Peppermint said:

 You also collapsed at this point, as seen in the screenshot, and I don't really understand why you claimed you didn't. I originally assumed it was just as the fight was hectic and you didn't see, but the way you've  worded this complaint as really quite malicious does  makes me wonder something else. Doubly so when even in said ticket and here in this complaint, you already were 99% certain to be dead afs is. Though continued to get up and start shooting anyway, after moving with someone had aim intent on you. 

The video shows I never collapsed when you said I did. I never "continued to get up and start shooting anyway". This is why I'm particularly irritated you would try to paint it as something like that. Even if someone is certain to be dead, that doesn't really justify an execution. I kind of expected more, there. Trying to guarantee something like that is very poor, and this isn't even the fist time I've seen it happen. 

The aim intent thing just surprised me like I said before, because I didn't really notice it. I was focused on the mercs piling in and took a step back.

On 05/08/2021 at 19:22, Peppermint said:

I backed off even tho, imo, I didn't really need to and just continuing to shoot would have been fine. Either way, the logs will show me fighting the rest of security instead who were off screen up in the little stairs section.

And we can see you continued shooting. The logs already show you focusing on me for those moments instead of the rest of security.

On 05/08/2021 at 19:22, Peppermint said:

 You got back up and shot me. I shot you back down, and finished you off. Given the other choices here are to either let you continue going in/out of pain crit whilst popping off shots, or just letting you get back to the rest of your team, I'm not really sure what the other play here was. If I'd done the same, I'd fully expect to get gunned down by security whilst in the middle of a 4 on 4 firefight. 

So the first part of this statement didn't happen, you just finished me off. I do find it hard to believe you'd think anyone is really getting back up from getting unloaded on from a full merc team like that. 

Security finishing off disabled people on the ground has never really been an okay thing unless the circumstances are extraordinary.

On 05/08/2021 at 19:22, Peppermint said:

Your character died in a hectic fight after the round escalated to lethals.  It gave people plenty of RP, and that's just part of playing sec. Either way, I'm not biting further unless who takes this mess has questions. 

I am fine with this. People treated the death pretty cool. Not happy with the execution though.

On 05/08/2021 at 19:26, Peppermint said:

You can even see in the clip that when you dropped your rifle, we stopped firing at you directly, but instead went from the officer in the hall. I have nothing more to say on this until an admin chimes in.

Addition: If I was as oh so bloodthirsty and powergaming as suggested during the ticket, a full auto here would have ended it. Though one bullet does clip you from aiming at the guy in the doorway from a poor angle, it's not until you pick your gun up again that you get shot. But according to what you were saying previously, you neither dropped your weapon nor fell down at all, but instead were shot until you fell down once and then immediatly executed, and we can see neither thing happens here. So. This really rubs me the wrong way. 

You can still see me getting shot in that so I'm not really sure what to say here. In fact, we can see you moving down and popping more shots off with your rifle purposefully. A lot of the fire was diverted, but I was still getting hit.

Late edit due to this quote being changed after my response was posted?: At least two confirmed hits could be seen by the blood effect on my character after the drop, not even checking the log. Shot from you, one from another. Calling it a poor angle is rather generous there, as it seems pretty clearcut it was just an intentional attack. I'm aware of how the angles work. From that position it would have struck a window or the vending machine if he was aiming at the other officer.

I acknowledged I did drop my gun after posting that video, which is seen in the main body of my post. I was in fact shot until I went down, then almost immediately executed, which we can see is about to happen by the end of the video. To me, it seems you just doubled down instead of acknowledging your mistakes. I would have been happy with an apology or something instead of needing to push it to a complaint.

Edited August 7, 2021 by WickedCybs
late edit in response to another?

[Omicega]

Hello, I played security in the round in question and I am visible in the clips above. I'm going to keep my contribution somewhat brief, since I largely agree with the summings-up given above. That said, I disagree fundamentally on a number of issues here:

• You can see in the clip that Cybs is being lit up by two weapons simultaneously right from the beginning. I don't really buy that this was an aim intent issue, since only one person admitted to an aim intent oopsie here, so at least one other person was full sending it from the moment they sprinted on-screen.
• The rifle drop thing is so obviously painshock that I cannot believe anyone with any experience in security (which Peppermint has in spades) would believe it was an intentional attempt at surrender, false or otherwise. Personally, I'd expect to see someone go prone or type something more so than just dropping their weapon.
• On almost the same frame as Cybs picks up the weapon again after being forced to drop it, he's being drilled with bullets and lasers again. It's either some pretty quick target-switching, or they were advancing towards him with intent to keep shooting someone on the ground anyway, once they made sure the rest of us were out of the picture.
• Executing downed combatants is something I don't think I've ever seen going unpunished outside of extremely niche scenarios on Aurora, and while I didn't see the execution in question I'm pretty confused as to why this case is any different, considering it very much seems to have happened.

On top of that, I just have a couple more things to say even in the brief time this complaint has been up. I find Peppermint's defensive and at times passive-aggressive attitude when putting her points forward here pretty uncalled for, even as someone only peripherally involved in this whole thing. I also find a lot of the justification for this to be skirting the main issue at hand of an execution right then and there at the scene. I don't think anyone was asking for a retelling of events here -- if you think it was justified, that's all you had to say, and in a far more neutral tone than you're putting your points across so far. It's like you're trying to provoke people into disagreeing with you, and I personally think the way in which you're defending your POV in this complaint should be taken into account.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm amazed this made it past ahelps during the round itself, because to me it seems pretty open and shut when you have antags deleting security and putting them straight into dchat when the other 99% of the time, medical is at least allowed to get a word in edgeways. If these kinds of executions are in fact allowed on security or the antag's part, then I'll certainly be keeping that in mind going forwards with my own gameplay. The rest of this round seemed from my POV to be your typical standard merc round bullshit, complete with aim intent bugging everything out into a firefight way quicker than anticipated, but since the only issue that's really being debated here is whether or not a merc was justified in executing a security officer, then all I can say is that I don't see how it's up for debate at all. I myself have been bwoinked and had to open a staff complaint for a far less egregious issue -- this is even worse than the thing I was initially punished for, but somehow when staff are involved on both sides instead of just one it has to go to the forums for further review.

[Alberyk]

1 hour ago, Omicega said:

this is even worse than the thing I was initially punished for, but somehow when staff are involved on both sides instead of just one it has to go to the forums for further review.

This went to the forums because the ahelp about this situation was made way too late into the round and I had no ways to investigate without checking logs that were not avaiable without waiting the round to end. I did not have the luxury of being there when it happened or access to a video to see what exactly happened. Stay in the topic, trying to imply that it this is a complaint because staff is involved this is being brough to the forums has nothing to do with this complaint.

[Alberyk]

From what you told me in pms:

Quote

[2021-08-06 00:20:47.076] cdn-dqYc ADMIN: PM: Peppermint96/()->Alberyk/(): Yeah, exacty! She got blasted a TON, and dropped her weapon from what I saw, and then collapsed. I let her be, she got up and started blasting again.

@Peppermint when did she got up and started blasting people again? I am now only seeing Radic dropping her gun due to the pain, picking it up and firing it again in the video.

[Alberyk]

Peppermint sent me this as their reply because the forum was giving an error due to a incorrect character:

Since there is new evidence I can probably solve this soon.

[Cnaym]

Played command during the round and was actively involved in removing the antags afterwards.

Just a few corners that I figured were worth noting:

Security had decided to betray the antags.

Security had set up a chokepoint and geared up with lethal weaponry.

The antags went around and had security back into a corner now.

From pretty much the first contact onwoards, the nuke threat was in the air.

Might just be me, but trying to betray the antags to arrest or murder them backfired hard and that resulted in an understandable shootout. I can understand how it sucks for the first to die but it looked like pretty much normal escelation to me, i.e. the nuke was on the board, lethal weapons in every hands. It was pretty much them or us for both sides and I can understand why the antags decided to  engage after the obvious betrayel.

[CampinKiller]

There wasn’t a betrayal by anybody. The Captain had been very clear that the Mercs couldn’t leave until the nuke was turned over and ordered security to handle it.

What I can say from that fight was that it was very obvious that at least one of them came in blasting at Radic - there was no “aim fuckup” there

[WickedCybs]

9 hours ago, Cnaym said:

snip

All of these notes are irrelevant and the context has already been provided. The whole start of the engagement was already handled in a different ticket that was resolved. I stated that in the main post itself, so I'm not sure why you typed out this response if you did read the posts on this thread or watched the video. With all that said, I don't appreciate any of your assumptions either. 

To further clarify what has already been said. I made this complaint due to the targeted execution which occurred. It happened after the end of the video was posted, if that confused you. 

Edited August 7, 2021 by WickedCybs
ack

[Peppermint]

Not sure why people are chiming in with the aim intent thing, given that was dealt with in round.

Either way, I've accepted fault for misremembering what occurred leading up to killing Radic. Got caught up in it all, I suppose. So it's more a question of whether or not antags are allowed to finish off sec in a frantic gunfight after 1:20 or so of steady escalation, during which they said multiple times they'd kill people.  

[Alberyk]

After taking in consideration the new video evidence I decided to place a note about this incident. However, I am considering that command clearly said over their channel that they were going to ambush the antags and that the aiming incident was already handled by myself.

This complaint is solved.