Dreamix Posted May 14, 2022 Posted May 14, 2022 (edited) BYOND Key: Dreamixpl Staff BYOND Key: WickedCybs Game ID: chU-dBlY, ended around 01:18 UTC+0 Reason for complaint: I believe security play in that round was very bad, coming from tajara sec officer Azhara Shas'kui (I am not 100% sure it was this one - there were two tajaras in security that round, and I've been following the mercs, so if I have confused who this was then I am sorry). I do not like WickedCybs's decision, who was handling my ahelps, that security play there was fine and okay. My first ahelp said, "playing hero without considering the hostage". WickedCybs said, that's fine. My short recollection of the events that round, leading up to the situation: Spoiler I might've confused some things, or messed up the order, but this is mainly just to show that: - mercs weren't the awful kind, that just dock to horizon, and start shooting up the place and fight security - they weren't just hiding in the tunnels either, staying idle, before going guns blazing, and have roleplayed with the crew, albeit sparingly mercs silently dock with the station, all dressed up in "stealthy" gear, balaclavas, nightvision googles, sol marine fatigues, etc mercs talk to Darvan Omega, trying to get him to mercs' cause mercs head to the medbay, for whatever reason, but they're spotted and they head back out mercs go to the tunnels and 1st deck, hole up in some maint room, talking about the plan forward meanwhile security gears up, goes to the medbay, searches the place, they can't really find the mercs, they patrol the station, one sec officer is watching the cameras, etc after a while, mercs decide to split up into two groups: Centurion and Lost Cobra, and the other being Spooky and someone else; I have followed Centurion mercs go to engineering, they talk to another engineer Conservan Xullie, who also appears to be a martian, everything appears to be cool mercs go to cargo now mercs talk to miner Edyta Batniuk ...continued below do note that mercs haven't really been shown to be hostile to the crew so far - they destroyed a camera somewhere and broke some wall, but they haven't hurt anybody - ofc they were known to have weapons, but like come on The situation itself: Spoiler mercs are talking to miner Edyta Batniuk, on 2nd deck sec officer Kei Nakai comes up the stairs mercs hold Nakai up, Nakai complies, and doesn't immediately shout ":s BOARDERS CARGO" which is good of course but then: [Security] (Intercepted) Azhara Shas'kui says, "They have Nakai in carrrrrgo.", as they've been watching the cameras mercs order Nakai to get on the ground, and Nakai does just that mercs and Nakai go down to (1) ?? there's also Moshe Finkberg here, who is a hangar tech ?? sec arrives from 2nd deck also at (1) mercs go through the doors to (2) and then (3) there's a bit of talking there: mercs try to deescalate (kinda poorly), sec's just saying they will die and to stop trying to run mercs hack the door at (3) and go to (4) HERE THE THING HAPPENS Azhara runs into that very tight maintenance tunnel after the two mercs (who are carrying that hostage, Kei Nakai) ...with a flashbang flashbang detonates, and Azhara immediately runs for Kei Nakai, and drags Nakai out everyone starts shooting, and the round basically devolves into the standard "mercs vs sec" shootout PMs with WickedCybs, starting with my first ahelp: Spoiler PM to-Staff : Uh. One of the sec tajara kinda flashbang-rushed the mercs, who had a hostage. As in the taj entered tunnels after the mercs, who were backing out with the hostage, with a flashbang in hand. NOT SURE if they went back after leaving the flashbang there, but they definitely did not throw it. That's kinda, dumb and possibly suicidal, and imo kinda bad security - playing hero without considering the hostage. Not sure if that's ok. PM -> [Moderator PM] WickedCybs: I don't really see the problem with this. Having a hostage isn't an instant win condition for the mercs, they have to be capable of holding them and punishing attempts to attack via the hostage. PM to-Staff : Running up to the antags, who have a hostage, and guns, with a flashbang in hand, and then getting flashed yourself as well. How is that not unrealistic rambo/hero play. Realistically, the antags would kill the hostage with one bullet to the head, as soon as sec did something like that. But we have no instakill mechanics even (afaik). The sec was just lucky they they out-clicked the antag with their weapons or whatever, and all sec lived as well as the hostage. PM -> [Moderator PM] WickedCybs: Realistically the antags had no flash protection, security knew this. They did not want an officer to become an easy hostage with no resistance. PM -> [Moderator PM] WickedCybs: As I said, having a hostage is not a win condition. You can easily kill them if sec tries to attack. PM -> [Moderator PM] WickedCybs: There is a bonus damage modifier to anyone in a grab that does that job PM -> [Moderator PM] WickedCybs: So what I'm hearing from you is that the mercenaries weren't able to account for the response and lost their hostage accordingly PM <- to WickedCybs: Realistically, when flashbanged, you don't drop everything and just get dropped on the floor. I fail to see how this isn't dumb rambo/hero play, but whatever. You can close it. PM -> [Moderator PM] WickedCybs: Then I think you fail to realize how brutal a flashbang can be, especially to someone wearing night vision glasses. Next time, don't insult security players and peanut gallery in dchat either. logs that I have recorded as a ghost, from immediately before and during the situation: https://imgur.com/a/cMKkvgj I've been ghosting over Centurion for most of the round. I see no log for Azhara throwing the flashbang, so I believe, they literally ran into the mercs, with a flashbang in hand. "So what is the problem, exactly?" As in my first ahelp, yes, I believe the Azhara was playing hero/rambo, without considering the hostage. Something sec (or anyone) shouldn't do. "Having a hostage shouldn't be an instant win condition for the mercs." I'm not saying it should be. The IC and OOC job of security is to be a counter to antags, yes. But the OOC part is also to not immediately shut down the antag, and allow for roleplay and stuff to happen (ofc within the rules and character believability). Antags were not given really any time to react, or regroup, or talk, or make demands, or really anything. "The antags were out-robusted. As simple as that. They could've had flashbang protection, or positioned better, or etc." Expecting the antags to be super robust and think of anything security could throw at them, when sec can just run in with flashbang in hand. Like, come on. How do you even practice hostage-taking, merc group play, or antag-play in general? Playing security doesn't teach you that. Merc rounds don't happen every day, and they have only four slots for the mercs. Should people who want to play antag, go to other, low-RP servers, to practice? "Flashbang effectiveness." Realistically, a flashbang is brutal, yes... Except that, it is a flash-bang-stun-grenade, not an instant-paralysis-grenade. Not to mention that you absolutely can train yourself to mitigate most of the effects of a flashbang - and special police/military forces absolutely do that. And the in-game mercs probably should be trained in that as well, especially with the gimmick/background these mercs have chosen. IRL police also doesn't run up to the suspects/hostage-takers/etc with literally a flashbang in hand - it's always coordinated and planned action, if there's no other way to resolve the situation. Was there another way? We'll never know, because sec did not really try anything. There was no planning in here, no communication. Evidence/logs/etc: The logs above, I guess. Additional remarks: Security vs antag play has always been an issue, and it's always been a highly discussed topic. With most people agreeing that the issue is actually a thing that is an issue, but also that there's no clear way to fix that issue... beyond ahelping. Situations like this one, I believe this is one of the reasons as for why there's so few players with antag roles enabled. Why bother, if no matter what you do, there will always be a sec officer who can out-robust you (Also... Have I gotten a tiny bit salty from how the situation went? Yes, maybe. I thought the mercs were a bit goofy, in that they were running around the tunnels, playing Solid Snake, sneaking into departments to talk with the crew. I got a bit frustrated when all this was cut and stopped, cause of a single officer running in with a flashbang.) If rushing the antags with a flashbang is fine, then say so, here and publicly, and close this. Edited May 14, 2022 by Dreamix
Omicega Posted May 15, 2022 Posted May 15, 2022 Hi. I'm the player of the officer you're complaining about, Azhara Shas'kui. I asked an admin if I was allowed to post here (since I am 'involved' by being named here?) and apparently I can. I don't know why you personally are as upset about any of this as you are, but since you're twisting words, actions, and alleged intent a lot here I feel a little bit compelled to say my piece, regardless of what the ruling on the complaint against Cybs himself actually is. I'm gonna refer to your diagram here since you went to all the trouble of drawing it: Quote mercs hack the door at (3) and go to (4) The mercs are doing this while three members of security are standing there talking to them. It's pretty simple -- all three of us were trying to roleplay with the mercenaries and their hostage, but only one of them is bothering to say anything back at all while the other one tries desperately to hack the door open and sprint into maintenance. I'm not trying to blame them for this -- I'd try to run as well, probably, if I were in their position, but I don't think I'm reasonably expected to stand there and talk to a brick wall while the antags use game mechanics to put themselves in as favourable position as they can. This isn't a roleplay/gameplay medium like tabletop, where talking takes no time at all and doesn't take away from being able to act simultaneously. I'm not going to stand there and write a novel while the antags essentially ignore me and run off into maintenance where they'll have a free hostage and a big advantage -- especially when neither of them have any flash protection. I actually pulled and armed the flashbang before they even finished hacking the door, but they were able to crowbar it open and sprint partially into the tunnels before it finished cooking. I didn't flash myself, either -- that was another officer who wound up getting flashed due to a lack of protection. Quote ... the OOC part is also to not immediately shut down the antag, and allow for roleplay and stuff to happen (ofc within the rules and character believability). Antags were not given really any time to react, or regroup, or talk, or make demands, or really anything. This was at like 1:30 or 1:40 round time, give or take. I don't know how much time you want me to give an antag team so they can figure out what they want to do. They were essentially radio silent for the entire round until the HoS prompted them at length for a response, and their demand was essentially for us to allow them to hijack the ship. That's a textbook example of a demand you can't really negotiate with, and the HoS (understandably) didn't even try from then on. Quote I believe the Azhara was playing hero/rambo, without considering the hostage. Funnily enough, the only reason I threw the flashbang at all was because they had a hostage. That's our one chance to get him back before they disappear into maintenance for the foreseeable future. It's not my fault they didn't have him held up with an actual weapon (one had a tesla glove, the other was too busy holding hacking tools), it's not my fault they didn't bring flash protection, and it's definitely not my fault that the mercs chose to escalate things the way they did. You're really quick and eager to frame this whole incident as if the mercenaries got wiped out at first contact by a bloodthirsty security officer uninterested in roleplay at all -- instead, this is about 1:30 or 1:40 into a two-hour round after the mercs have had ample time to do their thing. I don't appreciate your passive-aggression or your off-topic complaining about how flashbangs mechanically work; if you want to change them, it's pretty easy to go and try to PR a change that would make them less effective.
Ramke Posted May 15, 2022 Posted May 15, 2022 Hi, I was the other officer that immediately followed up after Azhara left with the hostage. 10 hours ago, Dreamix said: everyone starts shooting, and the round basically devolves into the standard "mercs vs sec" shootout I followed in after Azhara, saw two of you lying down, and for the sake of fair play closed the airlock on you so that both of you could escape unscathed, only losing the hostage. The Vaurca officer was blinded and stunned for as long as you, had time to argue with Azhara, and I was in the way, so you could have made a break for it at any point. It was only later that the Vaurca officer ran in and started shooting, and I went in to follow-up and provide backup after hearing shots. One of you has managed to escape, while the other one decided to stay and fight. I am not sure whether there were any factors that prevented the other mercenary from leaving, but I wanted to let you know that we gave you a window to leave, and one took that opportunity.
Faris Posted May 15, 2022 Posted May 15, 2022 I'll handle this. I'll wait for @WickedCybs to make a post before passing any judgements. While no one has broken this rule yet, I'll post it here as a reminder. Quote Only post if involved. If you are not a moderator or administrator and were not involved in the incident(s) referred to, you may not post or reply to a staff complaint regarding said incident(s). It is permissible, however, to provide testimony regarding a staff member's behavior backed by proof, in the form of screenshots or logs, or as a witness of some form that can (respectfully) verify/refute any claims made. Unsure if you can or cannot post? Send me a message on the forums or discord.
WickedCybs Posted May 15, 2022 Posted May 15, 2022 (edited) I couldn't blame someone for being concerned and ahelping if they see something that might be an issue, even if they don't have the full picture. However, It's clear from the overall situation itself you were more focused on backseating security and making fun of players who would never see what you were saying in dead chat. Please don't try and imply to me this is about anything constructive when statements like "security is horny for valids" gets thrown around in dchat, or when you cannot even mask the overall rude and aggressive tone in this complaint itself. The posts by a few of the officer players involved in the round itself already cover most of what my general response would have been when it comes to your recollection of the round and the situation you ahelped, so I will focus on the rest. 20 hours ago, Dreamix said: "So what is the problem, exactly?" As in my first ahelp, yes, I believe the Azhara was playing hero/rambo, without considering the hostage. Something sec (or anyone) shouldn't do. It's not really playing "rambo" when you have adequate support behind you, there's been enough buildup (you yourself say in the chat logs it's been nearly two hours of the round at that point) and things are fairly even. So no. This isn't a situation where the officer randomly ran at them wordlessly. There was dialogue. They tried to get away. Security reacted accordingly, as they are empowered to do. 20 hours ago, Dreamix said: "Having a hostage shouldn't be an instant win condition for the mercs." I'm not saying it should be. The IC and OOC job of security is to be a counter to antags, yes. But the OOC part is also to not immediately shut down the antag, and allow for roleplay and stuff to happen (ofc within the rules and character believability). Antags were not given really any time to react, or regroup, or talk, or make demands, or really anything. To reiterate. There was quite a bit of time before shots were even fired where people were just talking. It seems like security let things go on for a while. The mercenaries attempted to improve their position by leaving with their recently acquired hostage. Security is under no obligation to let that happen and sensing an opportunity, moved to prevent it. That's part of the roleplay. I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding here, where security doing anything about an antag at all is seen as spoiling the fun. Do you think the only outcome of taking a hostage should be that the crew always gives in? 20 hours ago, Dreamix said: "The antags were out-robusted. As simple as that. They could've had flashbang protection, or positioned better, or etc." Expecting the antags to be super robust and think of anything security could throw at them, when sec can just run in with flashbang in hand. Like, come on. How do you even practice hostage-taking, merc group play, or antag-play in general? Playing security doesn't teach you that. Merc rounds don't happen every day, and they have only four slots for the mercs. Should people who want to play antag, go to other, low-RP servers, to practice? You say "when sec can just run in with a flashbang in hand" as if that's even a foolproof strategy. I'm hardly expecting antags to be "super robust" by saying they should account for certain means of stopping them. The mercenary base has a lot of flash protection available and they spawn with sunglasses that totally negate the stun of a flashbang. The mechanics to circumvent it are there and playing security or even just watching a round could teach you that. So if not having flash protection was the only reason they were defeated, that's on them, and now they know for next time. If I followed your line of thought I might as well rule out things like antags depressurizing rooms to slow down or kill security because who could be robust enough to expect venting on the ship somewhere in space? It's not like there's emergency lockers with softsuits, oxygen bubbles, oxy tanks or masks available almost everywhere so you can attempt to mitigate it. That aside you can only really practice Aurora antags on Aurora itself, as compared to the only other active baycode server we're pretty different in how we implement things. You're more than welcome to tell me about your easy greentexts on TG sometime if that's somehow relevant but I have a feeling it's not quite the same or transferable. 20 hours ago, Dreamix said: "Flashbang effectiveness." Realistically, a flashbang is brutal, yes... Except that, it is a flash-bang-stun-grenade, not an instant-paralysis-grenade. Not to mention that you absolutely can train yourself to mitigate most of the effects of a flashbang - and special police/military forces absolutely do that. And the in-game mercs probably should be trained in that as well, especially with the gimmick/background these mercs have chosen. IRL police also doesn't run up to the suspects/hostage-takers/etc with literally a flashbang in hand - it's always coordinated and planned action, if there's no other way to resolve the situation. Was there another way? We'll never know, because sec did not really try anything. There was no planning in here, no communication. Your misunderstanding of flashbangs as they apply to people or their use by special forces and police departments in real life is not relevant to the game either way. We have the means provided on spawn to mercenaries that circumvent any effects of a flashbang altogether. You shouldn't need to rationalize anything further as allowing that effectively opens up everyone to shove in their own interpretations on who can do what and it becomes completely confusing for any new player if we have these unwritten rules. So if you have a sincere problem with this, advocate for mercs getting some roundstart bonus to their combat abilities so everyone is on the same page and work about your issues with flashbangs constructively. Maybe try gunning for flashbangs doing burn damage to the wielder if they explode in-hand too. I don't think the officer just held the flashbang and let it go off though. Now, was there another way to resolve the situation? Again, sec tried most of what you proposed they should do. If this was the only possible outcome it was an acceptable one either way. The game isn't about winning or losing. 20 hours ago, Dreamix said: Additional remarks: Security vs antag play has always been an issue, and it's always been a highly discussed topic. With most people agreeing that the issue is actually a thing that is an issue, but also that there's no clear way to fix that issue... beyond ahelping. It's the perennial topic. But of course, it goes both ways. The dynamic between the crew and antags will always be a centerpiece to the server. However, you can do more than ahelp about it. Contribute. Tell people about your ideas. Post about it. Do you think this is always going to be inherently a player issue, or that mechanics and other solutions can be provided? I've had issues with antag survivability compared to security, who has the entire medical bay at their disposal. So I went ahead and gave antagonists a buyable fully loaded medical belt and mercenaries free medical supplies on their ship. Afterward I noticed some players being able to use these additional tools to great effect when they faced off against security. Give your fellow community members a chance rather than assuming the absolute worst. 20 hours ago, Dreamix said: Situations like this one, I believe this is one of the reasons as for why there's so few players with antag roles enabled. Why bother, if no matter what you do, there will always be a sec officer who can out-robust you I sincerely doubt this considering antag players and security generally have significant overlap, especially when it comes to offstation antags. It's not really a matter of being robusted. Just... engaging with the mechanics? You get sunglasses for a reason. There's masks everywhere that have multiple purposes but can also filter out tear gas without being on internals for the wily antag. Heavy merc armour shrugs off the entire sec armoury except for the two las rifles. If you're given all the tools to succeed and complain when you don't use them, what can even be said? But it wasn't even you in this situation to begin with. You were the dchat spectator making fun of security being "teased" and "ready to valid" after a long round which had to end at some point. 20 hours ago, Dreamix said: (Also... Have I gotten a tiny bit salty from how the situation went? Yes, maybe. I thought the mercs were a bit goofy, in that they were running around the tunnels, playing Solid Snake, sneaking into departments to talk with the crew. I got a bit frustrated when all this was cut and stopped, cause of a single officer running in with a flashbang.) No, not maybe. You went above and beyond "a tiny bit salty". You should be glad nobody in-round could see that absolutely shameful behavior you put on display. Do not ever think it's appropriate to use dchat as you did. Do not even think this post paints you as some reasonable person only concerned by the actions of sec. You've made it clear by your title and the post contents you're quite indignant and hostile about people you've never even met or talked to. 20 hours ago, Dreamix said: If rushing the antags with a flashbang is fine, then say so, here and publicly, and close this. I don't think someone who actually cares about the community or our roleplay standards would end things with this. You won't set a precedent or get the attention you're looking for. Edited May 15, 2022 by WickedCybs little addition
Dreamix Posted May 15, 2022 Author Posted May 15, 2022 After rethinking and rereading all this after a night or two of sleep, I do see I did a dumb thing and got upset for all the wrong reasons, or even no reasons at all. I would like to apologize to everyone involved, for having to waste time reading my post, checking the logs, writing replies, and for my accusations as well. Please close this, I retract this complaint.
Garnascus Posted May 15, 2022 Posted May 15, 2022 This complaint is closed at request of OP's previous post. Good to see it was sorted out.
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