Capital Punishment and You! - narrative suggestions for framing borging and marooning.

[lilahnovi]

THIS IS JUST AN RP GUIDE TO CONSIDER AND ADOPT IF YOU VIBE WITH IT.
I'm not here to kick up some other debate, nor am I suggesting any policy change. If you dislike it, that's fine. Different narrative strokes for different narrative folks. 

So, this started from a conversation between myself and another player, and I thought it was neat and wanted to present it.

There is kind of this view that marooning is the merciful option, while borging is the horrible option. Marooning is pretty horrible, too, but I think there is a way to better frame these punishments and guide their use in a more equal way. Why decide on one or the other? Or be 'merciful?' or be more cruel? It doesn't have to be one of these two options. Instead, you might consider... are they an outsider or part of the community? What message does the punishment serve to send? 

Marooning - the option for crewmembers
I personally think on a narrative level that marooning is much better and much more symbolic for crew members. You are ousting them from their home, their community, and they are being exiled. It is done to punish a member of the group. You're not just leaving them on a rock - you're letting them know they're not with you anymore. They're alone in the Spur now. You broke our trust, and now you've lost the ability to be cared for by the group in this very harsh place. You might MIGHT get lucky, and get picked up by someone (yeah right) -- but more likely, you'll run out of supplies, and then die suffocating. The punishment says, "Out here, you are nothing without us." I think we sometimes have a mistaken tendency to treat members of crew who are antag as suddenly not part of the crew. But they are called 'traitor' for a reason. Exile them, and show them what being a traitor gets them.

Borging - the option for outsiders
If someone is an intruder, and they are trying to take from you, borging feels more thoughtful. You are essentially forcing that person to come and serve your community against their will, make them pay for, work for, or replace what was lost. It's a fantastic punishment for someone who comes in to your village, your home, and makes a mess. It's also more realistically grim and terrifying - borging is done to people outside your 'group' as both a punishment and warning. "Hey, see this guy? He had the nerve to come into our community, and try and harm us. Well, look at him now. Let this be a warning to show what we do to those who think they can come in here and do whatever they please."

Remember, framing can do a ton of legwork, and can lead to more satisfying outcomes, and make it feel like command is doing things for the sake of the crew, which leads to more loyalty.


P.S. ------------------ More framing, but less about marooning and borging. Just a tangent!
As a side bit that was also part of that conversation - I think that command should be more willing to consider the potential outcome of a decision, even if it's non-canon and the round is coming to an end. Play as if the story is continuing in some alternate universe. Would it make sense to do something that angers half the crew and puts a target on your back? There is something of a duty to keep things orderly and keep up group cohesion (if you're a good member of leadership anyhow.) It's important to remember that this ship is a home for people. We're a village flying in space, and the crew are your neighbors, so it's better to do right by them (or at least present the veneer that you are doing so.)
It's fundamentally more interesting when a corporation has a shiny face that is trying to hide their dirty laundry and nastiness behind suits and perks. They're acting for themselves on the bottom line and don't care about you, yes -- but they don't like to particularly look that way. It's bad for business, and corporations do take "Reputation Risk" into account financially. That's why the event pirates being borged was not mentioned in the papers.
The entire Horizon is an effort in keeping this veneer up as I see it - "Watch us save the Spur. We'll find those new reserves, and everything will be okay again. Also, look how well our employees live. So many wonderful amenities. We really do care about you." In that, it would be conducive to their mission to make sure command at least tries to upkeep this and save face where it can. Maybe try your best not to break down the illusion by implying, "of course you work for a terrible corporate dystopia and have no rights, what did you think this was?" Protect the assets by protecting the image!

Edited October 6, 2023 by lilahnovi

[KingOfThePing]

Why do we need a third thread discussing this topic that re-heats the same points with different words? I really recommend actually suggesting an alternative to these two capital punishments, if they are really so bad. 

There are options to take (like brig, solitary, etc.) but usually antags who get borged are just an insufferable pain in the ass or not containable. Yes, you are right, differentiating between who the culprit is should play a factor and should be handled more gracefully but in the end this has all been said already. 

[Ublicto]

25 minutes ago, KingOfThePing said:

Why do we need a third thread discussing this topic that re-heats the same points with different words? I really recommend actually suggesting an alternative to these two capital punishments, if they are really so bad. 

There are options to take (like brig, solitary, etc.) but usually antags who get borged are just an insufferable pain in the ass or not containable. Yes, you are right, differentiating between who the culprit is should play a factor and should be handled more gracefully but in the end this has all been said already. 

"usually antags who get borged are just an insufferable pain in the ass or not containable"

Half of this is an OOC reason and the other half does not warrant borging considering a prison break isn't a good reason to borg every antag. If you want less shitty antags why not discuss introducing an antag draft or finding other means to make more people play antag? That would make a good thread.

[lilahnovi]

29 minutes ago, KingOfThePing said:

Why do we need a third thread discussing this topic that re-heats the same points with different words? I really recommend actually suggesting an alternative to these two capital punishments, if they are really so bad. 

There are options to take (like brig, solitary, etc.) but usually antags who get borged are just an insufferable pain in the ass or not containable. Yes, you are right, differentiating between who the culprit is should play a factor and should be handled more gracefully but in the end this has all been said already. 

I am not debating anything nor attempting to reheat anything, nor are any policy changes being suggested. I'm making a little RP guide for people to consider and adopt if they vibe with it. This is literally just a "hey, here's a neat conversation I had with someone, maybe you might like to know about it." Maybe I should clarify at the beginning.

I felt like it didn't belong in the "remove borging" thread, as that's not even close to the point I was trying to make. I already added my thoughts there.
I just wanted to put the idea out there as something neat and tidy. I considered putting it in general, but I wasn't entirely sure. I felt this area of the forum was the best place to stick it.
If it's been mentioned in a 3-page thread, I didn't quite find it. Nobody needs to adhere to this. If there was a brainstorming category, I would be happy to put it in there.

[KingOfThePing]

14 minutes ago, Ublicto said:

Half of this is an OOC reason and the other half does not warrant borging considering a prison break isn't a good reason to borg every antag. If you want less shitty antags why not discuss introducing an antag draft or finding other means to make more people play antag? That would make a good thread.

It is neither an OOC reason nor does it "not warrant borging" - the regulations are actually quite clear. I noticed during the discussion in the other thread that many people have not actually read them.

Also your solution to this topic is another antag draft? Because people who dont even want to play antag make better ones? I cant quite follow here.

Edited October 6, 2023 by KingOfThePing

[greenjoe]

17 minutes ago, Ublicto said:

discuss introducing an antag draft

that will just give shittier antags who don't even want to be antag

[ImmortalRedshirt]

18 minutes ago, Ublicto said:

If you want less shitty antags why not discuss introducing an antag draft or finding other means to make more people play antag? That would make a good thread.

I fail to see how this would fix the problem. All it does is encourage half-baked gimmicks by people who are mechanically railroaded into something they didn't even want to do.

Basically everyone who was around during those days has nothing positive to say about it.

[lilahnovi]

Isn't there a rule about derailing? I clarified to King that this was just a rp guide for folks if they felt like using it, and fixed my post up. This has nothing to do with antag draft... 😭

[Arrow768]

Given that you posted this in the suggestions forum for (code) suggestions and said that this is not a policy suggestion, I’d like to inquire what changes to our code base you are suggesting.

[Ublicto]

17 hours ago, KingOfThePing said:

It is neither an OOC reason nor does it "not warrant borging" - the regulations are actually quite clear. I noticed during the discussion in the other thread that many people have not actually read them.

Also your solution to this topic is another antag draft? Because people who dont even want to play antag make better ones? I cant quite follow here.

"Insufferable pain in the ass" sounds like an OOC reason to me. My solution is that people who want quality antags should either be made to play antags or server culture must change and become more accommodating for antags, as I spoke about in the other thread. With regards to this thread, I think an announcement similar to the one that was made about command not sending confirmation messages for every antag fax would do a lot to fix some of the issues I and others have. What Lilahnovi wrote here with some changes about retaining valuable outside prisoners rather than borging them would do a lot of good if it was made official policy even if it is not everything I want.

[Arrow768]

23 hours ago, Arrow768 said:

Given that you posted this in the suggestions forum for (code) suggestions and said that this is not a policy suggestion, I’d like to inquire what changes to our code base you are suggesting.

As you have not explained what code (or even policy) suggestions you have this is being moved to the general section of the forum.