Prevent indirectly shutting down antags by hiding items

[Fyni]

Hello! Now, I think the title is a bit confusing but I'm not sure how to summarize my suggestion in short. Here it is a bit longer:

Certain key items which can be used by antags (such as the Captain's Spare ID or the Nuke Disk, which I realize now largely exsist in the Cap's office) should not be stored hidden, be it in a safe, locker or similiar unless a threat to the item specifically has been noted, or an escalation of alert level.

This comes in the wake of a round about a week ago, where the raider's planned to use copied access to fulfil their (admittedly fairly mchanical) gimmick to use the Horizon's weapons to get revenge on their (off screen) enemies, but after a botches attempted to enter the Cap's office were met with the Levi key and the Spare ID been missing. I never did find out where they were, be it in the safe or a locker or somewhere else. WIthout access, the Raiders quickly bogged down and were dispatched by Security in short order, ending the gimmick almost before it had even started.

In a LRP or MRP server, where often the goal is to show off how robust you are and to "win", hiding such items in safes or similiar only makes sense. However, on Aurora where antag actions are for the drama of it, it can often lead to an antag been shut down before they had chance to flourish. Antagonists are often already fighting a uphill battle, and while expectations of players is to give them leeway (an important duty of command players for example), actions such as hiding items without good cause indirectly often has the same effect as immediately calling Security when you glimpse a Changeling for one second in maint assaulting someone.

This problem could be fixed mechanically - for example, hiding the such items in a glass "cabinet" akin to EVA where the suits are, where an antag could easily smash open. Possibly, this could lock/become harder to access with an alert level change too. This would give IC justification to just leaving the items "out in the open". It could also be fixed by changing policy and include hiding such items without justification come under "powergaming".

Thanks for reading!

[Evandorf]

I get the frustration of not being able to find what you need but two things:

1. There are mechanical remedies for some of this already. For example, the raiders specifically have a tracker for the nuke disk. There is also a door hacking tool to remove the need for grabbing the spare, or simply using an emag. Most often the Captain will place things in their safe or secure briefcase, either one can be hacked with standard tools and are easy places to look,
2. There is also an expectation for heads of staff not to metagame overmuch. If you feel like a head of staff has gone out of their way without clear IC reasons to keep something from an antagonist then I'd recommend ahelping it.

[Carver]

I’m vehemently opposed to this, it would be a purely OOC restriction that takes away from any semblance of logic or realism. It’s already fairly trivial to track these things down if they’re moved, you shouldn’t be handed them for essentially free just for breaking into a room - especially items as round swaying as the spare ID or the authentication disk. An antagonist shouldn’t expect to have everyone bend over backwards to make sure every step of their gimmick goes according to plan.

If your gimmick entirely relies around one of these items, then it’s a risk you willingly take. If you are unable to handle this risk then it would be prudent to come up with another gimmick entirely, or have a back-up gimmick.

On a final note, a (non-vault) safe is the easiest thing in the game to break into, use a multitool.

[Fyni]

I of course understand the issue of handing things to antags - but especially in the early stages of their round, surely that's what's expected of players, especially command - a lot is geared to not shut things down early, from command expecting to play along, a general expectation to not shout down a radio immediately, security armed with the weaker weapons to start. Breaking into the Cap's office is when the antag should expect to escalate their antagonism, when security is going to gear up and blue is going to get called. It's not about getting every step allowed for - it's about those early steps in a round before a conflict can properly start, when things are starting to move towards escalation.

If items are intended to be hard to get, then they should be hard to get - swiping the AI, grabbing whatever macguffin from the vault you want. The Cap's ID is a tool to an end for an antagonist, and if it was generally agreed that it should not be possible to get, then why doesn't it start more secure then "on the Captain's desk".

I of course realize I'm second guessing the intent of mappers and admins in the past here. I briefly even saw the spare ID was a topic brought up in the forums before. Please correct me if I've misjudged on this.

[Susan]

I'm against this for the reasons Carver's already said, and I don't think I can vocalize them any better. The Spare ID spawns where it is because there is not always a captain, and it is inasmuch a tool for the crew as it is antags - extended rounds, et al. If it spawned in a safe only the Captain could access, then nobody would be able to do anything without an XO or Captain.

Securing high-value items is not strange, nor is it metagaming. It is SOP.

And yes, safes and secure briefcases are laughably easy to force open. A screwdriver and a multitool.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Susan

[Butterrobber202]

hello. I am an antag main.

there is no need for this. If you are thinking about stealing something, bring the tools for the job. Raiders have an emag. Just emag the captains safe and locker, they both will open. If they aren’t there, they are on the Captain. Shoot them in the head and loot their body.

[Carver]

Echoing what Sue said, the primary reason the spare is easy to get is that we don’t have any real mechanical system for heightening access in emergencies otherwise. Only the Executive of Personnel has that access out of all Command, the rest are dependent on an Engineer allowing them into said office to assume acting captaincy or get into important places during emergencies. On low pop, it can be quite crucial to have if the random events go wild.

It’s not that the spare is really intended to be trivially stolen (the current mapping style has long passed the era of explicitly balancing mapping around gameplay), it’s that we have never worked out a suitable system that can comfortably replace the need for it while also covering all scenarios. Though, if one is willing to sacrifice low pop needs (and hopefully balance events better for said pop) then a command-reliant semi-automated system of acting captaincy would be the probable replacement, likely using the office card swipers.

As for the authentication disk, it’s essentially a fluff piece. Mechanically, it’s a vestigial relic of when Mercenary was Nuclear Emergency. Protecting it is essentially one of the Captain’s foremost duties dating back to that era, and honestly there would be no real loss if it were removed given the only situation that it has any use is when an admin wants a nuclear device to go off (a situation where it could be spawned).

[Star Dust]

On 23/12/2023 at 13:26, Fyni said:

Hello! Now, I think the title is a bit confusing but I'm not sure how to summarize my suggestion in short. Here it is a bit longer:

Certain key items which can be used by antags (such as the Captain's Spare ID or the Nuke Disk, which I realize now largely exsist in the Cap's office) should not be stored hidden, be it in a safe, locker or similiar unless a threat to the item specifically has been noted, or an escalation of alert level.

This comes in the wake of a round about a week ago, where the raider's planned to use copied access to fulfil their (admittedly fairly mchanical) gimmick to use the Horizon's weapons to get revenge on their (off screen) enemies, but after a botches attempted to enter the Cap's office were met with the Levi key and the Spare ID been missing. I never did find out where they were, be it in the safe or a locker or somewhere else. WIthout access, the Raiders quickly bogged down and were dispatched by Security in short order, ending the gimmick almost before it had even started.

In a LRP or MRP server, where often the goal is to show off how robust you are and to "win", hiding such items in safes or similiar only makes sense. However, on Aurora where antag actions are for the drama of it, it can often lead to an antag been shut down before they had chance to flourish. Antagonists are often already fighting a uphill battle, and while expectations of players is to give them leeway (an important duty of command players for example), actions such as hiding items without good cause indirectly often has the same effect as immediately calling Security when you glimpse a Changeling for one second in maint assaulting someone.

This problem could be fixed mechanically - for example, hiding the such items in a glass "cabinet" akin to EVA where the suits are, where an antag could easily smash open. Possibly, this could lock/become harder to access with an alert level change too. This would give IC justification to just leaving the items "out in the open". It could also be fixed by changing policy and include hiding such items without justification come under "powergaming".

Thanks for reading!

Antags already have enough breaks, anything that gives antags more power I'm fully against it. Antags need to stop being given so many crutches and just learn to adapt instead of being given everything they need to win

[OolongCow]

On 23/12/2023 at 20:53, Butterrobber202 said:

hello. I am an antag main.

there is no need for this. If you are thinking about stealing something, bring the tools for the job. Raiders have an emag. Just emag the captains safe and locker, they both will open. If they aren’t there, they are on the Captain. Shoot them in the head and loot their body.

You don't even need an emag. If the captain moves things to their safe it's unironically less secure than their locker. You just screwdriver it and spam a multitool, same as the secure briefcase.

[Sniblet]

Why is the justification against this that we don’t want antags to win easily? Why is the word “win” being used? Is this still Aurora? Where am I?

If you get the captain’s spare for your gimmick that requires AA, that does not mean you are winning. It means your gimmick is progressing. Hopefully, you’ve planned, and are going to do something interesting with it. If not, that’s a problem with you, not with the spare being available to you. You’re ignorant about how antags work here (it’s okay, I was too like 6 months ago) and getting the spare or not will not change the kind of round you’re working to present to everyone.

If you do not get the captain’s spare because the captain has put the captain’s spare in their vault, in their briefcase, on their person, or in the HoS locker, and you’re just not experienced enough with the tricks that some captains will randomly and without prompting go out of their way to play on you, you aren’t losing. You’re being arbitrarily prevented from progressing your gimmick by someone who didn’t even know whether there was going to be a gimmick. The spare might as well have spawned in some random alternate location. Your gimmick is now that you’re trying to find the spare. It’s pretty likely that you will now be shot to death before you’re able to do the actually fun thing you had planned, and then the captain has to do another routine announcement about how the pirate is dead (you were not a pirate, you in no way wanted to resemble a pirate, you were actually something MUCH cooler that you were not permitted to show off). Who wins when something fun is prevented from happening, and something boring and routine happens instead?

If you genuinely don’t want the antag to have an easy time winning? Get out. Out. Go to TG for some perspective and think about what you’re saying. Please, it doesn’t even have to be for long, just remind yourself of what we are trying really hard all the time to not be.

If you want your secure items to be in a place that makes more sense ICly? That’s okay, it’s actually pretty cool. They should naturally and always spawn somewhere that seems more logical, and still not be permissible to move. Please god don’t let the crew make it inconsistent for antags to complete their basic setup for no particular reason besides the crew wanting to uhhhhh

uuuhhhhh

what’s that word I keep using oh yeah

win.

tl;dr relocating secure items without cause might be realistic ICly, but OOCly is the same in principle as refusing to respond to being put at gunpoint because you can mechanically, or even realistically push through a reflex shot (note that doing this is prevented by rules). The similarity is that you need to to let the antag have their way a little, even if it means breaking character in small and often unnoticed ways (what do you mean bending over backwards??), in order for them to ever do or be anything interesting that you might even enjoy

Edited February 22, 2024 by Sniblet

[Carver]

Stealing the spare is not basic set-up, it’s one of the most (if not the absolute most) valuable items on the ship. Buying a cryptographic sequencer or getting a set of tools from tool storage is basic set-up.

Aurora is, above all, an HRP server. IC realism is why I’m here. You’re not being ‘arbitrarily prevented’ from a gimmick because you weren’t handed the most valuable item on the ship on a silver platter, and if you needed all-access to show off how ‘cool’ you are then I don’t really know what to say.

[Fyni]

24 minutes ago, Carver said:

Aurora is, above all, an HRP server. IC realism is why I’m here.

I've seen both sides of this thread and there are arguements from both sides, but Command are expected to bend IC realism to allow antags to work - pretend to not see small things, ignore slight discrepencies etc.

If "the most valuable item on the ship" not been moved breaks this IC realism, then why does it spawn on an easy to access table - it's not even behind a windoor. Perhaps moving this (and other) Captain's items to a special storage could prevent both issues - makes it more realistic, but allow antags to know where it is.

Many have been quick to point out the safe is easy to hack, and all access is not important to gimmick but this thread was not created just for this. All these items could be carried around in a secure briefcase, move to a different office, split up and hidden. It's all just indirectly preventing an antag from achieving a step of their goal. These actions to secure these items is reasonable if there is a threat, but during code green before any threat is obvious, I think it is best they are left to sit where they start (or at least in line of sight).

If hiding/securing these items is SOP, then why do they even spawn in the open?

[Carver]

1 minute ago, Fyni said:

I've seen both sides of this thread and there are arguements from both sides, but Command are expected to bend IC realism to allow antags to work - pretend to not see small things, ignore slight discrepencies etc.

If "the most valuable item on the ship" not been moved breaks this IC realism, then why does it spawn on an easy to access table - it's not even behind a windoor. Perhaps moving this (and other) Captain's items to a special storage could prevent both issues - makes it more realistic, but allow antags to know where it is.

Many have been quick to point out the safe is easy to hack, and all access is not important to gimmick but this thread was not created just for this. All these items could be carried around in a secure briefcase, move to a different office, split up and hidden. It's all just indirectly preventing an antag from achieving a step of their goal. These actions to secure these items is reasonable if there is a threat, but during code green before any threat is obvious, I think it is best they are left to sit where they start (or at least in line of sight).

If hiding/securing these items is SOP, then why do they even spawn in the open?

Why does it spawn there? At this point, a near-vestigial mapping tradition given the spare on the desk has existed going back well over a decade - and we’ve never gotten around to coding a more realistic replacement (such as using the command card swipers to promote an Acting Captain). Slight discrepancies are one thing, all-access is another, and if someone chooses to move this or that item that is under their explicit care and safeguard then so be it. I’ve yet to see a genuinely absurd example to where a Captain has hidden something of importance in a truly annoying manner and not been punished for it, such as hiding it in a random toilet cistern or handing it off to an assistant at the start of the round - it’s always in a safe, in a briefcase, on the Captain’s person or somewhere equally reasonable.

Variables such as these shift things up and prevent repetition, and as repetition goes there was a period on the prior map where the spare was stolen near effectively every round to where there was support from quite several people in suggesting it be removed or replaced entirely. I’m starting to think again that it should be removed, if people are seeing access to it as an antagonist as their God-given right. The spare, the nuclear authentication disk, the leviathan key - these are not small things to be overlooked, and they never should be treated as such. These are items that single-handedly see the ship escalated to Code Red, they are the end goal of a gimmick, not a mere step along the way.

[OolongCow]

I agree with Carver. The spare is not left on the table solely for their benefit. It's a leftover of mapping traditions that not even TG does anymore. It's left on that table only BECAUSE antags don't take it every single round, and because it was more convenient for mappers when the Horizon was being made to leave it there for acting captainship than to code in a new system.

You're not entitled to perhaps the most powerful singular item on the ship, that it makes zero sense for an active captain to not take incredibly basic steps to safeguard, just because you ticked a box in character setup. Being handed every tool you could ever want and total power over the ship with no effort whatsoever is boring for antags and boring for the crew. Just buy an emag or door hacking device that you're lliterally handed on a silver platter with bluecrystals if you NEED all access for your gimmick.

[Sniblet]

8 hours ago, Carver said:

one of the most (if not the absolute most) valuable items on the ship.

From a mechanical perspective. I’ll repeat what you said, though: this is an HRP server. An antag obsessed with mechanical power is going to shape up or wash out after a bwoink or two (hi), hence how rarely the spare gets taken now, even if it’s easy for someone with sufficient meta knowledge to know where it is when not in its correct place, and in-character knowledge to get to it. 1-year antag main speaking: I’ve been in the captain’s office about four, five times, and one of those times I was invited, and all but two of those times it was not to take anything.

If your gimmick requires, for some reason, something silly like seizing the Leviathan and powering it up before anyone knows you’re here - then AA, and not fake-AA-that-makes-you-wait-10s-per-door-and-is-useless-for-anything-else from the uplink, is basic to your setup. There are many situations where AA might be basic. Most of them are absurd. Should anyone care, if it’s to make sure this is a good and memorable round?

Carver, you seem to be assuming that all or most antags want to play Aurora LRP and only accumulate power for no story purpose. In my experience, that’s pretty rare (~1 a day, always solo antags, usually the same character on a streak until they get picked up by staff). Most antags I’ve played with are aware that they have to shoot themselves in the foot mechanically and focus on the round’s experience, and so, we do not take the ID at roundstart any more unless that’s an explicit step of a goal that needs us to have AA early in a way that can’t wait for negotiating, hostage crises, or breaking in from inside rather than through the window. I hear you saying that this used to happen a lot. It doesn’t now. We’re on Horizon now and the staff are hard at work to make things work differently. “You steal AA at the start of every round you’re antag” is something that you could read in a player complaint.

This also isn’t just about the spare. Everything also applies to the disk, which is functionally a gimmick prop and nothing else, same as the map and the ECD and Tokash’s spearhead and the blueprints and whathaveyou. There’s no OOC reason to hide them apart from giving an antag a hard time, and there’s no reason to do that unless you either have zero faith that they will ever do anything positive for the round, are trying to win a competition, or… just think that good things should not come easily to anyone ever?

Edited February 22, 2024 by Sniblet

[OolongCow]

On 22/02/2024 at 13:40, Sniblet said:

If your gimmick requires, for some reason, something silly like seizing the Leviathan and powering it up before anyone knows you’re here - then AA, and not fake-AA-that-makes-you-wait-10s-per-door-and-is-useless-for-anything-else from the uplink, is basic to your setup. 

No, it isn't.

On 22/02/2024 at 13:40, Sniblet said:

This also isn’t just about the spare. Everything also applies to the disk, which is functionally a gimmick prop and nothing else, same as the map and the ECD and Tokash’s spearhead and the blueprints and whathaveyou. There’s no OOC reason to hide them apart from giving an antag a hard time, and there’s no reason to do that unless you either have zero faith that they will ever do anything positive for the round, are trying to win a competition, or… just think that good things should not come easily to anyone ever?

As opposed to the fun RP generated by having to figure out a way to get those items? Heads aren't doing it so you can never ever get them ever, they're doing it because it's a bare minimum expected of someone in power, and because it's still very easy to get them if you do need them or want them as the point of a gimmick. Because they want you to actually interact with them in some way before you steal the most powerful singular item on the ship. Adversity is fun. Failing while trying something difficult until you figure it out is fun. Taking things as they go and adapting is fun. Being handed every tool you could ever want so that you can have near-ultimate power over a round as if antags don't already have that with their uplinks is boring. It's the equivalent of turning on Minecraft creative mode and just building a castle for security to attack while flying and invincible instead of gathering the materials while they're looking for you.

Edited February 24, 2024 by OolongCow

[Susan]

It is not the responsibility or the job of the crew to unnecessarily hobble themselves to make it easier for antags to put together whatever they're trying to do. I can't grasp this argument; the captain's spare identification, the nuclear authentication disk, hell, even the armory - you could ask why we lock up guns, why any piece of necessary gear is put behind a restricted airlock or locker - because an antag might need it. Well, if he might need it, by all means.

Securing high-value and high-risk items is completely within the bounds of logic, especially considering how many times the Horizon has been attacked, blown up, invaded, or otherwise infiltrated. This isn't a pleasure cruise, it is a high-security phoron exploration vessel that has only recently even been boarded by a massive group of hostile terrorists and has a long and bloody history where security protocols should be in place for a reason. Your gimmick should not be entirely predicated on having all access, and I can't fathom one where it is explicitly required, or you just throw your hands up and quit.

[Sniblet]

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As opposed to the fun RP generated by having to figure out a way to get those items?

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you could ask why we lock up guns

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Being handed every tool you could ever want so that you can have near-ultimate power over a round as if antags don't already have that with their uplinks is boring.

I never said that the vault, armory, captain's office, etc should be open access. Please try to understand what I said above, I wouldn't like to repeat it again. I will do it once more, simply, because I know I tend to overexplain and wander off topic and lose my own point.

It's cool and good to want your secure stuff secure. It's not so cool if securing them can trip someone up to the point of making their goal 100% unachievable (because you hid the item). Spawning the spare ID in a fixed secure storage structure of some kind like in every other server that matters would be cool. It's not so cool if you put the spare ID in a briefcase and hide that briefcase in your locker and leave no indication as to where your spare ID is so that antags must guess (even if it's an easy guess) or fail. This extends to all secure items.

Edited February 24, 2024 by Sniblet

[OolongCow]

On 23/02/2024 at 21:56, Sniblet said:

It's cool and good to want your secure stuff secure. It's not so cool if securing them can trip someone up to the point of making their goal 100% unachievable (because you hid the item). Spawning the spare ID in a fixed secure storage structure of some kind like in every other server that matters would be cool. It's not so cool if you put the spare ID in a briefcase and hide that briefcase in your locker and leave no indication as to where your spare ID is so that antags must guess (even if it's an easy guess) or fail. This extends to all secure items.

I understand that, but I'm of the opinion that there is no world where an antag absolutely needs these items that isn't covered by existing uplink items, other than them being the end goal of a gimmick, in which case it should be expected of you to actually interact with the captain. Either to rob them or question them about its location. Antagonism isn't about the end goal, it's about the journey getting there. It's why the standards of "winning" here are "did everyone have fun?" and not "did the antag accomplish their goal?" If you get the spare or disk or whatever without interacting with anyone, that's just boring for the crew. It doesn't matter that you intend to involve them later, they're going to be unhappy that they didn't realistically have a chance to interact with you before that, and that you didn't really take any kind of risk due to OOC expectations placed on them.

Additionally, having a wrench thrown into your plans can be fun. Adapting what you're doing to the round you're in and the players in it can be fun. You might have intended to take the spare for a gimmick, but if you don't find it, you can always pivot to making getting the spare your main goal, with what you originally intended being a pipedream down the line. Set up an interrogation chamber to question the captain about its location. Disguise yourself and mug them. Perform sneaky espionage and start deducing where you think it might be. Playing antag is risky and scary and always has a chance to go badly. I like owning up to that and having opportunities to be smarter than the crew, or have them outsmart me. Removing a really fun layer of cat and mouse with an unwieldy administrative decision would suck.