Complaint - Draculabot, Krypton_Osmium - Nuke

[Guest]

BYOND Key: oneonethreeeight

Player Byond Key: Draculabot, Krypton Osmium (I actually saw another ckey that was Krypton_Osmium, but whatever)

Reason for complaint: Hi. I wanna preface this with the fact I wanna have a civil discussion on antagging. I'm going to outline what occurred here. I've talked to Draculabot about this already and was satisfied with their answers, although they seemed more apologetic and upset than I was. Please do not make any more drama than what was already garnered up from me alongside others being ticked.

Okay, so. During this nuke round, I as the captain got a report of newcops breaching the telecomms. We go to code blue, we arm up. Sec and I maintain our position in the central ring while I tell everyone to start converging in the central parts of the station. Basic captain stuff.

Afterward, newcops start yelling at us and stuff. Business as usual. "We'll release lord singuloth if you act dumb." Obviously, we tell CC of what was going on. Few minutes later, newcops are breaking into tech storage to get the AI board. With a shotgun in my hands, and a HoS and another officer at my back (and a CE, who got thrown in by the confusion), start firing on the nuke ops. We chase them into maintenance, in which we're met with lolsuicidebomb, by Dallas, who I've put two shotgun slugs into. I don't think anyone could've really predicted this, ICly, that someone would've had a bomb in their bag ready to go to allah in a couple seconds flat, taking any infidels with them.

Seto and I get caught by lolbomb (thankfully, not gibbed), and we pick ourselves up and drag our stupid asses to medbay. Seto dies on the way, since he didn't have an awesome swat helmet that protects the wearer from bomb damage. I get dragged to medical, I get murdered by oxyloss+lungs fucking me over. Apparently, my organs and bones were pretty much maximum rekt anyway, so I'm not sure how surgery would've turned out even without lung ruptures.

I get cloned, Seto gets cloned. Everybody important gets cloned. For whatever reason, a sec officer is dragging a nuke op IPC through medbay (This is Draculabot, btw, I don't really blame him for what occurred. His objective was to assassinate me, though he didn't know I got cloned. AI didn't know I was dead, either.) with an explosive implant, ready to BTFU. I yell at the officer to get them away because, like, why are they even here. They blow up, I realize, oh, they were trying to kill me. Unfortunately, Atmos decides to fuck itself in the medbay and everybody and their mother goes flying everywhere, and people start gasping again. We all cry because of the utter chaos.

Honestly, the round all-in-all was pretty disappointing and I was questioning whether it was worth my time. Well, wasn't entirely a waste, got to talk to Sev about landwhales. But uh, I talked with Dracbot already, he wasn't hugely involved with the random ganky suicide bomb. Still, I was questioning throughout the round as to why the player of Dallas (the suicide bomber), decided it was a good idea to kill themselves, another nuke op buddy who I think was Spanker or George maxwell, and the command staff all in one, including the atmospherics that was connecting to the main hallways.

If I had to hazard a guess, this round was filled with bad antag decisions. Not filled with malice or any stupid 'admins ple;ase stop him he's ruining my immersion' comments. I dunno, really. It was a pretty sucky round for a lot of people.

I talked to Dracbot and gave him some further advice on antagging and other stuff, and did try to calmly explain what went wrong that round. Shit happens, basically.

Approximate Date/Time: 04APR2015, approx 9:40-11:00 PM.

[Gallic]

Atmos decides to fuck itself

 

In defense of Atmos, they didn't do anything wrong. Atmos was fine, I just made it look like it was borked. I have no idea why anyone was gasping considering I was careful to make sure nothing was amiss.

As one of the antags myself, I own up to:

1. Gank-y, slightly bad RP behavior. When an Atmos Tech walked in to see what happened, I told him some IPC stuff and to prepare to be shot at, and continued to talk to him while I purposefully clicked the tiles next to him aiming at his legs. The next one I accidentally shot his leg and his hand off before I could say much. He wasn't very happy and I felt really bad. ;c

2. Not knowing what I was really doing mechanically due to never playing this specific antag. I felt like the fool of the group.

3. Not really being with the greater picture considering we apparently came to some kind suicide pact, myself being the only one who didn't explode on purpose. My character was apparently the only one who valued his own life. And he was an IPC. Go figure.

[K0NFL1QT]

I get cloned, Seto gets cloned. Everybody important gets cloned.

 

Chief Engineer gets... left on the floor in medbay

But yeah, I just dislike the prevalence of suicide-bombing Nuke Ops. Yes it's an effective tactic, but if the bomb was strapped onto your back would you hit the button?

[Guest]

Atmos decides to fuck itself

 

In defense of Atmos, they didn't do anything wrong. Atmos was fine, I just made it look like it was borked. I have no idea why anyone was gasping considering I was careful to make sure nothing was amiss.

As one of the antags myself, I own up to:

1. Gank-y, slightly bad RP behavior. When an Atmos Tech walked in to see what happened, I told him some IPC stuff and to prepare to be shot at, and continued to talk to him while I purposefully clicked the tiles next to him aiming at his legs. The next one I accidentally shot his leg and his hand off before I could say much. He wasn't very happy and I felt really bad. ;c

2. Not knowing what I was really doing mechanically due to never playing this specific antag. I felt like the fool of the group.

3. Not really being with the greater picture considering we apparently came to some kind suicide pact, myself being the only one who didn't explode on purpose. My character was apparently the only one who valued his own life. And he was an IPC. Go figure.

 

Oh, that was when atmos in the medbay fucked itself even though explosive implants don't breach.

wait, do they?

Idk. Medbay got breached when draculabot said their codeword. ZAS murdered everyone in that firelock zone.

[Frances]

I don't really find a problem with either of the two bombing incidents.

In the first, all of the station's heads decided to chase the nuke ops together for some reason, and they ended up getting caught in the blast of a bomb (which was honestly a hilarious turn of events). But the point of nuke is pretty much to cause chaos and mayhem in an interesting way, and blowing up a bomb that manages to kill/harm all heads at once does pretty much that.

The second bomb everybody had pretty much been warned about, and as one of the doctors working in medbay at the time I clearly understood somebody say that the IPC had a bomb somewhere on him/her. I do not understand why they were dragged into a room full of people including all of the recently cloned heads (though it did happen pretty fast so I don't want to hold anyone at fault), but I really can't blame them for wanting to seize that opportunity.

All in all, some very unlucky heads got collectively blown up twice, but... isn't this sort of what nuke is about?

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I have to agree with ffrances. the ops are not obligated to fail or go easy on you for... whatever reason you cite. you all attacked them. thus implicetly agreeing to die if they were successful in resisting you with force. you were warned about the second bomb but failed to meet the requirements to keep it from blowing up.

You brought the deaths on yourself and the ops aren't in the wrong here. they aren't obligated to die peacefully. a bomb is just a big cyanide pill with more tactical value.

[Guest]

We couldn't have known that, that being that all of the nuke ops had a death wish sentence, and that they were willing to bomb everything and lead to the round ending within an hour and 15 minutes.

First the thing the nuke ops tells us is that they're gonna bomb the station if we don't move everyone to departures and call the shuttle. If we evac'd anyone to the outposts, they told us they'd bomb those outposts, too. If we called for ERT, they said they'd release the singularity.

At that point, Serveris and I just looked at each other like "oh. lol." and decided the nuke ops weren't willing to negotiate at all, nor did they present themselves as stable enough to do so. The RoE changed to 'weapons free.' By the time the AI told us the nuke ops were hitting the AI tech storage area, security was on the other half of the station and the HoS and I were the only ones equipped and ready to blow the heads off of hostile terrorists. They're in an extremely shitty position and I'm pretty sure I inflict suit breaching on the both of them as well as sepsis.

I assume Dallas figured he was dead anyway, though I think Spanker was fine. Still, we know what happened from there.

I dunno. The way the nuke ops presented themselves, they didn't really show they were interested in roleplay, to us. They just wanted to shoot and bomb shit, which, honestly. There's no other sensible reaction to this besides filling their head full of holes.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

So you refused to comply with their demands, you engaged antagonists, and you died as a result. They had a pretty clear warning to you, which you didn't abide and you were punished. This is literally our situation we had before except reversed and with a higher body count.

They do not deserve a character complaint if we're going to remain consistent with our morality on these things.

[Guest]

Can you kindly stop peanut gallerying? You weren't here for the round, I don't think it's your place to assume things. Please stop.

Their threats were "we bomb things." They didn't really give any reason to the crew as to why they were doing that. That was the extent of the station's interaction with the antagonists. I didn't mind dying. I got revived, I went on my merry way.

The issue that I had with the round was primarily that there was little interaction that was garnered from the antagonists besides yelling, shooting and bombing.

For the round to end at an hour and 15 minutes because the antags got carried away and accidentally went on a gank spree is not usual for a typical nuke round. They typically stretch on for a lot longer than that.

The thing is, the issue with certain antags over others is the weapons they have at their disposal to create conflict. In order to create conflict, you have to escalate, do you not? Bombs are possibly the absolute strongest and arguably the furthest point anyone could ever escalate a situation to create utter chaos. But there are sensible limits to this.

Killing one person with a laser rifle, and making sure their corpse is returned to be cloned is one thing. Detonating an explosive implant, venting the entire medbay and forcing several patients to not be able to receive treatment and therefore die as a result of it, just because the antagonist wanted to assassinate the captain.

The explosion was not controlled. It led to the death of a lot of people who weren't even involved, and it forced the doctors that were assisting to drop everything and fuck off. Their job was over.

But since we're quoting previous incidents that have no real correlation, why not. During that round, I had a few grenades designed to distract engineering and security, and cause a bit of panic. But these were controlled. I knew what I was doing with them, and I was careful not to throw them into massive crowds of people who just wanted to do their job in whatever department. When security arrived after I lasered you to death, I tossed a grenade in with a cyborg and a warden, who was on the outpost for whatever reason. they both died, so did I after a few minutes, since I didn't realize I had the 100-100 potassium-water grenade on me. Ended up being a more lethal explosion than I intended. I was thinking about that situation. I was taking precautions and I was being very careful, up until the point I realized I wiffed my 50-50 from earlier.

As opposed to this situation, in which the person holding the suicide bomb didn't seem to be thinking at all. They weren't taking into account the grief that atmos inflicts upon people, the fact that the central ring was entirely vented, engineering was obliterated, and that beepsky was making the problem even worse. There wasn't any forethought into their decision to suicide bomb besides a in-the-moment rush, which I can understand.

The part where the warden dragged an explosive-implanted IPC into medbay of all places, instead of sending them to the brig where they belong, was what made me raise an eyebrow, too. I don't think Dracbot realized what explosive implants did in terms of damage, but I think a lot of the ops this round were first-timers.

Maybe you should re-read my intentions, Jackboot, this isn't about you. I honestly want to help teach the antags that participated in this round mechanics and foresight.

You're not helping here.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Guest

[Skull132]

We couldn't have known that, that being that all of the nuke ops had a death wish sentence, and that they were willing to bomb everything and lead to the round ending within an hour and 15 minutes.

 

That is. Actually a legitimate IC issue, in my opinion. You couldn't have known, and that's fine. Because that's how roleplay is. You only know as much as you know. I really. I really can't explain it in words. But. Yeah, missing information or information that cannot be found out until it has happened. In fact, that's a thing that's also observable in real life, and in my opinion, it fits perfectly fine with a combat situation. Specially when the combat is conducted by individuals who really are not trained nor prepared for the enemy.

The two different bombings. First one I'm a little fussy about, because you didn't directly clarify whether or not you're dealing with an implant or an actual bomb. So, if you could clarify, please?

The second one was an implant, as much as I was able to gather. And I'm not seeing anything wrong with its utilization. The nuke operative was given an opportunity to cause major havoc in a critical area of the station. From what I understand of the complaint, he was brought there. Ergo, against his own will. That is honestly a golden opportunity for a team member who's already out of the fight to make himself useful. It's. Honestly, the greatest value you can have for an explosives implant (note that those have two purposes: use for blackmail, or making sure that you yourself don't get captured). And consider that some of the syndicate are considered rather extremist, so it'd fit RP as well.

[Serveris]

That is. Actually a legitimate IC issue, in my opinion. You couldn't have known, and that's fine. Because that's how roleplay is. You only know as much as you know. I really. I really can't explain it in words. But. Yeah, missing information or information that cannot be found out until it has happened. In fact, that's a thing that's also observable in real life, and in my opinion, it fits perfectly fine with a combat situation. Specially when the combat is conducted by individuals who really are not trained nor prepared for the enemy.

The two different bombings. First one I'm a little fussy about, because you didn't directly clarify whether or not you're dealing with an implant or an actual bomb. So, if you could clarify, please?

The second one was an implant, as much as I was able to gather. And I'm not seeing anything wrong with its utilization. The nuke operative was given an opportunity to cause major havoc in a critical area of the station. From what I understand of the complaint, he was brought there. Ergo, against his own will. That is honestly a golden opportunity for a team member who's already out of the fight to make himself useful. It's. Honestly, the greatest value you can have for an explosives implant (note that those have two purposes: use for blackmail, or making sure that you yourself don't get captured). And consider that some of the syndicate are considered rather extremist, so it'd fit RP as well.

 

The first explosion in engineering maintenance (the one that wiped out command) was a tank transfer valve opened in the middle of a firefight. Coincidentally, the blast occurred right next to the incinerator, which effectively resulted in a canister bombing immediately afterward.

Both nuke ops in the tunnel and Chief Engineer Jon Jackson were killed instantly in the blast.

I (Syrus Seto) was standing right next to Dallas and Jon when Dallas popped the transfer, with Vira behind us a few feet. I survived the initial blast thanks to the flak jacket, and was able to limp just outside of cargo before I succumbed to being a pulp of toasted flesh. What happened afterwards, I'm rather unsure of; I believe the medbay detonation occurred while I was being cloned in genetics, so I can't say aware of the circumstances in which they occurred, nor will I try to.

I for one enjoyed the round. I enjoyed the combat situation, and the roleplay before and after. The suicide bombing was rather unexpected, and a bit rushed. I'm still not entirely sure what the ops were trying to accomplish, as the only real interaction with the crew was them talking about how they planned to bomb the station to bits. Judging by what they said over comms, that was the only agenda.

While I did fall victim to the 'gank,' I was not wholly dissatisfied with the round, and still had an enjoyable experience as a result of it.

Landwhales. All I have to say about that.

[Baka]

The discussion of anything but the case in point will cease from here on out. If you cannot attribute to the topic at hand, do not comment. If there is a post that you believe is not on topic, report it and we will handle it. Do I make myself clear?

[Guest]

Complaint is resolved. Shut 'er down.

[Baka]

Okay, locking and archiving. Please PM me if you want it opened up again or have any questions or concerns.