Junlata - 1138

[Jamini]

BYOND Key: Jamini

Player Byond Key: 1138

Staff involved: Junlata, at least two nuke teams, the entire station

Reason for complaint: Multiple, ridiculously lethal, powergamey alpha-strikes as nukeop.

Essentially I have seen two nuke teams, fairly obviously led by Junlata perform a massively ganky alpha-strike on the entire station in nuke. Performing the following actions pretty much each time.

1. Breach and loot/destroy the armory in force.

2. Destroy cargo

3. Bumrush the bridge with the nuke in tow.

4. Immediately shoot down anyone in their path. Multiple instances of taking the heads of security officers to prevent cloning.

5. Seal off the bridge, force the AI core open. Destroy the AI.

6. Attempt to attack medical or kill anyone else in their path when the ERT is almost inevitably called.

7. Get mowed down by the multiple players they ganked who respawned as ERT.

Now, I'm fine with folks dying and stuff. But this level of ridiculous balls-to-the-wall violence is excessive even for me. Even in nuke on should expect a little restraint on the side of the ops. Intentionally alpha-striking and outright murdering security officers is just kind of shitty and powergamey. It's not interesting. In the case of the round yesterday, one of Delta's operatives even was waving a transfer bomb around the research outpost where multiple unarmed civilians had fled to avoid the fighting.

I've personally seen these teams, under Junlata, outright open fire on a team of engineers who had no idea they were even there until guns were fired. As much as one can say "It's nuke", and "It's not just delta"... this sort of thing? Do we really want it?

The point of antags is to make an interesting round. Not immediately set out to murder half the fucking crew.

Approximate Date/Time:

5/12/2015, 5:00pm

5/11/2015, primetime round

[Tainavaa]

The only thing that I might really see as a problem, is shooting ANYONE on sight. Which might be seen as murderboning. Otherwise, bravo. I want to see more of this.

[Guest]

I've never shot anyone on sight unless they had a weapon in their hand.

I've never waved around a bomb myself in proximity of civilans.

I've never advocated "shoot civvies on sight" policies unless I know they're a major threat. I dislike using bombs unless I had more than good reason to do so.

The issues you're outlying here are the fault of operatives that are outside of my control. Just because I'm the 'leader' of the nuke team does not mean I control personalities or the very things the new cops at my side in everything they do or say. Unfortunately, I cannot put a cap in their ass for being dumb as that's taking them out of the round for acting dumb. I offer guidance and actual objectives for the antags on the team to rally around and actually get some crazy chaotic antag shit done.

The mass murder fest was a result of security officers, mediborgs and chaplains alike taking up tasers and other stun gear/weapons against the nuke ops and getting rekt for being unprepared and not taking into account their own lives. It's not gank nor murderboning, they were in the wrong place at the wrong time yet on their own volition to do so. I cannot comment on engineers being fired upon, as I did not fire a single shot nor care. I reprimanded the idiot that did fire on unarmed engineers.

It's hardly powergaming when we hardly even focused on detonating the nuke once. We never followed through on that bluff nor did we plan to, OOCly.

Also, no. Nobody in medical got shot. I called another bluff to draw the ERT to the medbay to get shot themselves, because muh hero complex.

We got mowed down by the ERT because six people wanted murderbone revenge even though they were shot for being stupid. Yes, six people redeployed as ERT in one sitting. They came back into the game, half of the team swept themselves up due to splitting for nuke ops. 3 survived because they were doing their jobs elsewhere.

We forced the core open as the AI was spamming an emergency shuttle call. We wanted to keep the round going because no one likes it when your antag shenaniganry is cut short because everyone's panicking. We carded it and wiped it because it was still opposing us by giving out our locations.

The day or so before, I attempted to card Katana for RP purposes as the AI itself had a wanted notice on the Syndicate forum board. I also wanted to converse with it over an intelicard. I got mowed down by the security borg and the AI joining forces and managing to ambush me by stunning and then dragging me into the lethal turrets range. Basically, I didn't realize the secborg was still in the charger. I got taken by surprise. This was shortly after the ERT attempted to (and failed) rush the bridge without an idea on how well defended we were in the bridge. Deathsquad gets called later on and I get respawned in to mow down the nuke ops again.

I don't get it. Pretty much everyone had fun in both of these rounds. I never interacted with nor fired upon you either, so what's your beef? Was it because medical was threatened by a silver-tongued lie, and then suddenly that makes my antag play your business?

It's really easy to make alarmist accusations without understanding the context of the conflict (or either conflict, for that matter), I understand that.

You get why it's wrong, though?

You made some pretty str8 up funky assumptions that were hardly my own fault, and lacked context on both sides of the playing field for someone who is playing the round as either an EMT or a doctor. What you say here might've happened, but they didn't happen because Delta has a huge hard-on for shooting innocent doctors, engineers and kittens. A lot of what happened was very reactive. The people I shot and killed were ones that were direct threats to myself or to my team. Whoever the rest of the team shot up, I take no responsibility for unless they were registered hostiles that I marked for pacification. I wear thermals every single nuke round. I know exactly who I'm shooting and why I'm shooting them.

I was told by one of the admins last night that it was extremely impressive I was able to get so far with my team to even warrant a fucking deathsquad. They said it was outright amazing we even survived the ERT and constant onslaught of cloned security officers getting thrown back at us again.

[keinto]

In the case of the round yesterday, one of Delta's operatives even was waving a transfer bomb around the research outpost where multiple unarmed civilians had fled to avoid the fighting.

 

I was that OP acting on my own. I'm unsure whether you bring up the instance as a good or bad example. Which one is it?

On the subject of the round in question, the Nuke Ops did take a few hostages, like the HoP and the Chaplain, whom later I saw shooting back at the Nuke Ops with a taser, and probably got killed. They didn't just KoS.

The first 3 items in your list and number 5 are things that are completely acceptable for a mercenary round, in my opinion. Could Cargo have been disabled in a smarter way without killing three people in the process? Sure, but just listing "Destroy cargo" does not server any purpose other than to make your list longer.

Edit: Just read Shadowhunter's complaint against Enkas' Chaplain, who did indeed fight back and get killed after being handcuffed. What happened between those two events, I don't know.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Guest

[Frances]

If nuke ops don't loot the armory, they risk fighting the station's sec force armed with lethals.

If they don't disable cargo, they risk fighting the entire station armed with the guns cargo can order.

Sure, operatives can try to play on a different scenario by acquiring some sort of leverage (bomb, hostages, etc.) and hoping they can dissuade the station from taking offensive action. But otherwise, as far as disabling the station's systems, this is a pretty standard opening strategy, and does not preclude the operatives from creating a myriad of interesting situations afterwards.

The rest of what was named above, I'm not sure about. But I thought I'd state the reasons why so many operatives attack the armory and cargo - out of very valid OOC concerns, which don't really constitute powergaming to my knowledge.

[Alberyk]

About the heads, I removed some of them, but I was trying to exchange the heads for something else, so I was not planning to keep them just for the sake of it.

[Jamini]

Delta, Junlata was clearly the operative in control of both operations. It was clear from start to finish that she was the person calling the shots and controlling the team.

Both rounds were pulled off nearly-identically.

 

I've never shot anyone on sight unless they had a weapon in their hand.

 

Oh, so the injuries on Ysra and the other engineer who was shot by the laser were simply imagined then? I recall RUNNING from your team, and seeing multiple shots taken at a group of engineers who just past.

I strongly doubt that Jade/Voltage was pulling a Taser on you either, that's not how she ever rolls, Nevertheless, she was beheaded today. Or yesterday when I watched a Tajaran officer get mowed down by 9 bullets completely offscreen when she had nothing in her hand at all. In fact, pretty much any conflict I saw between operative and officer was pretty explicitly "Shoot them dead." Considering how heavily you removed security's ability to get equipment, outright murdering them was well in excess of the force needed.

Hell, frankly, I've seen other operative teams neutralize security while only needing to kill one or two of them. Then use the rest as hostages against the station. You didn't do that. You and your team blasted anyone you saw away.

You can try and sugarcoat it however you like. Your team on BOTH nights went full murderbone, with minimal to no real interaction to the crew but bullets and gunning straight for the throat as if we were on goon or something, where security actually CAN go raid the armory at roundstart and put up reasonable resistance.

My issue is that this was blatant power-gaming on the side of the ops, leading to a ridiculously bloody round on a HRP server. You didn't escalate, you didn't respond to force in kind. You blatantly went in full-cocaine with the intent to blow away as many people who might look at you sideways as possible.

Hell, your comments on the engineering militia threat even stated as such. That you, as an antagonist, would consider engineers to be free targets.

[Guest]

I'm confused as to your interpretation as to what should or shouldn't be acceptable on a heavy RP server. Deadly, blood-filled situations that this incident didn't even amount to in comparison, actually kind of happen in real life. But, whatever, that's me fighting fire with fire, the weapon being the causation = correlation logical fallacy.

Does "Heavy RP" mean "obligated to have less bloodiness and goriness because I said so" to you?

We didn't play to win, lol, we played to have fun. I saw maybe two people tops (including you) complain about what happened, last nuke round. And the other person was complaining for a completely different reason.

You have shown this attitude towards any sort of 'action' or in-game conflict before, and it shows in other threads. You have said things that make it look like you're trying to force a precedent for what Heavy RP should be in your mind (especially when that precedent isn't needed, like, wut?).

Why should I take you, or this complaint, seriously with that bias?

Because it looks like in the end, you just want that this method of playing nuke never be played again because you didn't like the outcome. QED, forcing a precedent.

[Jamini]

Actually it's funny, because normally I would agree that action is fine. I think you have me outright confused with someone else.

I have no issue with blowing away armed threats. I have no issue with responding to force, and threats of force, with an escalation.

My issue is this level of action, a play-to-win power-gamey mentality is just so readily apparent that it's sickening. There was no buildup, no tension. It was simply a goon-level operative rush on a station that legitimately has no means to defend itself against it without opening themselves to administrative action. Mind, I had brought up someone on security's side that seemed to be doing JUST that to administration prior to your attack.

You went into a station fully intending to blow everyone away. You interacted minimally with the crew, and blew away virtually everyone you ran into. Your teams outright ganked unarmed people in front of me. Twice.

That isn't good antag play. Not in any sense of the word. It' s akin to going traitor, buying a revolver and as much ammo as you can, and popping off heads with a double-taps.

Am I okay with violence and combat? Yes. I am. Am I okay with wordlessly slaughtering half the crew? Fuck no. Your teams did the latter not once, but twice. Two days in a row. THAT is my issue. Once I could possibly accept, but twice shows that you are clearly trending towards bloody, thoughtless, orgies of violence.

[Guest]

I attempted in engaging the crew in hostile-takeover-simulator-13, but the AI insistently hitting the call emergency shuttle button as well as spamming Message Central Command for an ERT really fucked shit up for us.

It was at that point where we were forced into having to seize and maintain control onboard the station as was our goal. We executed some pretty shitty means in order to do so, and I will admit I lost control of my own charges.

You have no idea how much I would love to clone myself four or five times and play with nuke ops with motives, personalities, objectives and RoEs extremely similar to myself so that we 1.) don't fuck up, 2.) Don't cause unnecessary casualties 3.) PLAY THAT FUCKING OBJECTIVE SO THAT IT'S ACTUALLY FUN FOR THE OPPOSING SIDE, TOO and 4.) Have fun while doing all of the above.

But that's highly unrealistic and the nuke dream team/repooblic commando gimmick will never happen.

I cannot, however, say within conscience that I take responsibility for the nuclear operatives that fired upon civilians/nonhostiles. I only had as much control over the team as they were willing to give me.

If I did fire upon or cause the death of an innocent civilian, then I take responsibility for that.

[Frances]

Well, nuke ops firing on civilians unprovoked is pretty serious (it's outright ganking). Isn't this something we should try to get more info on before we process this complaint either way? It doesn't seem like anyone has been able to address precisely what happened to who, or posted a possible reason why it might've happened.

A name was mentioned, Voltage's. Could it be possible to get him to drop into the thread, and maybe get the account of the other nuke ops and victims before we file this as ganking?

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

1138's playstyle was acceptable; efficiently killing threats is in no way gank, especially when ops only have one life when the crew get as many clonings as they can get as well as ERT spawning. The only thing in question is firing on the engineers, but it was specifically said by two ops now that 1138 had no part in ordering this done.

[Nik]

It's almost as if roleplay and combat based antags rarely mesh smoothly due to the god-awful nature of the game's combat

[VoltageHero]

A name was mentioned, Voltage's. Could it be possible to get him to drop into the thread, and maybe get the account of the other nuke ops and victims before we file this as ganking?

 

Right. Let me get in the point of view from at least a security officer. This isn't one of the ones that was running around with guns.

The armory have been blown up, so the HoS, because all the weapons were gone, went over to Cargo, and called me over. We were discussing what types of weaponry we needed, when suddenly the airlock for the mining dock went down. The AI said it was breached, and told everybody to leave the area. Just then, a Unathi CSI ran up, and while I was trying to get him to leave, the cargo bay blew up, killing him and sending me (as well as the HoS possibly?) into Red health.

As the HoS and I tried to drag the dead Unathi away, the Nuke Ops kept shooting as us, before cutting our heads off.

When asked later, Delta said that they blew up Cargo because they knew the HoS and security would be going there.

I have no idea how the other officers handled things during the rest of the time, but that's what I saw, first hand. No, I don't believe any of those officers have weapons out, but I could be wrong.

[Jamini]

especially when ops only have one life when the crew get as many clonings .

 

Ahem

 

4. Immediately shoot down anyone in their path. Multiple instances of taking the heads of security officers to prevent cloning.

About the heads, I removed some of them.

As the HoS and I tried to drag the dead Unathi away, the Nuke Ops kept shooting as us, before cutting our heads off.

 

You cannot clone a headless corpse.

We also had no geneticist in medbay, and all of one person had any idea how to clone at all after nearly twenty minutes of searching.

So no. They didn't get to get cloned much at all. Thank you very much.

Let's also not forget that medbay has a fairly effective limit on how many people they can clone without additional biomass.

And how militant some administrators are if they catch even an unfounded rumor that someone who isn't genetics trained is doing genetics.

This argument holds absolutely no water.

[Guest]

I only had as much control over the team as they were willing to give me.

 

And that's how it works for nuke teams. Either the team's okay with someone leading or they're not. And often, they commonly act on their own and go so far as detracting from the team objective and go shooting people up, whether or not I order them to.

If anything, whatever I "order" is merely a suggestion to many teams I've been a part of. They either do it or they don't.

I do not and have not condoned firing on civilians or security officers who do not have stun gear items in their hands.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Guest

[Jakers457]

Without being personal to anyone. But if we have the engineer militia, the occasional vigilante AI, hero complexes and all the apparently military trained civilians that I've encountered as antag. Nuke ops valuing their lives and actually wanting to succeed is justifiable to me. Though personally, when I go nuke, I just plan to rob or kidnap my cash cows from the station.

[Alberyk]

You cannot clone a headless corpse.

We also had no geneticist in medbay, and all of one person had any idea how to clone at all after nearly twenty minutes of searching.

So no. They didn't get to get cloned much at all. Thank you very much.

Let's also not forget that medbay has a fairly effective limit on how many people they can clone without additional biomass.

And how militant some administrators are if they catch even an unfounded rumor that someone who isn't genetics trained is doing genetics.

This argument holds absolutely no water.

 

Only Jade's head was taken in the first contact, the csi and the hos were left untouched by me. As I told before, I was only keeping one head with me and I was trying to trade it for another crew, so, I was not just doing it to keep them away from cloning. Also, I clearly remember throwing one head at medbay lobby.

I am not sure if any op attacked engineering, but I heard they were tring to set up emitters as defenses, which would have probably caused the burn damage.

[Frances]

As the HoS and I tried to drag the dead Unathi away, the Nuke Ops kept shooting as us, before cutting our heads off.

Whoever did this, this was not okay, was it?

I mean, cargo was bombed, people got injured as collateral (which is great, and helps further the ops' plans), but... shooting security to death simply because they're there? From an IC perspective, I can almost understand it, but from an OOC one, isn't that poor, poor form?

[Jamini]

I am not sure if any op attacked engineering, but I heard they were tring to set up emitters as defenses, which would have probably caused the burn damage.

 

IT was in the central corridor, just after the cargo breach. Both paramedics were moving towards the injured, we spotted your and ran.

Two engineers were fore of us in hardsuits. no weapons or emitters at all. Honestly they probably didn't know you were THERE.

One operative immediately opened fire on Ysra and the other engineer, continuing to fire lasers through the firelock I used to run out. Both myself and the other medic immediately evacuated the injured engineers for treatment.

It was very, very definitely an operative shooting. Not a bloody emitter.

 

Only Jade's head was taken in the first contact, the csi and the hos were left untouched by me. As I told before, I was only keeping one head with me and I was trying to trade it for another crew, so, I was not just doing it to keep them away from cloning. Also, I clearly remember throwing one head at medbay lobby.

 

At final count it was approximately five decapitated, two additional dead. Mind, these are officers who you had already deprived of all their weapons and were unarmored.

 

Without being personal to anyone. But if we have the engineer militia, the occasional vigilante AI, hero complexes and all the apparently military trained civilians that I've encountered as antag. Nuke ops valuing their lives and actually wanting to succeed is justifiable to me. Though personally, when I go nuke, I just plan to rob or kidnap my cash cows from the station.

 

I agree to a point. But I draw the line when it comes down to a team outright bum-rushing anyone and murdering them with little to no interaction. Twice in a row a team led by Junlata has done exactly that. Rushed directly at the bridge, murdering anyone who might possibly pose a threat with little to no roleplay. Regardless of Delta's intent, he was very obviously the person in control of both teams.

I will reiterate. I do not mind violence. I strongly feel that escalating a situation or responding to force with equal force in kind is fine . What was done here? This was essentially an outright gank with overpowered weapons with the sole intent of wiping out anyone who might bother to stand up to his team. Without any real roleplay or interaction with the crew except for bullets and lasers.

I do, strongly, object to instantly ratcheting up the violence to level 11 in an environment where it is not expected or suitable for a server based so heavily around role-play. Should nothing be done about this, you can guarantee that both sides will not only do this again, but that next time things will get much, much bloodier.

[Baka]

I would like to ask to halt discussion for a bit while we review this case.

We will get back to you today after said review with a response, thank you.

[Baka]

The staff has taken time to review this case, and this is our response on the matter. After going over the laws and testaments from the topic, we had found two things which set off flags to us, and we would like to discuss. Before I start though, I would like to add that Delta did not shoot at civilians, and we have it in the logs stating and show that to be true:

 

 

But on to the matter at hand,

Delta has bombed five security officers knowingly and willingly with the intent of wordlessly annihilating them, as seen in this screen shot of the logs here:

 

 

This was the first interaction with the station, and it started with killing five people without even them grasping what the situation was about or both sides knowing if they are a tangible threat ICly. This is classified as ganking, killing without proper escalation, and is heavily frowned upon our server.

There was also the case where Delta was taunting in ghost chat, saying inflammatory comments such as

 

 

Comments like this are not acceptable, taunting people who died from you is rude, and we have a rule against being a dick.

We would like to hear Delta’s input of the issue before we can reach a conclusion and resolution.

[Jamini]

Thank you for the logs. I'll retract the bit about shooting civilians as it was clear it wasn't delta and they had indeed ordered Elysium to stop shooting right after the fact.

Apologies for that.

[Guest]

I didn't realize I killed five people with that bomb. At most, I knew one or two was out in the hallway. I didn't anticipate everyone being so close to the corner/lobby area of cargo.

I also should've realized I should've kept my mouth shut during the entire affair. Everyone was yelling and screaming and it wasn't within my right to keep that going.

I accept any repercussions/punishment undertaken by the administration team, however.

[Baka]

I had discuss the resolution with 1138. The complaint is resolved and concluded. If you have any issue, please PM me.