(locked) Cult round 27th May 2015

[Cassie]

You weren't going to be in the permabrig permanently. People think that because it has "perma-" in the name that it MUST be a permanent solution. I disagree, and in fact, I think it should be utilized much more. And in this way, it was supposed to be used as a motivator.

 

I have had experiences in the perma on this server as antag. I have seen other people in perma on this server.

I rarely, if ever see things materialize from that - with the exception of people breaking you out.

When you have security that is arresting people in your department for minor things, using the AI as a secpet, spying you furiously (even before the engine fiddling), lolflashing you without a word without asking you to turn yourself in (for arrest), instantly removing your headset, only telling you your charges after you demand a lot of times, putting on stupid irrelevent changes to get you in perma, and not even putting you through processing (nevermind the excuses on this thread), would you seriously have high expections of roleplay and sportmanship in the permabrig? Would you?

I was probably expecting a regular arrest/detention at most for our lipping, not perma. In fact, that was the worst breaking of trust of the round - who does that? Are you allowed to do that as sec? I wish I didn't OOC'ly let my guard down thinking that security would actually apply normal charges instead of invalid ones meant to knock people out of the round.

When the officer came along to arrest Bennit (who has cult items on them), I could have gotten a stun tailsman and ganked them right there; I did not, because that is not how I antag and that would be wrong. I tried to convince the officer that Bennit was harmless and what they did was beneficial, many other station members did the same. I do RP along and try to make fair situations. After the perma incident and the stuff surrounding it, I began losing hope in the round. I did not enjoy it.

We're antags with tomes and tailsmans and godknows what else in our rucksacks. If the amount of disregard and respect considering the amount of hounding we had in the beginning, imagine our fear when we're being illegally dragged off to the permabrig when they don't even know we have cult items in our rucksack. This is a cult round, not mutiny.

OOC'ly, we could not think of roleplay after perma. It was just guns, tasers, and the soltary room. Aurora has a habit of not accomodating antag RP after capture, so pardon me if I don't feel easy after everything they did and doing a trust-excercise by falling back into their arms RP wise.

The "ridiculous charges" were holding until transfer, there is no guarantee of escape (especially when you have a secpet AI), and it's a very demoralizing thing to happen 20 minutes into the game.

Also, nothing I did was worthy of an antag ban IC. My complaints are valid.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Guest

[Skull132]

Okay. I've been browsing over the logs, I talked to a few people, etcetera. Here's roughly what I determined, mostly based on logs:

 

• Bennit was spotted by a patrolling officer (Valery Compton), hacking into atmospherics:
  

  [01:18:30]SAY: Valery Compton/Callabaddie : Antony Bennit, Station Engineer, last seen in maintenance, with full kit, working on the door.
  
  [01:18:34]SAY: Valery Compton/Callabaddie : Fled upon seeing me.

  Shortly thereafter, the warden (Edmund Wade) pulls atmos up on camera and confirms it:
  

  [01:19:55]SAY: Edmund Wade/EvilBrage : Antony Bennit is inside, I've got him on camera.

• Bennit gets arrested, gets processed, etcetera. There is a small set of public outcries, demands, whatever, by Bennit and Lauren (basically, they get testy with sec), to the point of threathening with a power outage.
  
• A power outage is orchestrated by Technokat. More discussion is had, and eventually, Engineering sets the power back up, as they promised, per these logs:
  

  [01:50:35]SAY: Anya Galebe/Cassy_jenelle : But noawh, it's cool. We'll set it up.

 

Now, allow me to point out where this shit actually gets interesting. Note that this was said after what I already posted.

[01:51:02]SAY: Edmund Wade/EvilBrage : Wait until the engine gets back up. We're not going to let them think they've got some kind of democracy going on where they can just threaten everyone with no power.

SAY: Valery Compton/Callabaddie : Man, that's cold.

SAY: Edmund Wade/EvilBrage : Unless you WANT them to do this every time we arrest someone and they don't like it.

SAY: Edmund Wade/EvilBrage : They're blackmailing us.

SAY: Valery Compton/Callabaddie : But aight. I'm not going in there without full AI backup.

 

What can we deduce from this? Well, point one, the arrest wasn't exactly motivated by "You're a cultist, grr!" Or if it was, there is no evidence of it. It was used to set an example, by taking down the entire engineering department.

After that, sec makes their presence known around engineering, people start attacking one another, PoZe and Techno attack the borg that sec had accompany them, and it goes off from there.

Now, why would sec do this? Quite simple: it's a means of getting back in control over a situation which, in their eyes, had escalated out of control. It was the security department choosing to try and slot engineering back into the playfield, whence they had perceived that engineering had left said playfield.

Is it a dickmove? In the manner that it was conducted: in my opinion, yes. It does not really solve the issue of Engineering being pissed off at Security, and it only creates the precedence for further issues to arise, mostly in the form of Engineering starting to actively screw with Security. A better move would have been nixing out the people who you know are fully responsible (Techno and PoZe, for attacking the borg, and Techno for disabling everything forever, for a time), and make sure the rest understand the situation. Or at least made it clear that the brigging wasn't going to be permanent.

Is it an unreasonable dickmove? Debatable. I would have personally seen this situation better resolved (temporary briggings, making an example of a small subset, as opposed to the entire department), but I can see the reasons for it.

[Tainavaa]

But you didn't bother giving it a chance, Cassie. It was forgone completely without ever being given a chance. Instead you just blew up instead of seeing what came of it along with everyone else. That shows to me a complete inability to cope with unexpected, unwanted thing. You may dislike what happened, as EvilBrage didn't, but you could have done something like he did and manned up (figuratively), and dealt with it. But you didn't.

I completely disagree with the validity of your complaints however, especially with what just came to light by Skull's post. I am still for antag-bans.

[Eliot Clef]

My previous post only requires minor modification to reflect that.

Josh was still cheering for security, as evidenced by his previous posts in the thread and by the fact that he usually mains security.

 

Josh's biggest claim to fame on this server, in my perception, is playing Winston Carton -- a dirty cop who often played the part of nukeop. He's very accommodating of antags, even as a member of Security. You're aiming accusations of bias at an individual who has a longstanding history of the opposite sort of behavior.

 

What I see here is security using excessive force, and cultgineering responding with excessive force of their own. The matter should have stayed entirely IC, with security or engineering emerging as the victor of their bloody outburst of carnage. Instead, we have threats of antag-bans.

Antagonists oppose the crew. These antagonists opposed security and won. At which point were rules violated, in this turn of events?

 

Primarily when some cultists started camping arrivals and cryogenics, apparently.

Security apprehended a number of individuals on Neglect of Duty. On the surface it can be argued that Security went on to commit a violation of i214, Exceeding Official Powers, but that depends on what EvilBrage (the Warden) has to say about his intentions and what the logs demonstrate about the same. As has been indicated, the power outage caused by Engineering's hissy fit deprived the normal brig of power at the time, somewhat justifying the use of the permabrig as a temporary holding area. I can verify this lack of power, because by the time of the jailbreak the brig required a crowbar to navigate at all.

The people who suffered the most from the cult victory weren't Security. They mostly got folded into the cult, from what I could see.

[Cassie]

No Tainavaa, there was no legitimate reason why a mutiny and/or sedition charges were made. I don't care how we should have "made light of it", the security members who ascribed that to us did so to get us in the permabrig, even though it was not a valid charge and they probably knew that. We could not have possibly been mutinists or seditionists because we have no authority to rebel against (we did not defy any head/command/ert/centcom order, which are the only roles that count), it was literally impossible. What do you not understand?

We should be looking at sec bans, not antag bans if you're so happy to look into bans Tainavaa. But I'm more concerned on targetting the mentality here, I don't have to entertain a bunch of RP'ers who have not even had the courtesy to try to be honest security. The "unexpected, unwanted" thing would have been an normal arrest, not a false charge to "HAHA GOT YOU IN PERMA SUCKER. RESPECT MA AUTHORITY" mutiny charge with no heads. Believe it or not, we had higher expectations.

Also Skull.

Well, just a correction. My character at the point of saying "But noawh, it's cool. We'll set it up." had this on her mind.

- Okay, I saw the engine get set up by that engineer in the hardsuit earlier. I'm sure -he- set it up, did he finish?

- Guess I'll double check it.

Then I got to the singularity engine room.

- SMES units seem fine. Everything's set up well.

Then I assume after that Lauren perhaps sabotaged it shortly after. Just for clarification, I didn't actually do anything with the engine.

[Guest]

Heyo, Compton here. Now, I don't have logs, but I'll lay it on you as unbiased-ly as I can manage.

I spent about 10-15 minutes getting my roundstart kit together, then went off on patrols in maintenance and the main halls. I run by engineering maintenance with a flashlight and a PDA light on, and see Bennit fucking with the door. I'm about to stop and say "Hey man, what're you doing?" Then he just bolts on me. I report the incident to security and then I stop, take a picture of the door, and am about to tape the place off for the detective, when I hear a mess of wrenching, screwing, snipping, and hacking noises. I report that too, Val's figuring he's just doing the same thing on the other side.

She gets the go-ahead to arrest Bennit. AI opens a path to him. She spends 5 minutes attempting to talk him down, and getting him to get into cuffs. He resists, and Compton disarm-intents him down, then batons him twice. Cuffs go on. (He was in a spacesuit). Blade then obstructs Compton from leaving the department and demands she state the charges. She does. Blade continues whining and getting uppity. (Actually, not sure it was Blade, to be honest. It might have been another engineer.) Compton emotes pushing her aside, and proceeds to exit engineering with AI support. Compton pronounces the sentence upon arrival to brig; That being - "Minor Tresspass and Petty Theft. Mitigation for resisting arrest. Minus time spent in detention. Minus time for intent." He spent 2:20 seconds in the brig before being released. This was a slap on the wrist for being a shitter and breaking into atmospherics instead of asking the AI. (Much of the reduced time was due to spending 5 minutes being obstructed by engineering while having him in cuffs.

Engineering throws a shitfit over this, and uses this as justification to withold power from the entire station. From here, due to lack of command staff, the situation rapidly spirals out of control. Eventually, the Warden authorizes the arrest of 3 individuals who are known to be the primary shit-stirrers. Not the (ENTIRE) department. That's a little hyperbole. But not entirely inaccurate. So we go in, we arrest one engineer. Sweep engineering for the others. Then we hear flashing and beating and sparking from secure tech storage. Ohboy.png The engineers inside are attempting to kill a standard cyborg, and immediately begin attacking security officers upon entry. Sec goes in hot and cuffs them all.

At this point, not only have these 3-4 players been throwing a shitfit all round over the most innocuous shit, but now they're screaming and crying about metagrudging. I hear something about tomes in LOOC. Then it hits me. They're using their antag status as justification for being gigantic shitbirds to everyone else, not making the round /interesting/ and /fun./ I laugh like a maniac in LOOC of course, like the mature shitter I am.

I'm about to take my suspect into regular brig, which is still powered. Warden says "No, we're taking this show up to permabrig." I'm like; "For what raisin?" And the reasoning was, now they're basically engaged in an act of mutiny. In addition to the other bullshit they've been pulling since about 25 minutes after roundstart, their sentences are in excess of an hour. It smacked of at least light shittery to me, but at that point I was so fed up with the behavior of the players themselves, because it really seemed like they were pushing their antag justifications balls to the wall and just being assholes for the sake of it- that I, and Val as a result, didn't put up too much of a fuss.

So we put them in perma. Warden hands me one of their ID's. I go wire up and hotwire two solars. Engieborg gets the other three. I head back to security to check on perma. I see the Warden down and all the engineers free. See Yinzr. The dicklizard. My mortal enemy. I flee, obviously. What the fuck am I gonna do against a cult officer and four angry, metagrudging cultists at that point?

Note- the only engineer that seemed to have any vested interest in making sure the station even had nominal levels of power was a fellow whose name started with M, and an engineering borg. Neither managed to be able to set up the singularity, and Compton assisted the engineering borg with hotwiring the solars into the grid as a stopgap measure.

So I rush off to EVA and loot it for EVA equipment. At that point, I'm thinking there isn't shit all I can do but BTFO and try to help other people BTFO. Then I see Frank arrive. (IAA). I escort him to his office, appraise him of the situation, and he sends a Fax to central. Then an engineer hacks through the door, and the Warden is there.

Engineer points a laser at me. Orders me to walk out with my hands up. Val does it, Warden cuffs her. Engineer runs off to go do the same with some other poor sap. Warden brings Val off to the brig, and they have a somewhat one-sided but still quite fun tete-a-tete, with Val violently resisting conversion. She still thinks that an ERT is on the way, because of the Fax Frank sent. So she's willing to undergo a little temporary death in service to the company. She's a brave bitch. And she knows this shit is beyond evil.

Of course, there's no admins on. No ERT is sent. And after the Warden melts Val's face off into a carbonized mess with his Laser Rifle, I ghost out and watch his reaction. Warden plays the shaky, but determined madman /very/ well.

I watch the cult wander around the station and order everyone they meet at gunpoint to surrender. Instant cuffing, and when they resist, it's just blat blat blat with my gat gat gat. It's nothing unexpected. So we've now got dead bodies piling up. The typical shitty cult RP on the bridge, then eventually they manage to pull their heads out of their ass long enough to summon Nar-Nar. Then the round basically ends as a result.

All in all, it was pretty poor cult form all around, with a few exceptions. It wasn't anything new, imaginative, or very fun. It was just your typical asshurt antag players screaming and whining in LOOC then, gloating endlessly when they get the upper hand in the same.

I hope that's not TOO biased. :^)

[Tainavaa]

I am looking strictly at the mentality, Cassie. As I said. It was done entirely in bad faith. Security had some form of roleplay in mind.

I maintain my stance, and would really like to see some antag bans.

[Skull132]

As noted, this thread is specifically for discussing the security-engineering shenanigans that took place in the round in question. The complaint for spawn camping, effectively, is something I'm looking into over private means (until someone raises a complaint over it), and if there are any further notes about the conduct of the round, I would appreciate them being sent to myself, or formatted in a new complaint.

[Guest]

I've only really seen these characters as "normal people," and to be honest, they always seem like "little antags."

If this is the way they roll a cult round, and regularly behave in OOC, I wouldn't mind an antag-ban for them either.

[Guest]

The people who suffered the most from the cult victory weren't Security. They mostly got folded into the cult, from what I could see.

 

Can support this.

I join as an assistant late-round. I already gather the cult's seized absolute control of the station, judging from the manifest. I dive in for fun, assuming I can hide out somewhere with whoever else is left that isn't cult.

Nope. Engineer, Lauren Blade, wearing the captain's gear meets me at the other end of cryogenics waiting with a laser rifle and a fire axe, telling me (as an assistant, who spawns with no gear besides anything from the custom loadout, and none of those things can even be used as a weapon) to get on the floor. I am not a threat, and I never planned to be a threat.

It was pretty clear that cultist wasn't going anywhere else. They were definitely camping cryogenics for free conversions.

 

-No powergaming. Roleplay precedes over objectives - do not engage in behavior which would be unrealistic for your character in an attempt to win the round.

 

Roleplay precedes over objectives, the rule states. This pretty much means, "Please give the opposing side the benefit of the doubt and a fleeting chance before you do anything to oppose them. Be fair, don't be unfair. Do unto others what you want done unto you, the end, everyone enjoys the game."

I wasn't playing prior to these events, but it was pretty clearcut there was a massive gankfest that ended with security on the bottom. I heard from Josh that there was a lot of arrivals/cryocamping by some of the cultists for free conversions.

Whatever happened prior, I'm not entirely sure on. It sounds like security was overzealous in their pursuit of validhunt. They ended up provoking the gankfest themselves due to pissed off cultists. Pissed off cultists then 'RPed' the typical, boring murderbone 'JOIN OR DIE' archetype, just as equally zealous as security was. Cult was ready to kill like security was ready to validhunt.

either way, neither side was really justified in their actions. I would suggest looking at the security forces with the information regarding possible metagame as well as validhunting. At the same time, looking at the cultists for powergaming regarding spawncamping for conversions. Temp job-bans and antagbans in my mind would do the trick to ensure neither side does this again.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Whatever happened prior, I'm not entirely sure on. It sounds like security was overzealous in their pursuit of validhunt. They ended up provoking the gankfest themselves due to pissed off cultists. Pissed off cultists then 'RPed' the typical, boring murderbone 'JOIN OR DIE' archetype, just as equally zealous as security was. Cult was ready to kill like security was ready to validhunt.

.

this guy gets it.

also, it's not really "sec was trying to RP" when you got people sticking engineers in perma because "oh they be mean". Yea i bet that would have made super great RP

[Tainavaa]

I disagree entirely on job-bans. They had an idea with a precedence and decided they would follow through for some RP and to get what they want. I am entirely against it because I know for a fact I hated being told that I couldn't do thing because somebody didn't like it. It completely ruined the entire game for me, and it made me stop playing for a while. Those restrictions were officially lifted, and I'm thoroughly enjoying the game again.

Was it entirely for reals serious RP? No, but like I said before, it was done with PURPOSE and with FUN in mind. Which is what's important. It COULD have been fun, but the cultists immediately jumped to screaming "Powergame!" and "Shitcurity!" and instead overreacted both OOC and IC. Had they known OOC what their intentions were, I'm certain it wouldn't have gone the way it did HOWEVER that is absolutely no fun at all and I find communicating things like that to ruin said fun. Maybe others do enjoy it, I don't know.

But I completely believe that what security did was in good faith.

Johnny, I have the most ominous feeling you missed some critical points in this thread.

[Guest]

:^)

 

So, going by your story the maximum hour+ charges were intentional because you didnt like the cultists doing antagonistic things. (Which you OOCly only, believed were antags)

The permabrig was also there because fucking antags being antags, and finally you want them banned because you hate antags fighting or winning against sec.

...And the regular brig was apparently available but not used because department wars are the best meme.

Well, this is lovely. Good to know the slightest antagonistic action is worthy of an OOC metagrudge permabrigging.

And, about the bits about the regular brig being online, but the permabrig being chosen on purpose, is that really true?

Does that imply all those bits about the cultgineers being let out after a moment because power was out in the regular brig were just lies?

 

But I completely believe that what security did was in good faith.

According to Callabaddie, that's entirely untrue.

[Skull132]

Right, here is the current course of action planned:

• We'll be going over what Security did and why, and assessing that.
• As it stands, the actions of the antagonists are being reviewed for possible spawn camping by some of the cultists.
  
• Beyond that, we also want to look at the related LOOC and OOC conduct, mainly because, depending on circumstance, jumping certain things into LOOC really shouldn't happen.
  
• And we'll be looking over the conduct and actions of Josh.

 

That is roughly all we're planning for now. We'll see where this goes.

[Guest]

Aw shit, the other posts got baleeted. I assume we're re-focusing the discussion as per above post?

Edited May 27, 2015 by Guest

[Skull132]

Right. That is roughly 4 posts deleted. Please don't clutter up this thread with useless banter. Doing so will inevitably get the thread locked, so as you choose.

And please drop the silly requests of, "I'd like X banned from Y for reason Z." It's literally childish.

[Guest]

Am I alright to post the direct response to starfish's post up there?

[Skull132]

Aw shit, the other posts got baleeted. I assume we're re-focusing the discussion as per above post?

 

Basically, either that, or give us time. We have a long discussion already completed, and we have perspectives from a number of people as a result of this. So, unless there's anything else to put in, yeah.

[Guest]

Aw shit, the other posts got baleeted. I assume we're re-focusing the discussion as per above post?

 

Basically, either that, or give us time. We have a long discussion already completed, and we have perspectives from a number of people as a result of this. So, unless there's anything else to put in, yeah.

Aight, sounds good. I had a post I wanted to throw at starfish to kinda counter the hard twist they're puttin' on my words- but I can deal.

[Ziaboop]

And we'll be looking over the conduct and actions of Josh.

 

I'd just like to say, on that point since we have a complaints section but not a positive feedback section, that I think given the circumstances Josh was doing the best that he could trying to control the rapidly spiralling out of control madhouse of headless chickens that the cult round (Like cult rounds tend to do) ended up being.

There was pretty much no way that the opposition to the cult could do anything as soon as they broke out of the brig, because they immediately went around pulling out all the gear they could and breaking into every vital station system that they could... then of course came the ganking and the arrivals camping to put the icing on the cake.

I wasn't playing that round, I was observing while trying to set up my forum account and had actually intended to go to bed but couldn't turn myself away from the trainwreck happening in front of me. There was no opportunity what so ever for an opposition to form, maybe out of spite for the alleged maltreatment that security had ICly and OOC done on the original cultists, but that doesn't excuse the behaviour and it definitely doesn't excuse rune spamming Edmund Wade about 5 or more times while playing pass the parcel with his body. That moment summed up the attitude that the cult seemed to show the whole game, any hope of opposition was to be strangled in a manner which completely prohibited any kinda of come back or doomed defense, and then when they'd already won they refused to end the game and dragged it on as long as they possible could even attacking the AI when it was the only thing left.

Another issue which I think the staff need to look at is the inability for moderators to call ERT, that would have probably made the game more enjoyable for all sides when people could try to mount some sort of defence against cultists who all seemed to have armour and weapons slaughtering completely defenceless people.

I understand bloodcult is supposed to be brutal but we've also got to remember that it's first and foremost a game and everybody's enjoyment is to be considered. I think at least the round was incredibly unsporting and at worst probably amounts to powergaming on multiple fronts (Securing everything worth securing right at the start of the game after escaping brig confinement).

But eh, I was incredibly tired at the time so these thoughts may be over-exaggerated, but that's my birds eye view ghosting take on the game and if nothing else I don't blame Josh at all for getting stressed out over the round, I was just an observer and I was incredibly stressed out over it myself.

[EvilBrage]

Security could had handle this case a bit better. Instead of jailing everyone, whether they were involved or not, perhaps next time take the louder disruptive parties and remove them, and for the ones that aren't really doing anything, try to gain control of the scenario. Make sure too you have evidence of the people you're arresting. Yes, there was evidence in the form of the comms, but those were just a few people and you don't have to make examples of everyone.

 

We were working with limited officer coverage, and I did state my reason for taking them to the permabrig quite clearly ICly, "see how they like a dark room with no power." A scare tactic to soften them up before interrogation. The intention was to process them as normal after power was restored (which obviously would've been impossible with no engine or solars working at all,) but the crux of the issue is right here:

 

[01:51:02]SAY: Edmund Wade/EvilBrage : Wait until the engine gets back up. We're not going to let them think they've got some kind of democracy going on where they can just threaten everyone with no power.

SAY: Valery Compton/Callabaddie : Man, that's cold.

SAY: Edmund Wade/EvilBrage : Unless you WANT them to do this every time we arrest someone and they don't like it.

SAY: Edmund Wade/EvilBrage : They're blackmailing us.

SAY: Valery Compton/Callabaddie : But aight. I'm not going in there without full AI backup.

 

What can we deduce from this? Well, point one, the arrest wasn't exactly motivated by "You're a cultist, grr!" Or if it was, there is no evidence of it. It was used to set an example, by taking down the entire engineering department.

After that, sec makes their presence known around engineering, people start attacking one another, PoZe and Techno attack the borg that sec had accompany them, and it goes off from there.

Now, why would sec do this? Quite simple: it's a means of getting back in control over a situation which, in their eyes, had escalated out of control. It was the security department choosing to try and slot engineering back into the playfield, whence they had perceived that engineering had left said playfield.

 

The entire engineering department wasn't a target until PoZe started attacking the cyborg, but by that time they were all involved already, so "all of engineering" wasn't the goal at the outset but rather just happened as the arrests went on. There are actually logs where I hesitated ICly when I realized we had one more person than expected in the brig, but after remembering the assault that took place I brushed it off and threw him in there with the others. The idea with throwing those charges around was very much to scare a childish engineering crew who thought they could get away with blackmail; would they hold up under close scrutiny in a Sol Government court? Maybe. But I enjoyed interacting with Anya/Cassie as they were being arrested because it looked like that was going to be the best interrogation, the crackdown was having its desired effect.

As you can see, that feeling quickly disappeared when they took things to LOOC/OOC.

The idea was to scare them ICly, but instead I was met with a blind LOOC rage in which they began to blame me for everything they could possibly think of - and rage at anyone (I'm looking at Josh) who agreed with what I did. I could have kept Edmund resisting until he died, but I thought I could turn the tide back to something that was actually fun instead. I didn't take to LOOC explaining in blind anger how bad everyone was; I did my utmost to keep my disapproval to a minimum. I didn't go inject myself with a loyalty implant to circumvent what had just happened and go on a murderspree. "Lead by example" was the idea, but with that out the window with the rest of what went on I decided to micro-focus on some "raving madman" RP instead - Edmund did have his mind almost shattered, at any rate.

I was honestly surprised to see this complaint, considering the OOC behavior of Cassie, TechnoKat, and PoZe (Direwolf was notably absent from the LOOC rage, if I recall correctly.)

[Frances]

I find that a thing with scare tactics and "roughing up" of prisoners is that they only work if the players OOCly understand your intent. Otherwise they get very easily mistaken for shitsecurity and bad RP.

While I know being stuffed into perma doesn't mean the end of the round for anyone (people putting you in perma shouldn't simply leave you there), some still don't seem to understand that. It would have been good to communicate to the engineers somehow, either ICly or in LOOC, that they would get processed and interrogated.

[Cassie]

Can you guys stop derailing this topic with salt that happened from other cultists.

The shit that happened with the cult, just make another topic. I have issues with the ganking too, but please stop shitting on my topic. If you had an issue with a specific cultist, make a complaint topic. I do not really care, what is complaining to me going to do?

Tainavaa.

Can you please demanding how to feel about a situation where players deliberately chose to bypass their job descriptions as non-antags and play with law charges and get people in a permanent cell to excercise a power trip. I don't know about how much you're desensitized to shitcurity, but I find being put in perma falsely on purpose a big deal. I have given definite descriptions of the mutiny and sedition charges and why we could not have fit under that under any circumstances. That is job complaint material.

It is not roleplay. It was one-sided enjoyment - it was an example of something were people were powertripping and actually had to lie to get there OOC'ly. Do not tell me it was roleplay. I assert that you are not allowed to do what security just did on that round. I know you clearly like the people involved with the incident, but you are defending this way too far. Do not derail my thread with "What some other shitty cultist did on the other side of the station" to distract what happened in the permabrig prior to then.

As for sec putting on false charges (keep in mind, false impossible charges to teach engineering a lesson, not strict ones), this is mutiny/rev/antag sec behaviour. It'd be different if we all had different charges and kept into holding until yada yada, but apparently this is not what went down - at least from our point of view. They claim we'd be processed, what is the proof of that? Anyone can say that post round.

They are not the antags. This was not "good RP", it was a nuisance and an abomination that impeded antag activity and caused players (some being those that have behaviour issues as seen in other threads) to become more paranoid and desperate than they were already, and you really, really cannot control the fuck out of other people once they get "jailbreak" in their blood. Believe me, the cult was sporadic and chaotic to be in, none of the plans or RP I wanted to do ever got fufilled, and my first antag round in months was practically ruined.

People are trying to wet-coward and backpeddle and say "We were trying to RP!" when the treatment of the players in the round prior to the jailbreak implied the goal was to get us in a permacell. I would like to remind everyone we had little to no interaction during the engineering "crackdown", and the arrests and cell-tossing was literally almost non-verbal lolflash business. We did not even have our charges read to us, I had to demand them.

No sign whatsoever that anything but permabrig was going to happen. Anyone can claim "WE HAD RP COMING!" but you really spent a good round showing us your "RP skills", so that's what anyone would say to save their skin. Unless you want to pull out logs of officers having plans of having us in questioning I can't be bothered to trust anyone's excuses.

[EvilBrage]

Okay, so we really should be moving towards a resolution, but you're not making any sense, and/or you're not reading the observations of impartial, ghosted players who watched during that round, so I'll try to sum things up here:

What is the point of this complaint?

First you claimed you were stuck there for the rest of the round. Logs and observers can both confirm this is not true.

 

About 2/3rds of the cult (including non-antags) were almost wiped out of the game and put in a small cramped solitary cell for the rest of the game because of incompetent security measures.

 

You then claimed that there was no RP prior to the arrests that took place. Again, logs and observers both have proven this to be false.

 

The officers are still just there, standing in the lobby, drifting in and out like a bunch of zombies. Anyway, suddenly, the first actual "gank" of the game happens. Like, we were just having tea in the engineering lobby. No antag shit whatsoever, not armed, not running. Just there at the table. I get run over to, lolflashed and cuffed.

Do you see the log where you told me in LOOC that you did plan on turning the engine back on?

That means you, as a player, knew. And chances are, your character knew as well. I mean, you did plan on turning it back on... Right?

 

You claimed that the charges were entirely false and that it was just a security gank. Impartial observers disagree.

 

The arrest was decent. And in fact EvilBrage's idea was a very genius one that never beared fruit because of the LOOC spam completely halting him, quickly followed by getting stunned by a cultist officer I believe. Brage said what he wanted to do in LOOC as well, which I'm sure you will find in the logs. So on that bit alone, metagaming is definitely a no-no. And I would argue the incompetence claim as well. I really wish it came to light. Very simple but would have been a good motivator for certain.

 

You also claim my intent was to leave you in the permabrig with no RP. I attempted to notify you via LOOC that this was not the case.

 

EvilBrage had the intent to keep engineering there and personally oversee that the power got turned back on. After it was, the engineering personnel were to be released. At least, that's what I've gathered from the LOOC ramblings where EvilBrage stood out.

 

But you didn't notice that. Why?

 

-Almost all of the engineering cultists began to react very abrasively to being arrested in LOOC (Cassy, Poze, Techno). Full on yelling at sec players, insults, etc. This is no way to conduct yourself if you want to resolve a conflict or bring up what you believe to be an injustice to other players.

This made me come over, to which I was greeted by Poze screaming that he just joined the round and started screaming regulations at sec in LOOC, Techno calling Brage a twat and you, Cassie, telling me things that I knew were wrong. [...] I then told Techno he had permission to do what he needed to do to escape, and was interrupted by Poze screaming "SEC TOOK THE SOAP, META AS FUCK". When I informed him they did not and that he needed to cool down, and Techno told him that he had it instead, I was met by Poze screaming something along the lines "Are you telling me I need to cool down?!" [...] You and Poze were so disrespectful that round that had it not been just me dealing with that, I would have asked staff for something harsher then the slap on the wrist that I gave you. But I was afraid of my bias, so I let you go and continue the round.

But you didn't bother giving it a chance, Cassie. It was forgone completely without ever being given a chance. Instead you just blew up instead of seeing what came of it along with everyone else. That shows to me a complete inability to cope with unexpected, unwanted thing. You may dislike what happened, as EvilBrage didn't, but you could have done something like he did and manned up (figuratively), and dealt with it. But you didn't.

I completely disagree with the validity of your complaints however, especially with what just came to light by Skull's post. I am still for antag-bans. [...] It COULD have been fun, but the cultists immediately jumped to screaming "Powergame!" and "Shitcurity!" and instead overreacted both OOC and IC. Had they known OOC what their intentions were, I'm certain it wouldn't have gone the way it did HOWEVER that is absolutely no fun at all and I find communicating things like that to ruin said fun. Maybe others do enjoy it, I don't know.

But I completely believe that what security did was in good faith.

 

And that's the crux of this whole issue.

 

But you didn't bother giving it a chance, Cassie. It was forgone completely without ever being given a chance. Instead you just blew up instead of seeing what came of it along with everyone else. That shows to me a complete inability to cope with unexpected, unwanted thing. You may dislike what happened, as EvilBrage didn't, but you could have done something like he did and manned up (figuratively), and dealt with it. But you didn't.

I am looking strictly at the mentality, Cassie. As I said. It was done entirely in bad faith. Security had some form of roleplay in mind.

 

Where I tried to foster some form of RP, both before and after things got out of hand, you only screamed, shouted, and kicked. You, TechnoKat, and PoZe disrespected the players behind the characters in security and even Josh when he came over to mediate the brewing conflict. You responded in a disgustingly rude manner to something that could have very well been calmly sorted out right there on the spot, but your OOC mentality got in the way - just like it is now. You orchestrated the situation and what ensued by refusing to take a step back, calm down, and listen to the other side (or the moderator himself when he tried to step in.) In essence, you're being a poor sport despite the fact that you did escape not five minutes later; this complaint isn't about correcting behavior, this is about misrepresenting the facts in order to have someone punished because you want them to be punished.

To you, this is about punishing the players of security because they did something you didn't want them to.

[Cassie]

Tainavaa is not an impartial observer, that is ridiculous. I've already rebutted a lot of what Tainavaa said and I don't know if you are doing this on purpose but you are purposely ignoring every response arguement I have given.

 

You then claimed that there was no RP prior to the arrests that took place. Again, logs and observers both have proven this to be false.

Brage, the no RP, in the context of the sentence was terrible "RP". Just speaking on the comms is not RP. Like tgstation tier. The AI and officers were not behaving correctly when they were hounding down engineering the way they did.

 

You also claim my intent was to leave you in the permabrig with no RP. I attempted to notify you via LOOC that this was not the case.

And I did not believe you, and demanded logs for evidence. I did not trust you. I've seen too many officers do what you did, and I would like proof. I have not received proof that any officers IC'ly planned to release us from perma.

 

You claimed that the charges were entirely false and that it was just a security gank. Impartial observers disagree.

Wow, someone you claim is impartial (Tainavaa and god knows who else) disagrees. Does not mean I am wrong.

Tain just disagreed with my train of thought, she did not actually prove me wrong. The laws clearly state they apply to command, not security.

 

But I completely believe that what security did was in good faith.

And that's the crux of this whole issue.

And as I said earlier in this post, there's evidence that points to that being not true. For example, look at what Callabaddie post here:

 

I'm about to take my suspect into regular brig, which is still powered. Warden says "No, we're taking this show up to permabrig." I'm like; "For what raisin?" And the reasoning was, now they're basically engaged in an act of mutiny. In addition to the other bullshit they've been pulling since about 25 minutes after roundstart, their sentences are in excess of an hour. It smacked of at least light shittery to me, but at that point I was so fed up with the behavior of the players themselves, because it really seemed like they were pushing their antag justifications balls to the wall and just being assholes for the sake of it- that I, and Val as a result, didn't put up too much of a fuss.

 

Don't think I didn't miss that.

 

Where I tried to foster some form of RP, both before and after things got out of hand, you only screamed, shouted, and kicked.

You were quite wrong and strong on the inaccurate charges, and I don't think you tried to foster any RP at all other than telling the engineers to fuck off and not mess with the power, a lot of the response to engineering were snarky and provoking. Otherwise I'd like to see logs.

Let's not mention your warden was pretty sore after being converted and did not move or talk for quite a while because you were likely throwing your own tantrum about it. You were a poor sport, and the prisoners did not gain any form of RP apart from being shut up, having their headsets removed and thrown in the brig with a bunch of armed sec around them, you claimed the cells had no power - which is untrue. You did everything to shit on the players OOCly because you did not like them.

You did not expect your own officer and consequently the people you arrested to turn on you, and that's where you got salty.

 

You orchestrated the situation and what ensued by refusing to take a step back, calm down, and listen to the other side (or the moderator himself when he tried to step in.)

 

What happened between the moderator and I is something we have to discuss in a separate topic. From what you saw on this topic, Josh is clearly very emotional about the issue and completely ignored every valid point I brought up about the arrests. He spent a lot of time whining about how I or PoZe offended him rather than stepping back and realize "Hang on, there's something dysfunctional going on both sides here and it needs to be resolved/investigated" instead of instantly taking a side. This simply shows me he is unable to refrain from bias.

If anyone wants to dispute this opinion of mine, send it in a PM or byond pager or a new topic or this topic will be even more derailed.