You guys have to calm down

[Frances]

I'm only speaking as a player here, but,

There's currently two complaints against Sue. There's also been a few more complaints recently, that many people have been vocal on. And the thing I've been noticing from all of them is that people actually seem to be opposing the idea that there should be conflict in this game, or that players should have a right to get involved in this conflict.

I get that there's a reason why player complaints like these exist. Some people do gank, validhunt, whatever. But I believe we've stepped far past the boundary of solely stopping these people, and the actions of some of this community's members have turned into a witch-hunt to out anyone involved within conflict.

As a player, I believe conflict is important. While understanding why validhunting, ganking, shitcurity/condoming are bad, I believe players have a right to create conflict of their own, and as much as we try to protect the liberties of everyone playing on the server, no one should actually expect to get their ideal and perfect scenario.

Antags, and even regular characters, are not here to hold your hand. We should not have to play on a server where someone has to face an increasing number of complaints simply because they choose to play an antag role. We should not have to play on a server where hostages are basically free to do what they want, because they do not believe antags will shoot them out of a misdirected notion of "ruining roleplay" or ganking. We should not have to play on a server where a majority of players vote for a gamemode which is essentially based around two opposing factions shooting it up, then act surprised or outraged when people actually get into fights, instead of stealthing it up and running away at the first sight of a bald assistant.

And I'm going to suggest the reason for this problem, from what I can see, is that people are taking the game too seriously. A majority of rounds last 2-3 hours at most. Death in the Aurora universe is non-canon (unless you choose for it to be), and so are antag rounds. In a game which is extremely slow-paced, based around playing hundreds and hundreds of rounds over weeks and months, I actually find myself really wishing people would get less upset because something went wrong once. And these are not even OOC incidents. These are IC events, which although they carry a negative IC connotation still contribute to creating interesting situations, and should not bleed out in OOC.

If you want to oppose something from an OOC perspective, you can, but think about why you want to. Do not confuse your character's feelings for your own. Because I am seeing players being attacked because "their characters look mean" or "their characters did bad things", without attackers actually attempting to evaluate whether these actions constituted good roleplay or not.

[SgtSammac]

This, please. This is what I meant in my post on your community thread Frances. Complaints are pop pining up almost a Daily, most of them are all for rediculously minor things that affect one person for all of five minutes.

[Guest]

This is so mindnumbingly stupid that it makes me think this server isn't worth my time anymore.

And by "this", I'm referring to people willing to bitch and complain over nothing without understanding the context over what happened.

I'm highly recommending we instate a rule that absolutely forbids people who were not involved in the round or the incident to post on a character/player complaint.

Because the peanut gallerying is just as equally toxic and serves to solve nothing.

[Serveris]

This is so mindnumbingly stupid that it makes me think this server isn't worth my time anymore.

And by "this", I'm referring to people willing to bitch and complain over nothing without understanding the context over what happened.

I'm highly recommending we instate a rule that absolutely forbids people who were not involved in the round or the incident to post on a character/player complaint.

Because the peanut gallerying is just as equally toxic and serves to solve nothing.

 

I do feel that the current method of issuing/handling/acknowledging complaints need to be changed in the form of a few new rules. . Maybe filter them directly through administration, and let them decide if the issue is worth posting on the forums for others to discuss?

[Guest]

I believe the forums has an "approve post" system in which replies to a thread must be approved by an overseeing staff member/whoever has the perms for that board.

It's potentially a lot slower but irrelevant things that don't need to be said will be filtered out and ignored.

[Guest]

A player favored by the Admins gets two complaints after fucking up repeatedly.

Almost immediately, a suggestion is made to rework the complaints system to require administrator approval for the submission of a complaint.

What a shining display of integrity.

And here I was, thinking that continiously nerfing whatever mechanic Ana was wrecked by last was a petty practice.

[Susan]

You should start writing fiction, Inverted. You're pretty good at making up stories. Though I guess not good at reading comprehension. 'Replies to a thread', not complaints themselves.

Delta and I don't even get along half the time, but obviously there's some kind of conspiracy or something here right. It's all one big conspiracy.

[Frances]

A player favored by the Admins gets two complaints after fucking up repeatedly.

Almost immediately, a suggestion is made to rework the complaints system to require administrator approval for the submission of a complaint.

What a shining display of integrity.

I do believe the reason why Sue has been allowed to continue engaging in her actions without punishment is because there is nothing wrong in what she did. (She has done wrong in the past, gotten notes over incidents where she stepped over the line, and will face stronger consequences - the same as everyone - if she displays excessive behavior. But that's not what happened here.)

This is sort of the same as an angry player complaining staff is "out to get them" or "not cutting them any slack" because they constantly keep breaking rules. There's a relatively clear ruleset/design intent with the server. If you break it, you get punished. If you don't, you don't get punished. Simple as that.

As for the suggestion to have administration filter player complaints, it was made by one person, who is not part of the moderation staff, so I would calm down about the conspiracy theory.

[Rusty Shackleford]

stuff

more stuff

 

Shitposting doesn't help anyone's point. I think the thread title is extremely applicable here.

[Guest]

Thread wasnt here when Mirk got banned for robusting security too hard, or when Bokaza got two complaints for... something I still dont quite understand...? Or that time Furry monkey bombed security, or all those times Nuke ops decided to murderbone more than usual.

Seems odd that everyone would suddenly drop their uptight attitude in regards to ganking and other miscellaneous chucklefuckery, hold hands and sing Kumbaya.

[Frances]

Thread wasnt here when Mirk got banned for robusting security too hard, or when Bokaza got two complaints for... something I still dont quite understand...? Or that time Furry monkey bombed security, or all those times Nuke ops decided to murderbone more than usual.

Seems odd that everyone would suddenly drop their uptight attitude in regards to ganking and other miscellaneous chucklefuckery, hold hands and sing Kumbaya.

I don't know about what happened with Mirk since I've been gone for a few months, but this thread is the direct result of me witnessing multiple incidents involving several people, not just Sue.

[Prospekt]

I really don't know what happened. Sorry to put it this way but it seems like we're playing EveryoneIsOnTheBigDot13. It really upsets me to see how eager people are to complain and possibly ruin someones relation with the server and/or their reputation. Seriously it's not cool at all. Ruining someone else for your own self benefit is really, really, selfish. What happened to the community that worked together through problems, when I came around. The complaint subforum was empty most of the time, maybe 1 or 2 complaints. Now it's full of garbage that is more minor than anything.

There is absolutely no need to complain unless it's major. If you need to vent and complain go to an open field and just scream like hell until you are not angry then come back.

This is a game meant for fun not stress, being angry, ruining people.

Let me ask a question, why are you here? Why do you play SS13? Please answer, I really want to know so I can prove my point. Like Frances said, you guys need to calm down. It's just a game.

[Cassie]

It's really not some one singular issue to be honest. I mean, I have not made any specific player/character complaints on this forums. When I see someone doing something problematic that I see is quite widespread, I make a topic/complaint about the behaviour, not the person.

But, when this happens, people say "Well, you'll have to make a topic when you see the actual behaviour so we can deal with it, or we can't help you." and I get tempted to do so because some people's IC conduct is so bad that it has destroyed my enjoyment of the actual game. Especially metarage passed off as IC rage (when I can obviously tell the difference), which is one of the worst things you can possibly do.

When people finally do make a topic in complaints/incidents on individual incidents, people say "Why are there so many topics! This community is hostile!" when in reality this community has been "hostile" for a while, and it's just more visible because it is being confronted directly. Usually in these situations, one or two things is happening:

1. Someone who fell out with a group of RP'ers for personal unrelated things is being picked on for little things in hopes of pecking them out.

2. Someone has gotten away with a certain set of destructive IC and OOC behaviours for a while now, and due to one person finally breaking the mould and speaking out, others take suit.

Now, how can we differentiate the two without lumping them in one whole unfairly? Because I don't think all the complaints in the complaints section are equal at all.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Guest

[Frances]

1. Someone who fell out with a group of RP'ers for personal unrelated things is being picked on for little things in hopes of pecking them out.

2. Someone has gotten away with a certain set of destructive IC and OOC behaviours for a while now, and due to one person finally breaking the mould and speaking out, others take suit.

Now, how can we differentiate the two without lumping them in one whole unfairly? Because I don't think all the complaints in the complaints section are equal at all.

People should be able to use logic to tell the two apart. I'm not opposing complaints as a whole, or saying that all complaints are bad (whether they be posts or simply verbal), but simply that there seems to be a noticeable anti-antag and anti-fighting sentiment going around, and it's causing some people to catch flak they should not be catching.

[Guest]

I don't know about what happened with Mirk since I've been gone for a few months, but this thread is the direct result of me witnessing multiple incidents involving several people, not just Sue.

 

You're trying to say the people accused in those complaints are innocent. And that the complaints were just petty shit-stirring and odd internet blood feuds being pursued. I agree to that.

My problem lies in the fact that you also put the complaints about Susan in the same category. I dont agree about that. If I were to elaborate on that, we'd be arguing about those complaints on three threads at the same time.

You're being dishonest by trying to sweep away those complaints as a momentary burst of forum dickery, Ffrances. I am disappointed, I always thought of you as being better than that.

[Frances]

You're trying to say the people accused in those complaints are innocent. And that the complaints were just petty shit-stirring and odd internet blood feuds being pursued. I agree to that.

My problem lies in the fact that you also put the complaints about Susan in the same category. I dont agree about that. If I were to elaborate on that, we'd be arguing about those complaints on three threads at the same time.

You're being dishonest by trying to sweep away those complaints as a momentary burst of forum dickery.

I am going to disagree here. I never saw any of these complaints as blood feuds, or anyone pursuing a grudge against someone else. Rather, people are ranting against events and actions that should not be deserving of any blame. Why that happens, I suspect, is because people are either overzealous, or simply refuse to accept that a good part of action RP involves people taking action, and not being nice all the time. But I don't think it's particularly because anyone has beef with another person.

 

I am disappointed, I always thought of you as being better than that.

Can we not resort to personal attacks, this accomplishes 0% of nothing.

[Erik Tiber]

You're trying to say the people accused in those complaints are innocent. And that the complaints were just petty shit-stirring and odd internet blood feuds being pursued. I agree to that.

My problem lies in the fact that you also put the complaints about Susan in the same category. I dont agree about that. If I were to elaborate on that, we'd be arguing about those complaints on three threads at the same time.

You're being dishonest by trying to sweep away those complaints as a momentary burst of forum dickery.

I am going to disagree here. I never saw any of these complaints as blood feuds, or anyone pursuing a grudge against someone else. Rather, people are ranting against events and actions that should not be deserving of any blame. Why that happens, I suspect, is because people are either overzealous, or simply refuse to accept that a good part of action RP involves people taking action, and not being nice all the time. But I don't think it's particularly because anyone has beef with another person.

If you don't think that Sue is being unfairly targeted, which is part of the obvious implication, then explicitly state it in your opening post. Personally I think that it's simply dealing with a long-time problem player. You're really putting her in the same category as everyone else with your statements, which is extremely silly. Bokaza just pissed off the wrong clique, while Sue's caused countless legit problems, people have simply previously not felt safe calling out. The only way they're related is the role which shaming and the threat of shaming played in both incidents.

I am disappointed, I always thought of you as being better than that.

Can we not resort to personal attacks, this accomplishes 0% of nothing.

I fail to see how stating his disappointment with you is a "personal attack". Quite frankly I also have my suspicions regarding the motives of your posts, because given the context it's quite reasonable to have such suspicions. And you really are conflating Sue's complaints with Bokaza's. If you're not going to admit to this, then yes, I think it's not all that out of line to bring your credibility into question.

[Frances]

If you don't think that Sue is being unfairly targeted, which is part of the obvious implication, then explicitly state it in your opening post.

I do think Sue is being unfairly targeted. I do not think she (and other players) are being targeted because of "blood feuds" or personal grudges, but because of the overall sentiment certain people have against characters creating conflict, or not acting like perfectly responsible citizens ICly. This entire thread exists to call out and discuss this sentiment.

 

I fail to see how stating his disappointment with you is a "personal attack". Quite frankly I also have my suspicions regarding the motives of your posts, because given the context it's quite reasonable to have such suspicions. And you really are conflating Sue's complaints with Bokaza's. If you're not going to admit to this, then yes, I think it's not all that out of line to bring your credibility into question.

Calling out a person by name and saying "I always thought of you as being better than that" is definitely somewhere within the realm of pettiness, especially when it is your first reaction to being confronted with something they have said you do not like. I understand people getting frustrated and wanting to share that frustration, but it does not serve Inverted's point well.

[Cassie]

You see, Sue might be making a lot of "enemies" because her IC actions are not kept in check, and frankly she gets away with a lot. Keep this going on for weeks, months, etc, and naturally resentment will build. This is not a witch-hunt, that is actually a poorly managed situation that has escalated. Keep in mind that the person who reported Sue was a new member who had a first experience with her as well. Sue gets complaints over consistent similar issues, revealing an unlying problem.

I'd describe a situation as a petty witch hunt if say, someone did something that is not related to the gameplay, like personal issues (IE: Someone breaks up with one of their friendship groups due to an argument over Game of Thrones, soon after, three incident reports show up on forums over silly little things like "Ran around with stun baton showing on code blue!" repeatedly until everyone turns against that person.)

[nbielinski]

**SNIPS**

 

Frances, as we have stated in other complaints, there seems to be the overwhelming issue where people think that this is an OOC witch hunt. Which is not the case what so ever. You state that ganking and being a poor roleplay as a bad thing that should be punished. Yet in the thread we had created yesterday, that was just the issue. Someone running up and killing two crew members indiscriminately. Now don't get me wrong, I love to debate and try and solve an issue but it feels we've gotten to the point where the argument against action being taken is simply, "Because instinct/fear/plans/ideas were being played out and it just ended with people killing eachother."

[Frances]

I don't know how much I want to argue single incidents in this thread (because they're already being debated into other threads), but I believe we were trying to establish what was done was not ganking.

Two crewmembers were not killed indiscriminately. Two crewmembers died trying to fight antags (for one), or operate around antags after antags had killed crew (for the other).

This is not the kind of behavior that should be punished OOCly.

[SierraKomodo]

Don't have the time to read all these threads, but I have no problems with conflict and such from antags, as long as it's done in a way that the victim can at least interact and respond. (I do think my original post might have come off the wrong way though, but it's too late to edit it since the thread has so many replies).

I'm just going to clarify here that my issue with Sue in that post wasn't that conflict happened, (That was clarified with me in ahelp, I'd had the wrong impression about combat once the shuttle arrives, and I have no problem with that particular aspect now that I know), or even that I died. It's in the manner it happened. It's that it happened with immediately being attacked, without a single thing said or emoted, and then being left there to die before my body was dragged off some time later. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse saying this repeatedly, but people don't seem to have been paying attention to the OP of that thread. -Shrug-

I figured the above was necessary to mention from skimming a couple posts. I'll read through everything in an hour or two

Edited April 15, 2015 by Guest

[nbielinski]

I don't know how much I want to argue single incidents in this thread (because they're already being debated into other threads), but I believe we were trying to establish what was done was not ganking.

Two crewmembers were not killed indiscriminately. Two crewmembers died trying to fight antags (for one), or operate around antags after antags had killed crew (for the other).

This is not the kind of behavior that should be punished OOCly.

 

As stated by several people prior, the issue seems not to be that antags kill people, honestly that's like telling someone that soldiers kill people and expecting them to be surprised, the issue is that the people in question seem to berate and be generally hostile constantly. Now I don't know about you but being stuck in what is equated to a deep space submarine, having someone around who is constantly mean and constantly irrationally cruel to people, well it just doesn't fit.

[Jamini]

I don't know how much I want to argue single incidents in this thread (because they're already being debated into other threads), but I believe we were trying to establish what was done was not ganking.

Two crewmembers were not killed indiscriminately. Two crewmembers died trying to fight antags (for one), or operate around antags after antags had killed crew (for the other).

This is not the kind of behavior that should be punished OOCly.

 

Quick point. The fight was originally started with an attempt to sopo one of the killed engineers and another engineer who survived. A syringegun-styled weapon that was fired without any prior warning or RP. Depending on that player's actions afterwards, it could very well have been an attempted gank. (It probably was not, but neverthless the opening move was slightly in that vein.)

Anyway, I'm bowing out of this now.

[Frances]

Quick point. The fight was originally started with an attempt to sopo one of the killed engineers and another engineer who survived. A syringegun-styled weapon that was fired without any prior warning or RP. Depending on that player's actions afterwards, it could very well have been an attempted gank. (It probably was not, but neverthless the opening move was slightly in that vein.)

Anyway, I'm bowing out of this now.

I don't understand exactly what players are expecting to happen out of this.

Should you clearly announce your attempt to kidnap someone before doing so? The original rules on ganking were put in place to prevent people from mindlessly killing everything they encounter without providing RP, not to force antagonists to provide everyone with a fair fight.