Two Detectives

[Kane]

Add another detective slot. It creates possibility for roleplay, by adding more variety, another character to a round that may not be there otherwise - some characters are exclusively detectives, and only enjoy that role. Another detective allows for faster processing, may prevent people from dropping out of a round because the detective is unable to get to them, can create a unique and fun 'good cop, bad cop' dynamic (among others?), and allows another player to have fun with a slot that is currently limited, and can introduce alike characters who may otherwise never interact. Here is a map I threw together: http://gyazo.com/65c3b53702b09d8548a3ffdb93321653

Please give feedback on this idea, and tell me why you love/hate or feel apathy for my suggestion.

EDIT: Updated for new mapping/bluesec

Edited May 18, 2015 by Guest

[canon35]

BestRP had two detectives with the same gear, this way they could investigate 2 areas at once, or work together as a team on cases. Besides the people joining for the gun, it worked out pretty well. We should at least try this.

[Carver]

I'd agree with this suggestion if we didn't already have CSI already, essentially, filling the slot of the 'Second Investigative Role'.

[Frances]

I don't really have an issue with it, if you're not afraid it might get a bit crowded.

We'd probably want to open another CSI slot to make it fair, and at that point, you can end up with four investigative personnel, which is, like... a lot? I also get that there's a lot of cases to solve, and things can get pretty hectic on the station, but as a HoS it's hard enough to keep track of cases from 1-2 investigators along with all the other security stuff.

Anyway, I haven't played detective/CSI in a while, so I'll leave others with more experience to speak about whether they think this would be a problem or not.

[Baka]

I'd agree with this suggestion if we didn't already have CSI already, essentially, filling the slot of the 'Second Investigative Role'.

 

Seconded.

[Guest]

I'd agree with this suggestion if we didn't already have CSI already, essentially, filling the slot of the 'Second Investigative Role'.

 

Seconded.

 

Thirded. I imagine we can work something out, at least, in the end? Two detectives and one CSI isn't awfully overpopulating the department, anyway, even with a full roster of sec officers, cadets and a HoS.

[Jamini]

Thirded. I imagine we can work something out, at least, in the end? Two detectives and one CSI isn't awfully overpopulating the department, anyway, even with a full roster of sec officers, cadets and a HoS.

 

Really gonna disagree. Security is quite often full to capacity. Adding more slots to sec in any way will just saturate an over-saturated department even more.

[Guest]

I think adding another revolver might effect game balance, after taking into account how trigger-happy detectives are. So, I would be against this.

As always, heads of staff are free to promote aditional people for some roles. Players who want to play dual detectives can always join in as cadets or assistants, then ask to be assigned as detectives.

[Guest]

If you're worried about job slots here is the total job slots available per department

Engineering:11

Security:11

Science:12

Medical:12

Cargo:6

I think they are quite balanced, adding more slots because a lot of people like to play the roles can be solved by IC methods.

[Guest]

I think adding another revolver might effect game balance, after taking into account how trigger-happy detectives are. So, I would be against this.

As always, heads of staff are free to promote aditional people for some roles. Players who want to play dual detectives can always join in as cadets or assistants, then ask to be assigned as detectives.

 

The issue with moar lethal dakka is immediately solved with suspending the stupidhead that doesn't understand their gun is fully loaded with actual live ammunition.

Nothing would really change in that aspect. If a detective starts going around shooting people without any real reason to do so, they're going to get dunked on by command.

[K0NFL1QT]

I was just thinking about this and the fact that Detectives have CSI access again, and vice versa. The Detective is still a very undefined role. Their primary purpose is to be part of Sec, but without the responsibility of an Officer so that they are free to wander around and investigate, which is a necessary function of Security.

That's pretty much the exact purpose of the Forensic Tech too. The difference is that a Detective has the only standard lethal weapon on the station. 90% of all Detectives I've seen act as if they're just a 'Forensic Technician with a Gun', fully competent in law enforcement, interrogation techniques, forensic analysis and cadaver exploration.

Quoting myself for relevance;

...most people presume a Detective is just as qualified for forensic analysis as the Crime Scene Investigator. This is not true, due to the differing paths of education/training it takes to become either, and the investment of time it takes to achieve these qualifications.

To be a Detective, most countries require you to first be a uniformed officer and then take an examination, or attend a course through some law academy, to qualify for promotion. This is probably why they're allowed a lethal weapon; because they are essentially officers who have skills greater than simple enforcement and display good deductive reasoning. In SS13 the Detectives role is largely that of interrogator, and when they have no-one to question they should be out snooping around the station.

A CSI, or more commonly a Forensic Scientist, is a highly academic position that requires degrees in forensic analysis. The analysis of cadavers requires a degree in forensic pathology, so most CSIs should be medically trained. These qualifications take several years to achieve, which is time not spent as an officer and vice versa.

 

My recommendations;

• Re-remove Detective/CSI access to emphasize the distinctive difference in the roles.
• Get rid of the Detective completely and add a second CSI slot instead. Give the Detectives office over to the IAA and have the interrogations handled either by the arresting officer, the Warden or IAA if necessary.

[Jamini]

I say we do something radical!

Let's remove the detective entirely from security, Like he was in the old days, and move him over to the civilian side of things. Essentially, make him more of a private investigator under the domain of the HOP and Captain. (While we are at it. Axe the CSI role entirely and move their equipment over to the no-longer-security detective. Hell, if we want two slots with different alt-titles that would be great!)

Honestly. Security isn't intended to be hunting antagonists. They are not policemen, they are private security (and sometimes a private military). Their job is to maintain order and ensure regulations are followed. Human resources (IAA and Detective) are really the people on-station who should be investigating if people are doing OTHER things that the company might not like (but are still legal). Let's give the civilian sector more stationwide push and teeth, and move security back to a responder-style role.

[SgtSammac]

I say we do something radical!

Let's remove the detective entirely from security, Like he was in the old days, and move him over to the civilian side of things. Essentially, make him more of a private investigator under the domain of the HOP and Captain. (While we are at it. Axe the CSI role entirely and move their equipment over to the no-longer-security detective. Hell, if we want two slots with different alt-titles that would be great!)

Honestly. Security isn't intended to be hunting antagonists. They are not policemen, they are private security (and sometimes a private military). Their job is to maintain order and ensure regulations are followed. Human resources (IAA and Detective) are really the people on-station who should be investigating if people are doing OTHER things that the company might not like (but are still legal). Let's give the civilian sector more stationwide push and teeth, and move security back to a responder-style role.

 

Actually.... I like this idea and would be interested to see how it pans out. As long as they don't get the revolver plz

[K0NFL1QT]

There is a Civilian investigator. It's the journalist.

[Tainavaa]

I like Jamini's idea. I've never thought of the security force as being spess police but just as a security detail to ensure station operations aren't disrupted.

CHANGE. UP. EVERYTHING.

The journalist is a different kind of investigator. That's a media reporter, not a real criminal investigator. Journalists are the ones that ASK the investigators about things they don't know, and then when the REAL investigators find out, they ask them again so that way they can twist the words and evidence in a way that gets them more viewers. Two completely different concepts.

[K0NFL1QT]

The investigator role needs to stay as part of Security specifically because they're the criminal investigator. The fact that they can't operate cell timers is enough of a pain in the ass that removing them from Security completely would make it even harder to play because you can't even walk in the front door and talk to the people who otherwise have the most information about station crime. And you wouldn't have access to Security records to check for crew with a prior history of criminal behavior. All you'd do is spend the shift trying to get someone from Sec to actually take you seriously, at all, in any way.

The CSI does everything the Detective does, but better and doesn't shoot people.

 

My recommendations;

• Re-remove Detective/CSI access to emphasize the distinctive difference in the roles.
• Get rid of the Detective completely and add a second CSI slot instead. Give the Detectives office over to the IAA and have the interrogations handled either by the arresting officer, the Warden or IAA if necessary.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

MY ENTIRE POST WAS DELETED IN BROWSER TIME-OUT

GAWDAMIT

I'll just, freakin', abridge version this. From a career detective player who loves it so much BUT CAN NEVER PLAYER IT BECAUSE THERE'S ONLY ONE SLOT AND SOMEONE ALWAYS TAKES IT THEN GOES SSD FOR F-

Making detective not security is a terrible, terrible, terrible idea. It makes them a journalist with no security access. How do I throw my case report in the HoS' smug face and make all the evidence neat and organized if I can't even get into the brig. Literally space yourself IRL Jamini - join the NASA space program, get your necessary training time, bring prestige to humanity by venturing into the endless void, then go "Houston it's time for rekt" and just open an airlock.

I'm conflicted between two positions. Detective is a p. lone wolf operation but I've had partners before and it was pretty fun. I will say that the turf wars over the office and gun will be unavoidable, so if all of sec is still going ballistic we might as well arm the second investigator too.

[Jamini]

The investigator role needs to stay as part of Security specifically because they're the criminal investigator.

 

This sums up your entire argument.

Except security aren't a police force.

I'm done here. Got a different idea that is off-topic. I'll be posting in another thread about it to avoid cluttering this one.

[Kane]

Post edited to reflect the map change.

[Guest]

My suggestion to add to yours:

 

 

Add a maintenance access airlock in the back, indicated by the green box. Detective's office should never be choked to one entrance/exit and should always have an area in maint to step out to have a smoke/getcompletelyfuckingwastedonbooze-break.

Move the newscaster up to the north wall, indicated by the lightgreen lozenge. It'd look weird with the maint airlock on the east wall.

Also, add a chair down by the computers. Indicated by the red lozenge.

[EvilBrage]

How about we throw in "neither detective gets a revolver" and see who still wants to put in this suggestion?

I say that because all I'm really seeing here is "I want the gun but someone else has it so let's have two guns." The crime scene investigator is indeed the second investigative role, and the only reason you'd remove him in favor of another detective is because you want to toss in more guns, which - as we'll quickly learn if the devs decide to put in ballisticurity - is a terrible idea. In fact, I can see myself quoting this entire paragraph in the ensuing complaint thread if this is actually implemented.

 

How do I throw my case report in the HoS' smug face and make all the evidence neat and organized if I can't even get into the brig?

 

The same way Internal Affairs does, I'd imagine. I'll admit that separating the detective from security would reinforce the fact that the detective is not a security officer with a revolver and a 20's crime drama themed outfit, nor is he meant to chase down and apprehend criminals.

 

The issue with moar lethal dakka is immediately solved with suspending the stupidhead that doesn't understand their gun is fully loaded with actual live ammunition.

Nothing would really change in that aspect. If a detective starts going around shooting people without any real reason to do so, they're going to get dunked on by command.

 

No, the issue with "moar lethal dakka" is the same issue I have with ballisticurity, "buffing the armory," and all those other ridiculous ideas - you're putting more pressure on the antagonists to manage to create something fun without getting shot, and then we'll have even more people crying "gank" than we do already because surprise will be the most common counter to a lethal ranged weapon.

[Kane]

Personally, though somewhat unrelated to this thread, I'm a fan of keeping the revolver, even adding another for a second detective, though I wouldn't feel much lack should the revolver be issued with less than lethal rounds, and even going so far as to remove the ability to mod it/chamber lethal ammo. It doesn't make much sense to me, with the upcoming(?) ballisticurity, that detectives would have lethal weapons while the offers get rubber bullets. Detectives aren't supposed to be hunting antags and gunning them down, right? The revolver is supposed to be for self-defense, where rubber rounds allow time to disable, call in, and hopefully get back-up from the officers, lethals kill off a potential lead.