[Resolved] Staff complaint Cybs

[LordPwner]

BYOND Key: Lordpwner Birdie#3347
Staff BYOND Key: Cybs Cyberspy#8403
Game ID: Discord
Reason for complaint:

Myself and Deki were given bot strikes on Discord over, well, the quotes don't match what we were told. I am contesting the strikes.

So the last time I got into a little spat over the discord server, had a pretty nice conversation with Cybs about talking to staff- bringing it to their attention. So I tried my best to do just that. Screenshot 1 Staff were tagged got hit with 'it'll be reviewed line'. Thought it was a little BS, through context the comments in question, and before, and always of the behavior of Nalika is almost always over the line (let the shipping manifest speak for itself.) But generally most people let it swim over the line because it's funny or whatever??? But today some characters were not having it. 

 

Now I did message Mel over this same issue, trying to draw her attention to it what was going on. But I didn't do the best job explaining myself and was just generally trying to ask the exhausted aussie questions. Screenshot 2. But Mel said 'I can't think rn' so I didn't really want to push it further, and figured that hey, OOCly this will get handled whenever, but ICly we still got some dust to settle. So then Marcus and Svet talked about how the Commants directed at Syc's character Ravena were HARASSMENT note how this word has NO LEADING statement. 

Screenshot three is where we start the 'downward spiral' ICly of calling our bad behavior, and honorable Dominian and a Pluto Woman against- well not the world, just a memer on the relay. Whats kinda funny on timing is 4 and 5, ICly I get told hope you get muted. A minute later I am Suspended from the relay. Cybs tells us they'll be a bit and so we wait- and wait.... and wait. 

1hr and 20 minutes later (instead of handing it off to another staff member) I finally get in touch with Cybs. Screenshot 6 and the beautiful screenshot 7. While A LOT of what Keala says can DEFINETLY be seen as sexual harassment due to it's very nature being about sexual stuff. Now I'm not going to post every little we thought over the character's fit under the umbrella of 'harassment' because I will be here all month long. 7 is the one that details his comment about Nystrom. His comment about Raena was a little off, and the context around it made it seem more than just 'banter'.

 This is the context that made it seem more than just friend that is girl, when writing girl friend/girlfriend whatever the note. Telling someone, who cares about gender role, that they ARE interested is still big yikes, slighter smaller in a better context but still. And generally he blast unathi, men, women, whatever.

Screenshot 8 is second time Nalika accused Marcus of ACTUAL sexual harassment. (Perving on people, which he doesn't do, is actual sexual harassment.)

#9 is the first time Nalika did it and by Cybs' own definition of 'being within the last hour' it should have been relevant, but wasn't. Whats funny is, the REST of the people there also took it as just Harassment. Note the #10. Cybs is the one who jumped into sexual harassment, because it was implied, later saying ANY character ACUSING ANY OTHER CHARACTER OF SEXUALITY HARASSEMENT WILL BE SUSPENDED ON THE SPOT. Nalika then proceeds to ACTUALLY accuse Marcus of sexual harassment. I was then accused of being 'petty' and 'only waiting till I was suspended' which we know isn't true because I did try to contact Mel, as shown. He then straight up lied to me and said that Deki used the term sexual harassment (go figure they didn't). #11

 

#12 - #14 are just important to bring our whole conversation to light. I'm not one to play the hesaid-shesaid bullshit. I'll just quote.

"It's not recent if it was more than an hour ago."

"It wouldn't have changed anything considering the ravna/marcus/svet stuff was all that was recently up until then." (actively IGNORING the context that lead up to the situation at hand)

"If I can talk to the person that's supposedly being harassed and they tell me what is essentially "No, I clearly understood he wasn't" then yes." - I am happy that this didn't bother Syc, they weren't the ONLY person who was hit with comments like this and I ended up being one of them too. And of course you go "well- if it was so bad, why wouldn't they just say something?" #15-#16 two quotes I got sent. (I'll write them out as the player asked me not to include them)

 

#16 shows the closing remarks between us where I point out someone ACTUALLY accusing another character of sexual harassment this is likewise ignored as I believe they turned attention to Deki, but never responded to it and flat out ignored it in that upsettingly common 'I'm right, you're wrong, L' mentally

 

#17 Between Cybs and Deki - who they refer to as Dekster, where there was some ATTEMPT to justify Nalika's behavior because 'we called them a freak' no Chief, we call them a harasser- The character, not the player, no one can come in here with a straight face and EVER claim that Nalika DOES NOT harass other characters. If they do, they are ignorant or lying. Which if we note a re-examination of #18 (focused #11) Cybs claims that Deki did in fact use SEXUAL harassment. Re-examining the interaction, they did not. (You'll also note from our warnings, they didn't use that language either even after trying to claim to both of us that we did. Literally just them.)

See #20 to support claim of #18 - #19 and above.

Now I am going to go into an old issue a bit to show a stark contrast in how Cybs is acting with THIS case verses another . See #21 and #22

In this, it started out with Cybs calling me ingenuine over the issue with White Rabbit (which is fair been solved), but then later realizing after more CONTEXT and SCREENSHOTS and CONVERSATION that it was just bad timing and upset feelings. But in this case they wanted none, refer above. It's like the building actions did NOT matter to Cybs. Going as far as to call me impolite for trying to do so. Like, why are we moving the goal post? Whats going on here? Either we COME TO YOU when shit happens, or we don't? It just seems we can't get it right 😕 

On top of that #23 is the punishments, called this a conversation which is the only funny part of this interaction.

Even Cybs agrees in the end, by his own wording we did not claim anyone was sexually harassing anyone. It was just a matter of fact the people he was harass at the time were women ICly. Would it have been a smaller issue if it was men? Or is it because of Goolies being friends with Cybs that we got hit hard but they got off scoot free even after doing something that was warned to get you suspended, not once, but twice. Thanks for reading this long ass thing, I'd like for the closing, if found in our favor that the strikes be removed. Really pissed off about basically being threatened to be banned because my Character is tired of being harassed himself, both in the relay and work place constantly.

 

Evidence/logs/etc:

Spoiler

#1

#2

#3

#4

#5

#6

#7

#8

#9

#10

#11

#12

#13

#14

#15 PlayerA: "You got baited by Goolies" 
"You're on the admin shit list now"

#16 PlayerA: "Cybns and Goolies are friends"
"I'm a little concerned about bias."

#17

#18

#19

#20

#21

#22

#23

 

Additional remarks:

had to removed the double posted photos, yiked

Should be considered as well. I just don't feel rested enough to go back and change the arguement/format

 

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by ReadThisNamePlz
removing double posted photos and etc. It is 4am I've edited it twice and fixed numbers, end me.

[DekserBecauseILostMyAccoun]

Hi, it's me, Dekser (Deki). The supposed instigator of this. I wont add much (Because Birdie has already done a good job summarizing everything) but I will share the immediate interaction I had with Cybes, since I felt it went poorly.

 

It started with me sending about 7 images displaying Keala being overtly sexual. My character, Svetlana reacted by calling him out, specifically saying, that he *harasses women*

The reason I was in trouble, according to Cyb is because Svetlana "implied" sexual harassment, which to my perspective, nobody but Cyb interpreted as such. Here's the beginning of our conversation in order:

1: After sending the 7 images of Kealas behavior

Spoiler

 

2: Cyberspys first response

Spoiler

 

3: Here I explain that Sveta SPECIFICALLY said harassment, and not sexual harassment, as well as supply an image of someone remarking how Keala does that to everyone, which shows that they didn't interpret Sveta accusing him of sexual harassment (I have also spoken to several people, who all were surprised when hearing Cybs thought she meant sexual harassment, which I can also supply proof of if requested)

Spoiler

 

4: Cyberspy disagrees and says the context matters and that's why I'm in trouble. However when I referenced the 7 images of Keala's behavior, and tried to say that Sveta had this previous knowledge of him, which is why she came out saying this, she was sick of hearing the things he has to say. Cybs said we can only focus on the context of the current situation (which includes 1 occasion of Keala STILL harassing a woman, which is the "girl friend" scenario.) To me this makes zero sense, it means Sveta cannot use her prior knowledge of this character to build an opinion of him.

Spoiler

 

5: "Light-hearted" Cybs says because Keala didn't mean it seriously, that makes his comments okay, since they're only return fire at my accusations 

 

Spoiler

 

6: Here I explain again, for the THIRD time that Sveta never said "sexual harassment" and even Cybs seems to agree, since he doesn't bring it up anymore.

Spoiler

 

To summarize:

The main issue that Cyberspy brought up to me was that Svetlana and Marcus were "Turning the topic toward the harassment of women" which is not what happened either. Sveta said, one time, "Not only that but he harasses the women on the relay" (which is true) in reply to Marcus complaining about the unfairness of the SCC Relay Moderators.

Cyberspy stated that accusing someone of something as serious as sexual harassment is a big problem, however, Sveta NEVER ever mentioned or even implied sexual harassment, as well as Keala proceeded to accuse someone of sexual harassment not minutes later.

So to check the list
>Sveta did not change the entire discussion toward harassment of women
>Sveta did not accuse anyone of sexual harassment
>Sveta only used her context of her opinion of Keala from previous conversations

I fail to see any rules broken, and I fail to see anything Sveta did wrong which Cybs claimed she did wrong.

These are the seven images of Kealas earlier behavior which was sent to Cybs in order to showcase why Sveta felt negatively of Keala, nothing about me and goolies:
 

Spoiler

As a final note: I'd actually like to apologize to Cyberspy, I became extremely frustrated explaining the same case over and over and said some rude things I shouldn't have, I'll be a lot more mindful of my wording in future.

Edited February 5, 2023 by DekserBecauseILostMyAccoun
Added spoilers to images so its less painful to scroll through the post

[WickedCybs]

This post is pretty difficult to parse. I'd recommend you use spoilers and put the pictures you're referring to underneath the points you're making.

That out of the way. These are the events from my perspective and I've provided some links on the text you can click on to view images.

1. I look into the Relay.
2. Dekser is potentially OOC in ICing and you are joining them in this.
3. I'm pretty busy and I don't like the way the conversation is going considering you two took it from kind of charged to explosive what with the harassment of women comments among other things.
4. I suspend you two from the relay so it won't get worse and to get me time to look into it later so I can properly talk to people.
5. You snark at me over how long it's taking and don't really have any self awareness of how rude you are. Mel reminds you that I said I'm busy. 
6. Pre-emptively, Dekser sends me two weeks of logs of Nalikas allegedly problematic behaviour. Once I actually got to talking to you two, LordPwner also started sending me the same images. Why this was prepared to be sent now rather than far earlier or why you two thought it would change anything. I'm not too sure. The reason why I suspended you was clear enough. That conversation. If you wanted me to comb through the out of context logs I would have done so if it was sent beforehand, not as an excuse.
7. DM conversations happened. I won't cherry-pick out anything else within them as like Dekser said. Things got frustrating and I understand that. We do not need a tit-for-tat exchange.

While I repeatedly made it clear your suspensions came from the environment you two were creating. It became clearer this just isn't the "IC issue" it was being claimed to be either. You say so yourself in the complaint that apparently Nalika's behaviour fits the bill and could have been acted on earlier... but you didn't do anything, the person who did not want to be named didn't do anything, Dekser did not do anything. Nobody was reached out to and you didn't even attempt to talk to the player that you two and I assume more people at this point have been piling on the logs about. I don't even think you've talked to many of the people that supposedly take issue with this character either really. That's just disappointing and I don't see how you can say you even tried to follow my advice about pre-emptively going to staff.

It's ridiculous to hinge a lot of what you're saying on coincidental stuff that feeds into some possible idea that I'm favoring Goolies's character because we're friends. If I was afraid to do that, I wouldn't stay on staff. It's also ridiculous to act as if I for some reason am out to get you, a person I don't know or really care about. The IC strike that got you bothered was conducted because Bridge Crew are subservient to Command and it's just incredibly unprofessional to complain about the CCIA sending them to training due to that evil Fisanduhian Commander (you managed to bring this up again in the Nalika conversation as well.) I also don't know how you can even say I'm threatening you with a ban to say there won't be any strikes from this point on either. That's just telling you what the score is so there's no surprises in the future. I was initially feeling a ban would be more appropriate for you (LordPwner) but argued myself down to just a strike. Now I just think I shouldn't have tried to excuse your behavior. If the strikes aren't removed I will be advocating for a temporary discord ban on you.

While I've tried to handle it to the best of my ability this was also a late night thing for me and Mel was busy too, You can't just get staff on demand. We are people too.

Edited February 4, 2023 by WickedCybs
e

[goolie]

Going to say straight off the bat that some of these screenshots you've both posted are going back weeks or months, and in that time, neither of you have come to me to address the issues you have with my character. In those weeks and months, you've also continued to RP with my character with no issue in game and on the relay. I feel like it's a little disingenuous for you to collect all these relay screenshots that only show parts of conversations (without ahelping once in the past) and then drop them in a discord log where you're the one in trouble. The screenshots don't negate the fact that you both were the ones who brought the topic of sexual harassment into an IC situation. I also went ahead and messaged some of the people in the screenshots that are apparently uncomfortable with what I've said, and they're all totally fine with what was RPed. The only feedback I've ever gotten is that sometimes I can be a little too intense when it comes to RPing an antagonistic character.

Edited February 4, 2023 by goolie
post above was removed

[ReadThisNamePlz]

I am not the admin handling this complaint. However, if you post and you're not directly involved, you will be warned for violating the Staff-complaint rules. 
Do not attack other players in a thread. 

[DekserBecauseILostMyAccoun]

19 minutes ago, goolie said:

Going to say straight off the bat that some of these screenshots you've both posted are going back weeks or months, and in that time, neither of you have come to me to address the issues you have with my character. In those weeks and months, you've also continued to RP with my character with no issue in game and on the relay. I feel like it's a little disingenuous for you to collect all these relay screenshots that only show parts of conversations (without ahelping once in the past) and then drop them in a discord log where you're the one in trouble. The screenshots don't negate the fact that you both were the ones who brought the topic of sexual harassment into an IC situation. I also went ahead and messaged some of the people in the screenshots that are apparently uncomfortable with what I've said, and they're all totally fine with what was RPed. The only feedback I've ever gotten is that sometimes I can be a little too intense when it comes to RPing an antagonistic character.

I am only talking about Sveta and my own involvement through this reply

Firstly, none of the screenshots I've presented go back further than a week, with the longest ago being exactly 7 days ago. Nothing I've presented is anywhere close to weeks or months old. I will admit Sveta was only part of about 4 or 5 of them but that's out of 7.

Second, again nobody has accused anybody of sexual harassment I've had to say that several times. Sveta said she witnessed Keala harass some of the women in the Relay. So we can get the record straight, I'll define what harassment means: harassment, "aggressive pressure or intimidation." More in-depth: "illegal behaviour towards a person that causes mental or emotional suffering, which includes repeated unwanted contacts without a reasonable purpose, insults, threats, touching, or offensive language." Keala was purposefully insulting crew, threatening crew, and offending crew, therefore he was harassing crew. Sveta mostly witnessed this toward the women of the Relay, and so she called it out. I'll say it again, Sveta never suggested, intentionally made it possible to interpret or otherwise directly accused Keala of sexual harassment. She accused Keala of harassment.

Third, I'm happy to hear nobody was really made actually uncomfortable by the roleplay, because in the end its mostly an IC issue, I'm mainly focusing on the IC part of this. Sveta was reasonably upset with Keala for being an asshole. I fail to see how this resulted in OOC action and not IC action. I would have had zero issue if she was punished In-Character.

[Peppermint]

Hey,

@ReadThisNamePlz and I will be taking this. Give us some time to comb over the logs as there is a lot to go off of here. Remember to only post things that are actionable with proof. From what I'm seeing here there are three main concerns:

- Feeling like Cybs was unfair regarding the strike.
- Feeling that you two have been singled out and had unfair treatment (with the implication there's some favouritism going on.)
- Issues with how Keela acts toward others, and how their content is sometimes inappropriate too.

Remember that by posting complaints and whatnot everyone's actions are under review, and you can't really pick which problems you want looked at, so from my perspective this is where I'd be checking up.

[ReadThisNamePlz]

Peppermint and I have come to the conclusion that the decision from WickedCybs is entirely justified. Thus, we will not alter the punishment given. We understand that having to wait a while can be frustrating. It is important to remember that people on the staff team are only human, and we only have so many people available at a time. In the future, it is advised that you take a step back and wait patiently until someone can help you in a timely manner.

I will lock and archive this in 24 hours.