Replace the Horizon's Cargo Shuttle with a Cargo Elevator

[Butterrobber202]

The Horizon's ultimate purpose is exploration. For that reason, to cement its ability to operate in deep space independently of SCC Cargo Relays and Sector Command, the Cargo Shuttle should be replaced with a Cargo Elevator that draws out requested items from a off-map "Deep Storage" site, similar to how Colonial Marines does it.

In this new system, the "price" of the items we draw out of the Budget comes out of the Department Account as usual, as the SCC tries to limit how much supply is used per shift. In a sense, each department has 10,000 credits worth of emergency supplies to draw up from Storage on a shift to shift basis. If crew want a specific item, they basically just pay the SCC to draw some of its stock out of storage and transfer ownership to them.

In this new System, bounties would need to be adjusted to be facilitated by the Orion Package Delivery System, but that is the only hold up I see for now.

[party]

21 minutes ago, Butterrobber202 said:

In this new System, bounties would need to be adjusted to be facilitated by the Orion Package Delivery System, but that is the only hold up I see for now.

I'm tired so forgive me if I'm misreading: by this, do you mean all bounties would need to be delivered off-ship?

[Dreamix]

I think a cargo elevator would be very very nice, and I agree with this suggestion.

I think cargo bounties could just be moved to "deep storage", to be delivered later, by next shift or something, so they don't need any special new mechanics or code.

Edited March 20, 2024 by Dreamix

[Sniblet]

This trades one unrealistic aspect of ops for another. Why would you have a limit on emergency supply use if that equipment is already Horizon property and getting it up to the work deck is cheap-as-free? If Horizon needs those 15 extra shotguns lest Einstein steals the entire ship, a hard budget is only going to ensure a total loss of assets.

[Dreamix]

The same question applies to current cargo shuttle. Why does that Orion Express outpost ask for money and won't just send us those 15 extra shotguns? Do they not care about Einstein stealing Horizon? Are we not part of the same organization?

But like. During events staff send more stuff on the cargo shuttle anyways, circumventing the ship's accounts and budget. Like during (iirc) the sol pirate events, they sent like lots and lots of ammo, but I'm sure there are other examples too.

 

I imagine the elevator and budget to be more of a soft limitation for standard operation - budget that was allocated only to that specific shift. Can always fax CC to expand the budget, but that invites HRA to come in looking and investigating as to why did the OM buy 500 pizza boxes in this shift alone.

There's also no reason as to why staff or event runners couldn't expand the budget for events (or... reduce it, or limit it somehow).

[Carver]

I’ll support this if it doesn’t include a body deletion pit lmao.

As for budget concerns, Command can already put an incredible amount of money forth (in terms of what can be ordered) between department budgets, their personal accounts and even the vault if need truly be. I’m not concerned for logical limitations when it’s not terribly difficult to bypass it with some effort in an emergency.

[Fluffy]

I agree with Sniblet here, it's far easier to just shrug up the "not providing things for free" if we imagine some middle of the line external warehouse contractor that won't send it over unless paid or whatever BS we can come up with, over the things already being here but we can't take them for "budget reasons" (but why would anyone care if we do? If they're stealing the whole ship, those things would be lost anyways, they're already in the ship!)

Also, there's things that would have not much sense to bring around in the ship storage, like an entire singulo engine assembly, reservist Solarian equipment and whatnot

[Butterrobber202]

2 hours ago, Fluffy said:

I agree with Sniblet here, it's far easier to just shrug up the "not providing things for free" if we imagine some middle of the line external warehouse contractor that won't send it over unless paid or whatever BS we can come up with, over the things already being here but we can't take them for "budget reasons" (but why would anyone care if we do? If they're stealing the whole ship, those things would be lost anyways, they're already in the ship!)

Also, there's things that would have not much sense to bring around in the ship storage, like an entire singulo engine assembly, reservist Solarian equipment and whatnot

I think it would be better if we culled non-SCC equipment and had deep storage if that's going to be a hang up. If the Horizon is ever to explore space beyond that of the established Spur or deep Frontier space, it needs to have its own storage reserves. Bluespace Travel is fast, but its not teleport between known and unknown space fast. I believe the mechanics should reflect the state of the lore where possible, and this is a situation where it is certainly makes more sense to have an elevator, given the Horizon's express purpose.

The budgets exist purely to try and limit spending in non-emergency shifts. Captains and Executive Officers have access to special Horizon account with double the amount of money in it to move about for that express purpose.

[Fluffy]

25 minutes ago, Butterrobber202 said:

I think it would be better if we culled non-SCC equipment and had deep storage if that's going to be a hang up. If the Horizon is ever to explore space beyond that of the established Spur or deep Frontier space, it needs to have its own storage reserves. Bluespace Travel is fast, but its not teleport between known and unknown space fast. I believe the mechanics should reflect the state of the lore where possible, and this is a situation where it is certainly makes more sense to have an elevator, given the Horizon's express purpose.

The budgets exist purely to try and limit spending in non-emergency shifts. Captains and Executive Officers have access to special Horizon account with double the amount of money in it to move about for that express purpose.

Honestly, I would rather have cargo not available if we're in some uncharted space (which seems unlikely we ever will go to, sadly, due to the lack of content), over having it coming from some storage and losing things we have available to purchase, personally

Also, double the amount of money isn't unlimited access, it's just more money to buy things

[Butterrobber202]

1 hour ago, Fluffy said:

Honestly, I would rather have cargo not available if we're in some uncharted space (which seems unlikely we ever will go to, sadly, due to the lack of content), over having it coming from some storage and losing things we have available to purchase, personally

Also, double the amount of money isn't unlimited access, it's just more money to buy things

I believe that it is an insane take to say that it is preferable to have 0 cargo than slightly more limited deep storage cargo. It would completely invalidate the department during any deep space explorations the lore team may be interested in sending the Horizon on. The Horizon doesn't need Solarian surplus in its storage to function. Any item that is replaced does have a perfectly acceptable SCC sourced replacement.

[Fluffy]

26 minutes ago, Butterrobber202 said:

I believe that it is an insane take to say that it is preferable to have 0 cargo than slightly more limited deep storage cargo. It would completely invalidate the department during any deep space explorations the lore team may be interested in sending the Horizon on. The Horizon doesn't need Solarian surplus in its storage to function. Any item that is replaced does have a perfectly acceptable SCC sourced replacement.

On the "It would completely invalidate the department during any deep space explorations the lore team may be interested in sending the Horizon on":

No, it doesn't, you have the roundstart things to sort out in the warehouse, and mining have mining to do, it is quite rare for what I saw that anything gets ordered most of the time, you also have the courier things to do that were added recently, and the Machinist have his normal gameplay loop, to say that it would completely invalidate the entire department just because the shuttle is unavailable is just, incorrect.

 

I'm also not sure why you're focusing only on the Solarian surplus gear? I have indicated other things, like the singulo engine, that it would not make sense to have in this storage, as well as issues with the budget and justifying why we don't pull out a bunch of sniper rifles from this deep space cargo when we hit code red, etc., it's not just a matter of replacing some gear with an equivalent one from the SCC, if that was the only issue, it would not even be worth mentioning. Do we have a pile of protohumans in storage? Why do we have nice weapons only in storage, instead of where you'd want them to be for an emergency, the armory? And so on and so forth; it's not just an issue of swapping some gear with a differently labeled one and call it a day.

[Butterrobber202]

11 hours ago, Fluffy said:

On the "It would completely invalidate the department during any deep space explorations the lore team may be interested in sending the Horizon on":

No, it doesn't, you have the roundstart things to sort out in the warehouse, and mining have mining to do, it is quite rare for what I saw that anything gets ordered most of the time, you also have the courier things to do that were added recently, and the Machinist have his normal gameplay loop, to say that it would completely invalidate the entire department just because the shuttle is unavailable is just, incorrect.

 

I'm also not sure why you're focusing only on the Solarian surplus gear? I have indicated other things, like the singulo engine, that it would not make sense to have in this storage, as well as issues with the budget and justifying why we don't pull out a bunch of sniper rifles from this deep space cargo when we hit code red, etc., it's not just a matter of replacing some gear with an equivalent one from the SCC, if that was the only issue, it would not even be worth mentioning. Do we have a pile of protohumans in storage? Why do we have nice weapons only in storage, instead of where you'd want them to be for an emergency, the armory? And so on and so forth; it's not just an issue of swapping some gear with a differently labeled one and call it a day.

Yes, it does. Operations' main purpose for existing is its ability to supply the Horizon with special equipment or equipment refills when the situation calls for it. Mining is the other big half of the Operation wheelhouse, but everything besides that is effectively filler.

Then the Singlou stuff can be removed. It doesn't make sense for a ship to utilize a Singlou engine anyway.

As to your other points, we do draw sniper rifles out of storage/Cargo Shuttles when we need them, if antags are proving rather difficult or there is an ongoing dangerous event. Why wouldn't we have a pile of protohumans in cryo storage for medical/science usage? The emergency weapons are there just for that, emergencies. All the "special weapons" are in storage because they are hyper-lethal and Officers do not need them for day-to-day operations. Even if you don't like that arguement, we're currently doing that exact thing right now. The "good special weapons" (the zavodskoi las-rifles) are in the crew armory, not Sec's armory.

I think these issues are being blown up in proportion. They are not very big issues at all and not out of line of the "believably" we already maintain on the Horizon.

[Mr.Popper]

I realize I'm late to the party and I'm not a cargo player but I'll dump my 2 cents. There are some good points made for this suggestion, even if I think the negative baggage associated with it isn't worth it, so let's start there.

With its (de jure) role as a deep space vessel, it makes sense for Horizon to have stockpiles of goods to stay operational. The cargo shuttle may make sense in times like Synthetic Nightmares where the ship is a hop and a skip away from a neighboring corporate base to make/take deliveries, but it's unfeasible in the long run if the ship is to ever move into truly alien territory. With that being said... when is Horizon going to be in "deep space"? It certainly isn't right now while the ship is flying around running errands in colonized space, and it won't be in the near future with the unfinished storyline of Nightmares and the (presumed) downtime right after. That fact alone makes this issue extremely low priority and it should instead be dealt with when it becomes relevant. I think developers should focus on more pressing matters like the ongoing story arc and the lacking content in certain everyday mechanics (research department).

As for the theoretical issue of the cargo shuttle having to operate at ludicrous range and speed, because there is a lore issue there, I don't think writing it off as an elevator to a storage area is the way to go. Besides the issues others have already pointed out, namely the stakes-shattering situation of Horizon being deprived of critical resources because it can't access its own warehouse, I am not a fan of any lore revisions that make Horizon as a ship anymore cracked than it already is. You may have heard the term "Mary Sue ship" thrown around before, used to describe space ships in sci-fi that are ridiculously powerful and capable of doing anything with no drawbacks. I believe Horizon is dangerously close to falling under this label and changes like this only close that gap. Why does Horizon need a gigantic storage level, presumably staffed exclusively by Amazon warehouse robots, when there is already a warehouse on the in-game work deck for that explicit purpose? Neither situation is perfect, but ultimately I prefer the compromise of an abnormally fast shuttle over adding more unnecessary and unseen space to bloat Horizon's size and damage its believability.

[Butterrobber202]

5 hours ago, Mr.Popper said:

snipped

For the Dev Focus comment, things like research overhauls and the like that you believed should be focused on do not materialize out of thin air. People suggest, discuss and devs appear and weigh in. Dev priority has been a relatively low factor in the suggestions box. This thread can sit for ages if it means it gets added eventually.

The Horizon is one of the most, if not the most, advanced ships in the Spur. Despite, this the Horizon is not a Mary Sue ship. Its express purpose is exploration, and deep storage is directly in line with that purpose. As far as the Horizon being "overpowered" goes, it is an incredibly ineffective warship. The Levi offers the Horizon incredibly awesome attacking power as a deterrent to being attacked. The Horizon's wide and whale like design is about the worst shape you can have for a warship, which tracks since the Horizon is not one.

The whims of the lore team are their secrets. If we had a deep space arc planned, I would not be at liberty to divulge it here. That said, the Horizon's situation can change drastically from arc to arc. The current arc should have little bearing when discussing the needs of the future one.

Spoiler

when there is already a warehouse on the in-game work deck for that explicit purpose?

It does not do the suggested explicit purpose. The Surface Warehouse spawns RNG gear. Deep Storage would replace the Cargo Shuttle.

Spoiler

compromise of an abnormally fast shuttle over adding more unnecessary and unseen space to bloat Horizon's size and damage its believability.

It is long standing policy that the state of the server should reflect the lore where possible. Between the two options and the fact even the fastest Bluespace Drives for shuttles one take actual months to travel between deep space and civilized space, I believe deep storage is the better option.

[MattAtlas]

9 hours ago, Mr.Popper said:

That fact alone makes this issue extremely low priority and it should instead be dealt with when it becomes relevant. I think developers should focus on more pressing matters like the ongoing story arc and the lacking content in certain everyday mechanics (research department).

Development focus is not considered for suggestions because if we were to work only on what was 100% absolutely needed we would retire two months into becoming a developer. We have our own fun projects we'd like to embark on and these suggestions are usually where they come from.

In case there's a very pressing need for something then I assign developers to it, but don't worry about that kind of stuff.

[Mr.Popper]

12 hours ago, Butterrobber202 said:

For the Dev Focus comment, things like research overhauls and the like that you believed should be focused on do not materialize out of thin air. People suggest, discuss and devs appear and weigh in. Dev priority has been a relatively low factor in the suggestions box. This thread can sit for ages if it means it gets added eventually.

 

8 hours ago, MattAtlas said:

Development focus is not considered for suggestions because if we were to work only on what was 100% absolutely needed we would retire two months into becoming a developer. We have our own fun projects we'd like to embark on and these suggestions are usually where they come from.

 

Fair enough. I don't know much of anything about the developer process and I'm sorry if it came off like I was telling them how to do their job, I have no clue what coding/mapping is like nor how labor for stuff like story arcs is divided. There are several suggestions already out there that offer great improvements for the server's core gameplay loops which I hope are considered before anything to do with the cargo shuttle, but at the end of the day it's at the discretion of the devs and that's fine. 

 

12 hours ago, Butterrobber202 said:

The Horizon is one of the most, if not the most, advanced ships in the Spur. Despite, this the Horizon is not a Mary Sue ship. Its express purpose is exploration, and deep storage is directly in line with that purpose. As far as the Horizon being "overpowered" goes, it is an incredibly ineffective warship. The Levi offers the Horizon incredibly awesome attacking power as a deterrent to being attacked. The Horizon's wide and whale like design is about the worst shape you can have for a warship, which tracks since the Horizon is not one.

I don't exactly consider Horizon to be a Mary Sue ship. On paper (or the wiki) it has reasonable constraints compared to other ships in the Spur, and as you pointed out the more outlandish capabilities are easy to write off as situational or experimental. The Mary Sue vibes mostly come from mechanics and non-canon events outside of the lore team's control: being the most powerful ship in any given sector (only because none of the ghost roles fly large warships), the engineering department buffing the ship well above its canonical specifications, the JPMorgan and McDonalds crew repelling "elite" soldiers with ease, etc. None of this is indicative of the ship's actual abilities but constantly seeing it round to round inevitably leads to misconceptions, conscious or not. Therefore I think it would be better to err on the side of caution when adding to the list of what Horizon can do. Writing throwaway specs like "the ship has a giant automated storage area no one can see and that's where we get everything we need" will only legitimize this misconception and needlessly stretch suspension of disbelief.
 

12 hours ago, Butterrobber202 said:

It does not do the suggested explicit purpose. The Surface Warehouse spawns RNG gear. Deep Storage would replace the Cargo Shuttle.

Of course, mechanically we're talking about two very different things, I just dislike making significant parts of Horizon offscreen. Residential is an exception because it's our OOC headspace and would contribute nothing by being playable. But the ship's storage? Why would we want to move that off of the occupational deck, rendering actual in-game locations like the warehouse and technical storage secondary to an imaginary area? Mechanically the warehouse is really just where random junk gets sorted, but its lore purpose is to be the ship's primary storage area and that would be lost in this change.
 

13 hours ago, Butterrobber202 said:

It is long standing policy that the state of the server should reflect the lore where possible. Between the two options and the fact even the fastest Bluespace Drives for shuttles one take actual months to travel between deep space and civilized space, I believe deep storage is the better option.

I agree with you that it's a problem I just disagree on how to fix it. Since I've already wasted a lot of time critiquing other people's solutions I'll be constructive with my own:
What if the cargo shuttle was replaced by an experimental industrial-size teleport pad? It's in line with Horizon's scientific duties in testing new technology, and while I'm not 100% on how teleportation works in-game vs in-lore I think most people would accept some technobabble about quantum entanglement and Bluespace. Give it some strict limitations like not being able to transport lifeforms and having an uplink with only one location (presumably an outpost somewhere) and you've replaced both of the shuttle's roles while adding some interesting sciencey flavor. This isn't a perfect idea by any means and I don't know how the lore team would feel about the technological implications, but I'm just spitballing. There's a fix out there without any of these shortcomings, we just need to be creative.

[Butterrobber202]

1 hour ago, Mr.Popper said:

I agree with you that it's a problem I just disagree on how to fix it. Since I've already wasted a lot of time critiquing other people's solutions I'll be constructive with my own:

What if the cargo shuttle was replaced by an experimental industrial-size teleport pad? It's in line with Horizon's scientific duties in testing new technology, and while I'm not 100% on how teleportation works in-game vs in-lore I think most people would accept some technobabble about quantum entanglement and Bluespace. Give it some strict limitations like not being able to transport lifeforms and having an uplink with only one location (presumably an outpost somewhere) and you've replaced both of the shuttle's roles while adding some interesting sciencey flavor. This isn't a perfect idea by any means and I don't know how the lore team would feel about the technological implications, but I'm just spitballing. There's a fix out there without any of these shortcomings, we just need to be creative.

If we unlock the ability to pinpoint teleport stuff across vast distances, why is phoron important for commerce? Teleportation has only ever worked in the short-range for almost every single faction in the Spur, simply because it was invalidate too many other things if it worked otherwise.

[FlamingLily]

I don't have particularly strong opinions on this topic (though I do think out of the two options, the deep storage elevator feels a bit more handwavey than a cargo shuttle), but what if we simply reflavoured the cargo shuttle to instead be trading with local trader outposts? For instance, while we're here in Konyang, maybe we're not buying everything directly from the SCC, maybe most of it is coming from Konyang companies? Maybe we're buying engineering supplies from PACHROM, and similar such ideas. Of course, in Konyang there's still hefty SCC presence, but if we're out deep, near Assunzione, or in nations with less widespread SCC presence such as the Hegemony or Dominia, maybe we're buying from their local companies?

[Butterrobber202]

2 hours ago, FlamingLily said:

I don't have particularly strong opinions on this topic (though I do think out of the two options, the deep storage elevator feels a bit more handwavey than a cargo shuttle), but what if we simply reflavoured the cargo shuttle to instead be trading with local trader outposts? For instance, while we're here in Konyang, maybe we're not buying everything directly from the SCC, maybe most of it is coming from Konyang companies? Maybe we're buying engineering supplies from PACHROM, and similar such ideas. Of course, in Konyang there's still hefty SCC presence, but if we're out deep, near Assunzione, or in nations with less widespread SCC presence such as the Hegemony or Dominia, maybe we're buying from their local companies?

again, the entire purpose of this suggestion is to give the Horizon the appearance in lore it can operate WITHOUT relying on any outposts/trading stations for a significant amount of time. This solution does not resolve the presented issue in the topic.