[NBT] Machinist Feedback

[Aticius]

Machinist is a little confused, conceptually. It's a job in Operations tasked with building things and operating lathes that is overseen by the Operations Manager.

The confusion starts in the details, Machinists work on station shipbound units. The AI and it's units are the responsibility of the RD, which was quite fine on Aurora, when the job was called Roboticist and was directly under the RD. This alone, causes issues with Machinist as the Operations Manager has nothing to do with one of the major parts of Machinist, but the problems don't end there.

Machinist also has a heavy reliance on Research and Development being staffed, though at time of writing, this is largely moot as they can get into the server room to build Tech Processors. The lack of a Destructive Analyzer is an issue, as we arrive at the single biggest problem with Machinist, and really, Robotics: Research Levels are not fun to get. Science rarely has a reason to give things out, and when they do, they are pressured by the items they make being "Prototypes" and "Experimental", thus the Research Levels they get are merely a formality that they really don't personally benefit from, and an artifact from the days of Exodus when the relationship between Robotics and Science was exclusively for balance reasons so you could robust the traitors more effectively.

What can be done to address these two major problems?

1. Give Machinist Science comms and make them, atleast partially, under the RD. Why?: Machinist will rely on Science for Research Levels, and their work on repairing and maintaining Shipbounds naturally fits them under the RD. They're also a lonely bunch. This doesn't need to replace their Operations channel, if that's needed for some big reason im unaware of, nor does it have to remove their position under the Operations Manager, if, again, that's needed for some reason.

2. Give Machinist a Destructive Analyzer. Why?: Machinist is the only one who benefits from Research Levels, and this gameplay loop really has nothing to do with the current mission of Horizon, that being Exploration. Maybe I'm jaded after playing SS13 for so long, but I've not seen someone who actually enjoys Research and Development. Machinist would be doing Research exclusively to make everything about their workplace better.

2B. Map in Tech Processors at Roundstart. Why?: It lets Scientists occasionally break down the odd antag item for funny new research levels, and keeps Machinist unable to get all the shiny toys without help from both Mining and Science, rather than just Mining (Who's job is quite a bit slower, now that there's shuttle nonsense.)

 

In short, Machinist seems to not do enough to distance itself from Robotics, and isn't independent enough to really justify being in a different department, or to even serve as support staff for expeditions-- or whatever their role really is aboard the Horizon as, ultimately, they're just Robotics with a Protolathe. Maybe I'm wrong, and don't see what the big picture is, but this feels like a change for the sake of it that doesn't fully commit.

 

There are other issues, but these are minor, non-foundational things with Machinist that are only relevant to the previous edition of the Horizon map. I'm putting them here since I have all this typed up.

- The starting amount of material is painfully low, for having to feed 5 machines (3 Mechfabs, 1 Circuit Imprinter, 1 Protolathe)

- An Autolathe is present in Research and Development, and it's fairly easy to make one with some jank, why don't they have one?

- They lack access to basically anywhere in Cargo, meaning they can't even give Cargo things without them showing up to get it.

- The current lab is really, awfully, isolated, additionally, it lacks a Cyborg Charger or Mech Charger. Those are on Deck 2, but they're awkward to get to.

- The lab also lacks directional access to allow for people that needed repairs to leave. It's slightly annoying.

- The current machine placement has a lot of running around, which sucks if you happen to be slow.

- There still isn't a call button on the lower half of the mech bay elevator. I cry every time.

 

Yell at me if I posted this in the wrong spot like a big doofus.

[Montyfatcat]

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Machinist is a cool concept, but it really feels like more of a downgrade. Everything is harder to get to, there's less duties (which is really bad because roboticists already get nothing to do some rounds) and there's a lot more isolation as they only really share a floor with operations, rather than a department. At least in the science area they got a middle corridor to share with others and meet through, but the only people who pass by their window in this new map are hangar techs.

[Sparky_hotdog]

TL;DR Machinists are in the right place, but Research Levels are dumb and should go.

I overall I agree with you here. Granted, I haven't actually played Machinist, but the entire situation seems to have people fairly confused.

However, as you pointed out here, the main issue isn't even from the confusion or having prosthetics taken from them as a responsibility. The issue stems from the fact they rely on research levels, the bane of science. On the Aurora you could sort of justify an R&D department; The station is supposed to be phoron focused and you do use that later on (If you have miners to get any). But as you've said, the Horizon isn't a research ship. It's an exploration ship.

Which I think is the real reason Machinist actually does belong in Operations, even if it's barely been mentioned (Or maybe I'm just blind). It's one thing to have research build an experimental mech for mining or ISD, but building a mech for an expedition down to some exoplanet seems perfect, and Ops are supposed to be all about prepping for expeditions (I may have this wrong, but it's how I see it). Now I have my issues with how Ops currently works towards that goal, but the idea that Machinists are there for that goal makes a lot of sense to me (Also, I kinda like the slight discrimination IPCs get, having to seek repairs on the grimy hangar deck rather than the main one).

But on that note, I think that is exactly why the entire concept of Research as an R&D department needs to go. Not only is R&D liked by nobody, it doesn't fit anymore. Research's goal shouldn't be creating prototypes, it should be analysing the stuff the Horizon has discovered on it's journey. Most of the jobs in science either already make sense for this (xenobio/bot/arch) or could be said to be making experimental gizmos to help with expeditions (guns/chems/circuits). Telescience feels similarly outdated to R&D, but as nobody relies on that job being done, I think it's fair to leave it. Research levels need to go imho.

[Aticius]

15 minutes ago, Sparky_hotdog said:

However, as you pointed out here, the main issue isn't even from the confusion or having prosthetics taken from them as a responsibility.

I literally didn't even know about this, and second, What? Why? They barely had to do that line of work, and it's right there in their lab? What? That's even more ridiculous.

[Sparky_hotdog]

Prosthetics (I believe, maybe I've been caught in the great Machinist confusion) are now the responsibility of medical. I don't know if making them is still the Machinist's job (That seems like a bit of a logistical nightmare if it is, as it's not longer a sprint across the central ring, but a journey to another deck entirely), but I'm almost 100% certain the surgery to attach the prosthetic is now exclusively the Surgeon's job.

[Aticius]

15 minutes ago, Sparky_hotdog said:

Prosthetics (I believe, maybe I've been caught in the great Machinist confusion) are now the responsibility of medical. I don't know if making them is still the Machinist's job (That seems like a bit of a logistical nightmare if it is, as it's not longer a sprint across the central ring, but a journey to another deck entirely), but I'm almost 100% certain the surgery to attach the prosthetic is now exclusively the Surgeon's job.

That seems like an awful change. Surgeons are already hilariously qualified (considering the amount of surgeries they need to know how to perform). Biomechanical Engineering seems an excess, and the one cool thing that Robotics got to do.

[Alberyk]

20 minutes ago, Sparky_hotdog said:

Prosthetics (I believe, maybe I've been caught in the great Machinist confusion) are now the responsibility of medical.

This is untrue. They can still do repair. They just can't mess with internal organs due to the lack of tools, but they can still do brain removal.

[Sparky_hotdog]

1 minute ago, Alberyk said:

This is untrue. They can still do repair. They just can't mess with internal organs due to the lack of tools, but they can still do brain removal.

This is mostly what I meant. Though I am curious if they can still do external prosthesis (i.e. giving someone a replacement arm) or if that's also up to medical.

(The rest of my comments are made assuming external prosthesis are medical's job. If they aren't ignore them.)
 

6 minutes ago, Aticius said:

That seems like an awful change. Surgeons are already hilariously qualified (considering the amount of surgeries they need to know how to perform). Biomechanical Engineering seems an excess, and the one cool thing that Robotics got to do.

I agree, but will keep my personal opinions on how Surgeon as a role works out of here, as they are largely irrelevant and very heated.

Also, given that there are a few ex-roboticist, now-mechanist characters out there who focused on the prosthetics side of things, it is a shame those players are forced to take that element of things out of the game and into other channels (Relay, the Forums, etc.).

[wowzewow]

It's still very experimental - like the brief stint with Janitor in Engineering.

Hopefully, I personally hope Machinist being back in science, because they were formerly the catch-all for anything mechanical or robotic or whatever science coughed up or medical can't handle.

The departmental connections between Robotics and Science are still very strong, and unless they're severed, I think they'll stay in this weird limbo state for a while.

[Montyfatcat]

15 hours ago, Alberyk said:

This is untrue. They can still do repair. They just can't mess with internal organs due to the lack of tools, but they can still do brain removal.

All tools that can be used to repair internal organs are included in the equipment for brain removals, so that's kinda a moot point.

15 hours ago, Sparky_hotdog said:

Also, given that there are a few ex-roboticist, now-mechanist characters out there who focused on the prosthetics side of things, it is a shame those players are forced to take that element of things out of the game and into other channels

This is hitting one of my characters especially hard since she was designed to be more focussed around prosthetics, and now that whole aspect has just been ripped out and given to medical because apparently robotics had too much to do between waiting for a cyborg to take stupid damage and the security IPC to charge an antag with a harm baton

[Aticius]

6 hours ago, Montyfatcat said:

 

because apparently robotics had too much to do between waiting for a cyborg to take stupid damage and the security IPC to charge an antag with a harm baton

I think it was more related to "The Job did too much", which is an odd reason to give. Maybe it was to streamline medical's job with That-One-Guy-With-Robotic-Everything? I can really only speculate. Even if Machinist is given the duties of "Build anything under the sun that comes out of a lathe", I'm still not sure they'd have enough to do. Giving mechanical organ repair seems fine, but the Machinist Workshop currently lacks anything that even counts as a sterile environment, so they probably shouldn't do it without being dragged to medical by the ear.

[Boggle08]

It would be perfect if the Machinist were to have access to their own destructive analyzer. The protolathe game is just white collar cargo: use the printer to fulfill requests made by other departments, and upgrade their machines; It's always been completely at odds with how science is presented on station, where technically the rest of the station exists to support the science team while they do their work. On a science station, Science does not serve, it makes demands. It's completely up the the scientists if they feel like doing or even know how to do RnD, and if they actually want to be helpful by upgrading machines or fulfilling requests.

If we give machinists an obligation to fulfil protolathe requests and a destructive analyzer, We'll see much more upgraded machines and protolathe items in the hands of crew members. The science team can focus more on doing whatever it is they do with the protolathe when they aren't taking requests. Supply is the perfect department to house the machinist, because it's in line with what supply, the protolathe, and roboticists are supposed to do: provide the station with equipment.

About medical, though: Roboticists are at the very bottom of the medical totem pole when it comes to synthetic organ repair or transplantation, and are usually just gofers for nanopaste and organs. Borgings are so rare, them having their own operating theater for it is logistically unnecessary. The Aurora roboticist OR serves mostly as just a back up for when medical inevitably becomes a hostage warzone. If we still have one on the new ship, I say get rid of it, or move it onto deck 3 behind a command locked door. There's no reason to take out the job knowledge if the system we have in place already regulates, and can be further reinforced by mapping.

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by Boggle08