Could we remove cloning?

[Frances]

Alright. Big gameplay change, with little effort required to implement (just remove cloning machines from the map and make it so you can't build them) - and since this is something that has been discussed several times over the past year, it would be nice to reach some sort of consensus, and proceed with implementation if people are receptive to the suggestion.

 

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Anyway, yes. Cloning. Its main purpose is to bring people back into the round once they've died. Like most other SS13 features, it was brought on as a fun gimmick in the original game (I actually don't know the full history), and was eventually adapted to Heavy-RP.

However, here is my (and what used to be several others') issue with cloning on HRP: it removes almost entirely the climax surrounding the death of a character. A person dies? They get cloned. You die? You get cloned. Even murderous antagonists have to go to extra lengths to ensure their targets can't get cloned, and when they succeed at destroying someone's body, the reaction isn't "oh, god, that person is dead" but "that person is dead and we can't even clone them!" Sometimes, it feels like the game doesn't feature "dying", it features "being cloned".

People are good at roleplaying a fear of death in living characters, but all the drama and delicious roleplay surrounding death itself is quasi-nonexistent. You do get some cool stuff such as the occasional CMD-reveal or clone angst, but as a whole, death is no big deal - you'll basically be back to work within 30 minutes.

What sort of pros and cons would we get from removing cloning? Let's look at them:

Pros

 

• -Saving someone from death acquires more meaning for others - there is an even bigger meaning and sense of urgency in saving critical patients, getting people to safety when they are wounded, and so on. Cause if you fail, you fail for good.
  
  
  
  -Death-heavy rounds are more dramatic - while when people currently die in droves most already don't get cloned, there would no longer be a notion that these people can be cloned or recovered later. They're just, gone, forever.
  
  
  
  -Deaths are more impactful. As an antag, killing the HoS would really send a message to the station that you are an unstoppable force hell-bent on destruction.
  
  
  
  -It opens up a lot of opportunities for death/grieving RP. Hold funerals and memorial services! Most of the emotions would be focused on the person having actually died, rather than "well, we should see if we can clone them."
  
  
  
  -It spares us from the awkward roleplay of "my coworker just got killed brutally and returned to work within 30 minutes and now I gotta act like nothing happened."
  
  
  
  -It's more about getting rid of the "idea" cloning brings than getting rid of cloning alone. Even if most people that die in a round don't get cloned, death doesn't feel final. It'd be a lot cooler if it did.
  
  
  
  -Did I already mention people fucking die? Yesssssss. How cool is that?

 

Cons

 

• -Dying for any reason would prevent you from playing your character again during that round.
  
  
  
  -Characters' deaths could no longer be kept canon without being final.
  
  
  
  -Cloning-related RP would no longer be possible on station (cloning could be kept in the lore as something more expensive/uncommon to preserve backstories involving clones).
  
  
  
  -Geneticists would lose a (small) part of their jobs.
  
  
  
  -People might simply not care about deaths anyway should they choose not to, as they already ignore other of the frequent-but-grisly SS13 happenings.

 

Overall, the biggest caveat that can't be circumvented is that if your character dies, they'd no longer be able to reintegrate the round. I personally feel like that's a small price to pay for the added realism of "permanent" (non-canon!) death, but I dislike being cloned as a whole and generally avoid it.

What I'd like to know is what people who regularly get cloned and reintegrate the round think of all this. Is this something you'd be willing to sacrifice for the roleplaying advantages the removal of cloning would offer?

Edited May 20, 2015 by Guest

[jackfractal]

At that point, and with the state of genetics on this server, just remove genetics entirely. Do what they did on Bay and just put in an empty space where it was with a sign of 'here lies genetics, long shall we mourn'.

I think this would be fine if it were possible to do more extreme measures in medbay to save people. Like a heart and lung machine, to keep people's brain alive during surgery, more efficient defibrillators, with a longer time for them to actually work, expanded cryo, a way to piece people back together again even if you're missing some of the pieces, like an organ printer.

That sort of thing.

Make it more about saving lives then uh... just giving them a new one.

[enkas]

Yes.. Meaningful deaths are something that I long for. Deaths that would make the close ones traumatized.. And that would possibly give more work to the chaplains.

[Susan]

This game is literally designed with tons of cheap instant death mechanics solely because cloning exists. There is a symbiotic relationship. It's so easy to die because it's easy to come back.

And you just want to remove one part of that equation.

No.

[keinto]

Yes to everything, except:

 

Geneticists would lose a (small) part of their jobs.

 

Just remove Geneticist from the station. They can stay in lore.

[jackfractal]

Might be interesting to see how often cloning is used versus how many times people die.

[Erik Tiber]

I would like it if, instead of the current setup, you allowed people to surgically remove the brain of a patient, print a new body, then place the brain into the new body. Brain damage means they have amnesia, keeping CMD, and you can include some debilitating gameplay effects or other.

I would personally like this. I do not think that current justifications for death are at all realistic and they are all easily circumvented. Scans are data. You can back that up. You can probably check them for integrity. You can do them multiple times in a single session. The idea that you can just, whoops, have one be corrupted out of nowhere, and then lose literally all logs, is extremely silly.

Allowing for surgical brain transfer allows for RP death, increases chance of unrecoverability in personnel too. And it means that you're actually trying to save the same person, rather htan letting them die, letting their still-living brain slowly rot and eat itself, and just making a new shiny replacement becuase that's easier. That's basically what you currently do in-game by deciding to clone rather than borg someone's brain. It's quite terrifying if you actually think about it. This option is not.

Alternatively, finally introduce prosthetic bodies.

Alternatively, if you must have a different gameplay experience, simply make it such that you can cryonically preserve a brain for future treatment at a later date, taking them out of the round but not RPly killing them.

Also, you should make it such that you inflict progressive brain damage over time, but portions of the brain can be either recovered or, past a certain damage point, replaced with prostheses.

At that point, and with the state of genetics on this server, just remove genetics entirely. Do what they did on Bay and just put in an empty space where it was with a sign of 'here lies genetics, long shall we mourn'.

I think this would be fine if it were possible to do more extreme measures in medbay to save people. Like a heart and lung machine, to keep people's brain alive during surgery, more efficient defibrillators, with a longer time for them to actually work, expanded cryo, a way to piece people back together again even if you're missing some of the pieces, like an organ printer.

That sort of thing.

Make it more about saving lives then uh... just giving them a new one.

This, absolutely this. I would love this. I would love it if my character's near death experience from their backstory could be reenacted in character.

The current health system makes people far, far, far too fragile. We could make it revolve around brain death. Introduce actual cryotherapy that cools down the body for extended periods and decreases damage over long periods (like 20 minutes or 10 minutes) after removal, like in current-day cryotherapy. We could also make it such that, say, it's more integrated and less arbitrary.

[Frances]

This game is literally designed with tons of cheap instant death mechanics solely because cloning exists. There is a symbiotic relationship. It's so easy to die because it's easy to come back.

And you just want to remove one part of that equation.

People are dying in droves, yes. But even from a HRP standpoint, how many of those people do get cloned, and are glad they got cloned simply because their death was stupid and they would've liked to keep playing in the round?

I won't say it ever happens (because it does), but outside of the times where you die as collateral to antags (in which case your chances of being cloned are relatively lower than usual due to antag shenanigans), you shouldn't die randomly a lot. Like, yes, a random virus kills you, or it's your first time playing in engineering and you release all the plasma/walk into the singulo. But after a year of playing, I can count on one hand the number of times I've died to [utter bullshit]. In general, if you play in a manner that requires daily cloning for you to be able to simply enjoy HRP, you're probably doing something wrong.

 

I would like it if, instead of the current setup, you allowed people to surgically remove the brain of a patient, print a new body, then place the brain into the new body.

This sounds more like a lore/new mechanic suggestion than anything else. Allowing characters to continue their round after dying in other ways (short of borging) does not address the problem this suggestion seeks to corner.

[nanotoxin]

Okay, what if we get greifed tho?

[jackfractal]

One possible thing to consider when thinking about extreme measures is time. It's sad to say, but half the time, I see people walk into medbay with, say, a broken arm and it would actually be faster for the Doctors to slit their throats and toss them in cloning then to try to heal them.

Cloning is fast, because while you're getting cloned you can't do anything. Any replacement for it, whatever it is, would have to be, maybe not AS fast, but fast enough not to cause all patients to SSD in the middle of being revived.

[Frances]

One possible thing to consider when thinking about extreme measures is time. It's sad to say, but half the time, I see people walk into medbay with, say, a broken arm and it would actually be faster for the Doctors to slit their throats and toss them in cloning then to try to heal them.

Cloning is fast, because while you're getting cloned you can't do anything. Any replacement for it, whatever it is, would have to be, maybe not AS fast, but fast enough not to cause all patients to SSD in the middle of being revived.

I am not proposing a replacement. I am proposing a removal of cloning altogether.

Do people find the dying rate of patients in medbay too high to justify this? I don't see people die in medbay a lot (unless they get killed by the bugged collapsed lungs).

[Serveris]

Okay, what if we get greifed tho?

 

Adminhelp it. Most staff would be happy to bring you back into the round after taking care of your griefer.

[jackfractal]

I am not proposing a replacement. I am proposing a removal of cloning altogether.

 

You're not proposing a replacement, I was speaking for people who were (like me). It's important to consider time spent inactive. Being a ghost is better then being asleep on a table.

[Erik Tiber]

This game is literally designed with tons of cheap instant death mechanics solely because cloning exists. There is a symbiotic relationship. It's so easy to die because it's easy to come back.

And you just want to remove one part of that equation.

People are dying in droves, yes. But even from a HRP standpoint, how many of those people do get cloned, and are glad they got cloned simply because their death was stupid and they would've liked to keep playing in the round?

I won't say it ever happens (because it does), but outside of the times where you die as collateral to antags (in which case your chances of being cloned are relatively lower than usual due to antag shenanigans), you shouldn't die randomly a lot. Like, yes, a random virus kills you, or it's your first time playing in engineering and you release all the plasma/walk into the singulo. But after a year of playing, I can count on one hand the number of times I've died to [utter bullshit]. In general, if you play in a manner that requires daily cloning for you to be able to simply enjoy HRP, you're probably doing something wrong.

 

I would like it if, instead of the current setup, you allowed people to surgically remove the brain of a patient, print a new body, then place the brain into the new body.

This sounds more like a lore/new mechanic suggestion than anything else. Allowing characters to continue their round after dying in other ways (short of borging) does not address the problem this suggestion seeks to corner.

That's what you're talking about anyway. And the concern is people not having death be final enough. Currently death is silly and makes no sense, it's almost always contrived whenever I see it happen at least. If you want death to have more impact, you make it more difficult to be ICly revived and make it more likely that you'll suffer consequences.

This does address that probolem.

[K0NFL1QT]

I like that cloning and genetics exist, both thematically and mechanically, so I'm absolutely against removing either. I could write a lengthy post explaining why, but I'll just summarize; no, it's a bad idea.

Your character is a clone of a clone of a clone. Accept it.

[Frances]

If you want death to have more impact, you make it more difficult to be ICly revived and make it more likely that you'll suffer consequences.

Except it's hard to design anything "difficult" to do in SS13. Either it's difficult until you learn how to do it and after that it's an absolute breeze, or it's difficult enough (low success chance, materials are hard to get) that it would still exist ICly/OOCly to make death feel "cheap", while having little to no gameplay impact (people don't even get to benefit from it).

 

I could write a lengthy post explaining why, but I'll just summarize; no.

:/

[K0NFL1QT]

Removing cloning won't make deaths any more meaningful for the characters, it'll just make deaths more inconvenient for the players removed from play.

[CrunchyCHEEZIT]

I agree whole-heartedly to this idea. It gives death more meaning and it gives people more meaning to do alot of things, like..

...dont go rambo on anything at all, ever and getting shot and saying "oh herp derp ill get cloned"

...actually get up off their ass and find a place to hide when people start screaming on comms instead of sitting in the bar and saying "oh herp derp ill get cloned"

...avoid accusing people and executing them without second thought and then, after finding out they are innocent, say "oh herp derp he can get cloned"

...being antag and killing someone but then realizing your efforts did fuck all because "oh herp derp he is gonna get cloned"

..."HERP DERP GET CLONED" moments in general

Not just cloning, either. No alternatives or any other super-special way to revive in the round. If you died for a legitimate reason and the admins tell you to bugger off after you say "im ded pls restart", then you are fucking dead and you and all of your friends should feel bad.

[Frances]

Removing cloning won't make deaths any more meaningful for the characters, it'll just make deaths more inconvenient for the players removed from play.

Just to make sure we're on the same page, are you saying deaths won't be more meaningful for the characters risking death themselves, or for the other characters witnessing someone's death?

[CrunchyCHEEZIT]

Removing cloning won't make deaths any more meaningful for the characters, it'll just make deaths more inconvenient for the players removed from play.

 

They deserve to get removed from play for stupid decisions. Just because this is a roleplay server does not remove the fact that THIS IS A GAME OF SURVIVAL. If you die, you arent innocent, you may just be bad at the game. If you feel the death was unjust, you ahelp it. This is how it works on all other servers and a fancy "Heavy Roleplay" title does not change the premise of the game, it just makes it have more words tied to it.

[Tainavaa]

At the very least I'm in full support of cloning being removed entirely.

I also like Erik's idea, but death has virtually no impact and even if cloning is available it's extremely difficult to care that someone died because they can just be potentially brought back at a later time.

Frances has a point about people dying constantly as well. I have not died for a bullshit reason in a long time. In fact I so very rarely die at all. If you're dying a lot, then I foresee one of a few reasons why.

1) What Frances said. What you're doing isn't very fitting for heavy roleplay.

2) You're bad at living. Get your life together. Literally. That is to say that you don't take proper safety precautions and the like.

3) You were griefed. Often times, I see admins rejuvenate players when this happens.

4) There was a good reason for it. Man up. Deal with it. Move on.

[nanotoxin]

There was a weak we had like 5-6 viro griefs. I ahelped it and everything, no rejuv or cloning. The bodies just sat there in viro.

[Erik Tiber]

If you want death to have more impact, you make it more difficult to be ICly revived and make it more likely that you'll suffer consequences.

Except it's hard to design anything "difficult" to do in SS13. Either it's difficult until you learn how to do it and after that it's an absolute breeze, or it's difficult enough (low success chance, materials are hard to get) that it would still exist ICly/OOCly to make death feel "cheap", while having little to no gameplay impact (people don't even get to benefit from it).

You are wrong. It would not still make death cheap. It has a chance of not working based on brain damage. Death is less cheap by including a lower chance of success. You would not be able to go straight back into roleplay like nothing happened. It would have a large impact on roleplay, on behavior, on how your character acts. Hell, having their brain cut into and modified, and actually just flat-out acknowledging this, with permanent functional changes, is a major thing. That's not making death cheap at all.

Is getting borged 'making death cheap'?

I could write a lengthy post explaining why, but I'll just summarize; no.

:/

It's a huge change, and you're seeing the issue in black and white. It isn't.

[Tainavaa]

I said often times.

[Frances]

You are wrong. It would not still make death cheap. It has a chance of not working based on brain damage. Death is less cheap by including a lower chance of success. You would not be able to go straight back into roleplay like nothing happened. It would have a large impact on roleplay, on behavior, on how your character acts. Hell, having their brain cut into and modified, and actually just flat-out acknowledging this, with permanent functional changes, is a major thing. That's not making death cheap at all.

ICly, cloning has a chance of failure (from ghosts not coming back to their bodies or refusing to be cloned). Yet that already seems to have little impact on how people perceive death - due to this reason, I find it hard to believe making the cloning process harder would achieve much besides annoying people who want to be cloned.

 

Is getting borged 'making death cheap'?

Not really, because people never get borged on death. It's not something people think of, borgings only tend to happen on valid participants or antags (never seen an antag being borged on Aurora though), and being turned into a borg changes the personality of the character entirely in most cases, thus making it difficult to compare to cloning.

 

It's a huge change, and you're seeing the issue in black and white. It isn't.

In the particular bit you quoted there, I was simply expressing disappointment at K0NFL1QT providing no explanation whatsoever for his opposition to the idea.