IPC balance ideas

[Killerhurtz]

So - on another suggestion post about IPC's equivalent to genetics, the issue of IPC overpoweredness came up. I agree - IPCs ARE overpowered (Sybil's pseudo-immortality is proof of that). But in my opinion, it's not a question of "organics have more weaknesses" than a question of "IPCs haven't had many coded-in weaknesses". And so I scoured this reference post given by Scopes, and I plan on giving out ideas on how to balance out IPC's sheer power.

 

Functional immortality

The fix to this one is actually simple (concept-wise - code wise, unless the organs code is modular and can be ported over and modified to work easily, probably pretty hard). Either give IPCs 'organ' components (coolant pump, power cell, servocontroller, structural body motors, so on) and make them have appropriate damage (coolant pump causes gradual overheat equivalent to having low/no air pressure depending on how much damage it took and causes coolant loss, which would be equivalent to blood loss and cause overheating if no coolant is added back, powercell damage permanently gives the effect of IPC hunger and slows them tremendeously, servocontrollers/motors affect of course body control, structural body being the equivalent of bones) or make them have negative effects when damaged (burn damage progressively increases "hunger drain", brute damage gives a random chance of an action failing due to mechanical jams). And finally, to make them a lot less "dead-or-alive" robust, since I compared coolant to blood - it's only logical that an IPC should slow down/shut down if it goes above a certain temperature.+

 

Ability to masquerade as/bypass whitelists of other races

Again, I see two possible solutions to this. Either add a visible visual cue as to the nature of an IPC, or give it servomotor noises when it walks/does things.

Thoughts?

 

Don't need food/can charge off any powered APC

I actually see this as a weakness. Vending machines are everywhere. Organics can carry food. So that means that if the station stops having electricity (or say, there's a freak incident where they're stranded on Derelict, for instance), the organics have the advantage of being able to carry food.

But let's ignore this, for a moment, and pretend it is an advantage. There's a way to balance this still - either change the fueling from APCs to power cells (which can be manufactured at an autolathe) or a dedicated item to it, and make IPCs actually capable of being harmed/shut down by a lack of power - and have, lore-wise, a clause that says that an IPC that runs out of power would have a memory loss similar to cloned people because of the lack of time to store the contents of whatever serves as RAM. That way, literally the only difference is that IPC food is rechargeable (which, again, can be counterplayed by having them being only able to feed off authorized disposable fuel cells).

But still - what I see as a major component of this 'advantage' is that IPCs have only relatively minor, AFAIK, disadvantages to not charging whereas I'm pretty sure there's code to kill people who don't eat for X amount of time.

 

Immunity to poison

Again, conceptually simple, and I see two related solutions. Both of them imply making some chemicals dangerous to IPC - new, or existing ones, and to keep in the principle of "IPCs don't heal", it would require fixing and/or rinsing off the chemicals in a shower (yay for usefulness!). For existing ones, here's some ideas:

-Kelotane: it's pretty much carbon and silicon together - and as modern science tells us, carbon and silicon are very easily conductive. With the fix above for food, make it behave like lipozine does to organics by shorting circuits and rapidly draining charge (or, without the above fix and on the same principle of shorting an IPC, have it cause EMP or, ironically, burn damage)

-Paracetamol: it's pretty much burnt sugar (inaprovaline) in sugar water right? Have it clog/stick IPCs, causing them to slow down/be paralyzed until washed off.

-Radium: It's radioactive. It's used in virology to mutate virus, and I'm 90% certain that every chemical compound that is not slime-derived and that causes mutations contains radium. So make it have radioactive effects on IPCs: EMP damage and random errors (which can cause issues, like loss of fine motor control that makes it hard to hold things in hand, to disabling the visual/audio feed, so on)

-Thermite: It's a dangerous substance. And when injected in people, it DOES cause burn damage. Have it do the same to IPCs.

But of course, to be fair - there should be some positive chemicals, no?

-Space Lubricant: it's explicitly explained to be used in industrial machines. So either it should make IPCs move faster (a la hyperzine) or lower hunger drain.

-Hydrogen: Let's assume, for a moment, that IPCs don't use a powercell, but instead use a fuel cell. Hydrogen would allow replenishing a fuel cell - it would be the IPC equivalent of the sugar the chemical dispenser gives out.

-Nitrogen: now, let's get something straight here. Either it's a nitrogen compound that has a low enthalpy (because otherwise, IIRC, nitrogen compounds tend to be VERY stable), or the chemical dispense gives out liquid nitrogen (then again it also applies to above, doesn't it?). No matter what it is, make it behave like a "heat sink" - when IPCs that contain nitrogen/are exposed to nitrogen, have it behave like a heat sink - prevents heat from building up at the cost of consuming nitrogen (and, to be fair, producing it and adding it to any existing atmosphere). It could be a temporary fix for breached suits (or a temporary method of traveling through vacuum), similar to how peridaxon and dexalin are for organics.

Immunity to suffocation

Fair problem with no easy solution, since they ARE machines. My solution would be that the temperature is only stable at a standard atmospheric air mix - have the air contain more of the "coolant" gasses (N2, N20, CO2)? It lowers the temperature of the IPC to the point where the cooling system (let's assume, lore-wise and for balance purposes, that it's a cheap, standard cooling system with a liquid similar, physically, to water but that is not - because otherwise we get the problem of the blood above) freezes over, causing damage. If there's one of the low specific heat (O2, plasma) in the air? The cooling system loses efficiency to the point where it slowly causes heat buildup, similar to being in-vacuum. The same principle applies for high/low pressure - high pressure increases efficiency and freezes it, low pressure reduces efficiency and heats it up. And then, to make it fair again (because IPCs with suffocation and no internals seems a bit too much), enable internals for IPCs (and, lore-wise, the explanation could be that IPCs have an atmospheric bypass system that allows them to take air from a single intake, say internals, and run it through the cooling system to balance it out).

Which really, the only advantage this still gives to IPC is not being particularly harmed by plasma toxicity - which is in line with the lore I do believe.

 

Immunity to chemical/viral/bacterial/gaseous hazard

First, that's not entirely true - there ARE several chemical mix highly hazardous to IPCs (iron+uranium for EMP, napalm/that fire slime thing, sulphuric/polytrinic acid, explosive mixes). And there's the solution above for poisons as well. Gaseous was discussed above with the no-suffocation clause, aside from plasma (which I would need to check the lore properties of plasma to correctly give a solution). Viral/bacterial? Easy fixes.

For viral, I suggest tying it into the station. There's the vending machine viruses, Greyt1de virus for station and ionospheric corrupt laws correct? First, I suggest making ionospheric anomalies have an effect on IPCs - switch their coding to either make them behave differently, or "corrupt their drivers" causing them to have symptoms (like improper cooling or motion control). Second, have a chance of the food supply of IPCs carrying either corrupt or harmful data in the interface software, basically giving IPCs food poisoning. And finally, for the equivalent of virology - we could also have a Computer Science laboratory where people research possible software issues that could arise... or where antags can custom-tailor a computer virus to slip into a fuel cell to poison a particular IPC. Thread for virus ideas (for future reference and because I feel that here is not the place to argue this) http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2494

Another idea for virus implementation would be swarms of malevolent nanomachines that aim to subvert IPCs.

Bacterial? I feel like people are ignoring a major lore point here. We literally have at LEAST two bioforms (wallrot and Level 7 biohazards) which devour the station's walls and floor. As far as I know, IPCs are made of exactly the same materials. BAM, there's your bacterial threat - if they can grow to become dangerous for the station, they can probably exist in small enough amounts to be able to contaminate IPCs and act like organic infections. Nothing a little thermite and wire can't fix, though.

 

Ease of repair

See functional immortality. With the fix suggested in there, IPCs can become just as hard to repair as people - without the organic healing factor to help. Another tool that would help is making Nanopaste closer to behaving like a medication than the heal-all it is now - nanopastes would come in syringes instead of tube, and would behave exactly like tricordrazine (because I will be the first to admit that nanopaste is too much of an asset as it is - Sybil more often than not survived antag rounds, after being shot/blown up/damaged only because she always carries a tube of nanopaste with her - because she's a scientist and shit happens). And anyway, it makes no sense for nanomachines to act that fast.

Ease of limb replacement

Again, see functional immortality. If we were to at LEAST implement the cooling loop idea, IPCs would have the same pressure for limb replacement as organics - get it replaced and fixed before all the coolant leaks out. The only difference (and AFAIK it's not a major one) is that IPCs can actually get matched parts to repair, whereas nobody ever uses genetics' bioreactor to grow limbs (if they can even do that).

 

Immunity to halloss

I have NO IDEA who thought that was a good idea. If anything, IPCs should take EXTRA halloss damage because it shorts them - or if it doesn't short them, it sure as hell interferes with their literally-electric-control-systems.

 

Immunity to paincrit

Also a very hard problem to work with. Short of giving IPCs a form of pain (where the warnings don't come as "THE PAIN IT HURTS" but as "WARNING - Damage critical, shutting down for safety), there's nothing much I can think about - and even then, it would not make sense for IPCs to be unable to bypass that paincrit to keep on going for just that much longer. I admit it, I'm stumped.

 

Ability to work as walking beakers/grenades (see: Mcmullen)

That one could use some form of penalty for carrying chemicals - maybe something like having EMP/burn damage for all chemicals that do not have a use (because of the medication solution, again, causing shorts). I don't think, lore-wise, that IPCs legitimately have a chemical storage containment - which means that logically speaking the only explanation is that their chassis is water-tight enough to carry chemicals, which means all of their components would be floating in it when they do that. Let's reflect that in in-game effects.

 

Immune to pressure (not sure on this one, could be wrong)

I'm not sure either. Aside from the obvious internals issue, don't organics also have little issues to most pressures? And IPCs are already very vulnerable to vacuum.

 

Exempt from multiple harmful Ion Laws

Technically, so are organics. The issue here, from what I can understand, is that the AIs need to legitimately behave like IPCs are crew. Nothing that can be done code-wise.

 

Typically exempt from Malf AIs' ire

See ion laws above.

 

Know tradeband by default (can support two secondary languages)

That, I'm 90% certain, is simply because there has been major issues (both code and lore wise) in implementing the IPC language.

 

They can't be flashed.

I haven't tested the actual flash devices that heads and Security possess, but I GUARANTEE you that IPCs are vulnerable to flash powder.

They can't have their eyes stabbed.

Then we give them actual, damage-able camera-eyes organs (which requires less work now that cameras are actually involved in the construction of robot frames in Robotics)

 

They don't suffer from radiation.

Last I checked, radiation DOES have a chance of giving them EMP damage. Maybe just up that chance. In real life, radiation fucks computer up.

 

They can't be affected by any changeling stings.

Admittedly, nothing much can be done without clashing with lore. Moving on.

 

They take far less brute damage.

As suggested above, make them take an equivalently high amount of halloss damage (then again, aren't they the only species vulnerable to EMPs? I suggest maybe also making them have negative side effects during the "power shut down for safety event")

 

They take some extra seconds at no pressure before taking damage.

Makes sense, lore-wise. But the "no suffocation" issue above sort of tackles that.

They can't be affected by genetics shenanigans.

See my other thread. I'm going to post a suggestion there for the "accidental" infections equivalent of genetics.

 

Personally, I think the .5 modifier to brute damage is actually ridiculous. It needs to be tuned to .8, so that punching an IPC isn't nearly as effective but melee weaponry can still stand a chance against a droid, and IPCs don't have their limbs be completely crippled instantaneously.

I agree with this. While IPCs ARE machines, we must not forget that they still, most likely, house fragile components which can be broken.

That's all I have to contribute for now - and to me, the key to making IPCs balanced again is to make Robotics not only a pit-stop for IPCs / a place to make robots, but a legitimate whole department which is the basic equivalence of the synthetic medbay (with all that entails). Anyone wants to share thoughts on it?

(Also, I know that implementing these is a lot of work. I'm just throwing ideas out - I might learn Byond code to try and implement them later though)

[Fire and Glory]

...

That's all I have to contribute for now - and to me, the key to making IPCs balanced again is to make Robotics not only a pit-stop for IPCs / a place to make robots, but a legitimate whole department which is the basic equivalence of the synthetic medbay (with all that entails). Anyone wants to share thoughts on it?

I don't think IPCs really need every single benefit countered but they do need to be balanced so I'd support at least some of these being implemented.

On the Robotics note, I'm not really sure where it'd go, plus it'd make it even harder to get something from 'Robotics', since making it a department would mean you'd probably have to separate the sub-professions into individual professions, and getting an active Roboticist is already fairly hard so it'd make it harder to either get Robot repairs or get a mech from Robotics, depending on how many are manning it, plus separating the Robot construction and repair from the mech construction would make it even more boring....

I don't really support making Robotics into a department, maybe a bit bigger if some of this stuff goes in but not a whole department.

[NebulaFlare]

Ability to masquerade as/bypass whitelists of other races

Again, I see two possible solutions to this. Either add a visible visual cue as to the nature of an IPC, or give it servomotor noises when it walks/does things.

My default choice is to look at their shoes and gloves. Those can be bypassed though.

 

Don't need food/can charge off any powered APC

I actually see this as a weakness. Vending machines are everywhere. Organics can carry food. So that means that if the station stops having electricity (or say, there's a freak incident where they're stranded on Derelict, for instance), the organics have the advantage of being able to carry food.

But let's ignore this, for a moment, and pretend it is an advantage. There's a way to balance this still - either change the fueling from APCs to power cells (which can be manufactured at an autolathe) or a dedicated item to it, and make IPCs actually capable of being harmed/shut down by a lack of power - and have, lore-wise, a clause that says that an IPC that runs out of power would have a memory loss similar to cloned people because of the lack of time to store the contents of whatever serves as RAM. That way, literally the only difference is that IPC food is rechargeable (which, again, can be counterplayed by having them being only able to feed off authorized disposable fuel cells).

But still - what I see as a major component of this 'advantage' is that IPCs have only relatively minor, AFAIK, disadvantages to not charging whereas I'm pretty sure there's code to kill people who don't eat for X amount of time.

 

I like this idea. Make it so machines require a power source. IT would cause actual concern when the power starts to go out.

 

Immunity to chemical/viral/bacterial/gaseous hazard

First, that's not entirely true - there ARE several chemical mix highly hazardous to IPCs (iron+uranium for EMP, napalm/that fire slime thing, sulphuric/polytrinic acid, explosive mixes). And there's the solution above for poisons as well. Gaseous was discussed above with the no-suffocation clause, aside from plasma (which I would need to check the lore properties of plasma to correctly give a solution). Viral/bacterial? Easy fixes.

For viral, I suggest tying it into the station. There's the vending machine viruses, Greyt1de virus for station and ionospheric corrupt laws correct? First, I suggest making ionospheric anomalies have an effect on IPCs - switch their coding to either make them behave differently, or "corrupt their drivers" causing them to have symptoms (like improper cooling or motion control). Second, have a chance of the food supply of IPCs carrying either corrupt or harmful data in the interface software, basically giving IPCs food poisoning. And finally, for the equivalent of virology - we could also have a Computer Science laboratory where people research possible software issues that could arise... or where antags can custom-tailor a computer virus to slip into a fuel cell to poison a particular IPC. Thread for virus ideas (for future reference and because I feel that here is not the place to argue this) http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2494

Another idea for virus implementation would be swarms of malevolent nanomachines that aim to subvert IPCs.

Bacterial? I feel like people are ignoring a major lore point here. We literally have at LEAST two bioforms (wallrot and Level 7 biohazards) which devour the station's walls and floor. As far as I know, IPCs are made of exactly the same materials. BAM, there's your bacterial threat - if they can grow to become dangerous for the station, they can probably exist in small enough amounts to be able to contaminate IPCs and act like organic infections. Nothing a little thermite and wire can't fix, though.

 

That's...pretty clever. Perhaps not something that is so strong mechanic-wise, but more humorous arpee-wise. Like an ion storm makes all IPCs sound like they're drunk.

I assume IPC shells are a least hardy enough to deflect ion storms for their most vulnerable 'organ' - their processor. As long as it's not up close like an EMP blast, that is. Station units are different, as they are wirelessly connected to the station itself. but an IPC is disconnected from the station network.

 

Ability to work as walking beakers/grenades (see: Mcmullen)

That one could use some form of penalty for carrying chemicals - maybe something like having EMP/burn damage for all chemicals that do not have a use (because of the medication solution, again, causing shorts). I don't think, lore-wise, that IPCs legitimately have a chemical storage containment - which means that logically speaking the only explanation is that their chassis is water-tight enough to carry chemicals, which means all of their components would be floating in it when they do that. Let's reflect that in in-game effects.

 

This kind of irks me. How the heck are you supposed to be able to inject chemicals into a metal body anyway? Where does it go?

 

Immune to pressure (not sure on this one, could be wrong)

I'm not sure either. Aside from the obvious internals issue, don't organics also have little issues to most pressures? And IPCs are already very vulnerable to vacuum.

 

If I am not mistaken. IPCs are not immune to pressure at all. Lack of pressure means they will receive brute damage, and it will keep rising. I know for certain that while certain pressures around 60 kPA are while uncomfortable to an organic, it's not dangerous. I had my CE Lori walk around the station without a hardsuit when it was partially depressurized. She knows what the safe levels are and isn't afraid of it. No problemo at all.

I want to test the effects of an IPC with low pressure, but I think they still get damaged.

 

Know tradeband by default (can support two secondary languages)

That, I'm 90% certain, is simply because there has been major issues (both code and lore wise) in implementing the IPC language.

 

Yep, that's true. It'd be nice for IPCs to have their own language, but oh well.

Here's the thing: The processor knows ALL languages. If you take it out of the shell, it'll be able to understand anything. So the shell actually dampens the languages the IPC can understand.

 

They can't be flashed.

I haven't tested the actual flash devices that heads and Security possess, but I GUARANTEE you that IPCs are vulnerable to flash powder.

 

Can confirm.

 

They can't have their eyes stabbed.

Then we give them actual, damage-able camera-eyes organs (which requires less work now that cameras are actually involved in the construction of robot frames in Robotics)

And maybe we can use the basis of eye-repair surgery for the code.

 

They don't suffer from radiation.

Last I checked, radiation DOES have a chance of giving them EMP damage. Maybe just up that chance. In real life, radiation fucks computer up.

 

Radiation storms do affect IPCs, but this is more of a code-thing. They can still receive genetic manipulation from it. One shift, my IPC DragonSnap got x-ray vision after a rad storm.

 

They take far less brute damage.

As suggested above, make them take an equivalently high amount of halloss damage (then again, aren't they the only species vulnerable to EMPs? I suggest maybe also making them have negative side effects during the "power shut down for safety event")

 

I'd prefer if this was never touched on. Most IPCs were originally station-bound units, and those chassis are much more hardier than organics. The arpee fallback is that shells are bloody expensive, and should be cared for as much as possible.

While synthetics are able to play the whole, "I'm immortal" card, that's an aspect of arpee I don't want taken away just for the sake of balancing mechanics. They're machines that walk on two legs. Expensive metal components that are armored to protect their precious processor. They /should/ be physically OP.

They're not organics. I like the idea of having rust/metal-eating bacteria be a risk to them. I'd like to see Ion storms have a temporary impact like impaired movement and/or speech. But they are functionally different from organics, and should be treated as such.

That's my two cents.

[LordFowl]

While many of these ideas are decent, and some of them are very good, there are two significant issues with the whole train of thought.

1: Providing a distinct counter for each benefit. A very dull and boring form of balancing, although I suppose easy to come up with.

2: Many of these suggestions essentially make IPCs very slightly different humans. The entire point of different races is to add variety to the game both roleplay and mechanic wise. While I will agree that some of these ideas are unique, many of them essentially seem to mirror human/unathi/tajara stimuli with robotic flavour text stapled on.

I will agree that if balance is to be our priority, than IPCs could see a doseage of it. I will agree that humans are very well-balanced species. I will not agree that to make a race balanced they should become humans with a different skin and a few slight changes.

[Alberyk]

The radiation thing got fixed, I believe, they can't get free powers anymore, I am sure that rad storms can deal burn damage, that is why some of them can get burned.

 

This kind of irks me. How the heck are you supposed to be able to inject chemicals into a metal body anyway? Where does it go?

I always rp this as Zairjah pouring soda inside of itself using ports.

[Killerhurtz]

True - I didn't mean DEPARTMENT department, but more like how virology/surgery/xenobiology/toxins/atmospherics/cargo bay is very clearly defined while Robotics is mostly "that empty space next to Research" or just referred to as part of Research. Give people a legitimate reason beyond character reasons to play Robotics - make them able to do stuff instead of sitting around. Engineers generally got shit to fix, or improvements to do. Medical always has some dumbass who welded without goggles/used a chair and a fire extinguisher as a means of transportation/accidentally blew their arm off with an explosion/accidentally breathed plasma/accidentally got shot while training/so on. Science is SCIENCE for heaven's sake - at least, as far as I can tell, it's pretty much the word for "educated chucklefuckery" where you can do shit just to see what happens as long as it doesn't affect anyone who didn't sign for it - toxins can find new ways to break the gas code to make mega-bombs, xenobiology always can breed slimes. Virology can find shit (even though most people don't play virologists), atmospherics can always improve the atmospheric distribution network. Security is there purely for peacekeeping - there isn't much else productive they can do (except for that one security officer which joined science for antics when he wasn't needed). But robotics? It's pretty much the same routine: bitch at Research to get the data for the boards. Make two mechs. Then go to the bar/fuck around/do nothing/talk to scientists until someone needs a prosthesis or needs fixing because no one ever uses mechs or needs a body built.

Everyone but Security, again, has a fall-back solution when their department lulls down. Engineering has the Construction Area. Research has... everything that's inside Science (seriously I don't know how people get bored of science). Medical has virology/chemistry/preparing for the moment shit hits the fan. Xenobio has grey slime cores (that they can turn into more slimes) and the freedom of breeding what they want. Cargo is pretty much undocumented science from my experience (99% of the time they turn the cargo warehouse into a party room, some of them convert parts of maintenance into an apartment, they dick around with the machines and generally have a good time). Genetics never see the end of their work because the game always ends around the 3 hour mark. But robotics? There's nothing special they can do. They have no spare room to make a robot museum out of. They don't have enough materials, generally (because research sometimes doesn't share, and it's a moot point without mining) to warrant making spare parts for the station's synthetics. Unlike surgeons, who I have seen request protohumans from genetics so that they could train doing surgeries, robotics don't even have a proper way of making a full spare but inert cyborg to train replacing components (and is IPC surgery even a thing right now? Then again point moot because you can't actually make a spare IPC mob without an active brain I think). All of their work jobs are dictated by code. Once the mechs are built (if they're even built), they're stuck doing pretty much nothing until shit goes down. Hell - even if it doesn't happen, Aurora's robotics bay is by far the smallest of any server I've seen.

And they don't need every benefit countered, that's true. That's why they'd keep their brute damage resistance and immunity to biological issues - so they can still be the saviors of the station in a Level 5 biohazard while themselves needing help once in a while. And we can definitely pick-and-match what we want and don't want (and can't have). These tweaks, in my mind, turn them from 'OP killing machines that need to regulate themselves to be okay' to 'a synthetic species with strengths and weaknesses'.

Now, for the Science configs that would work with this new Robotics lab, I'd need to boot up the Dream Maker to actually make them because there's a few things I have to iron out (which, admittedly, involve two major problems: how to make a Robotics the size I'm picturing without disturbing two things: Genetics/Medical's position/access/size, and access to the shuttle dock. Because the way I see it, to keep the mech bay's access to the central hallway, it would most likely cut Research in half)

@Nebulaflare

I was thinking of having be a change in clothing myself. Maybe an ever-so-subtle change in the shape of the clothing they can wear?

And thanks for the cleverness comment. I also like the drunkenness (maybe highness?) idea very much - but as you said, it may be more humorous than useful.

Also, you're forgetting something. Sure, their processor is protected... but most cabling isn't, and most likely neither are their components. Interference through accessory alterations.

For the medicine idea - the way I see it, IPCs are robots with a sort of exoskeleton - all of their mobility components are inside their structure. The joints are weather-proofed - which makes them at least watertight (but, for lore reasons, not airtight otherwise we have to come up with a mumbo jumbo reason why IPCs can collect chemicals through smoke). And thus, injections happen at the softer rubber/watertight joints, and pool up inside the watertight body, getting everywhere - on the circuits and cabling, in the motors and sensors. Hence having it do damage to 'internal' components.

For the pressure, I'll most def need to check it out.

And I understand Nebula for not making them less resistant. But you're forgetting that, most likely, the units traded in rugged, nearly indestructible tools and body for a more precise, delicate and fast body - and that implies more vulnerable/fragile components. And shells don't need to be expensive - as a matter of fact, in my case, the only expensive parts on my IPC character is Sybil's shell for reasons - but her internat structure is literally made of spare parts - and with review of the lore for accuracy purposes, while it's not explicitly stated - it's not said that this does not happen. And hell - isn't Karima guilty of something like this? Or was DragonSnap built in a professional lab? I legitimately forget that detail. But anyway - my point is, unless they were specifically designed for industrial functions (like most station-bound units are), they most likely would not be as sturdy as a station-bound AI - just like a 3D printer is much more delicate than a car factory robotic arm. They're metal people, not tiny Ripleys or oversized engineering/security borgs. But then again - that depends on what sort of IPC we want, I suppose.

But glad you agree that wallrot should be a thing.

@LordFowl

I'm aware of what you're complaining about - but thing is, this is not a "do all of this". Instead of seeing it as a checklist, see it as a brainstorm map where we can take ideas on how to balance IPCs to custom tailor it to the vision of what it should be. They don't need to be slighly different humans - we can implement some of these while leaving some out to have something truly different. And yes, most of them DO try to emulate organic stimuli - and that's because we're trying to balance a machine to be part of an organic community and not be almost invulnerable.

But I completely agree that we should strike a balance between balance and variety - we should try to see what we want IPCs to be without them being completely overwhelming.

@Alberyk

While I know for a fact the genetics part of radstorms was fixed in IPCs, the damage part isn't - I stood outside of maintenance for a full radiation storm and did not get a single point of damage.

(Disclaimer: this is a post to answer everyone. I'm not defensive, I'm explaining so that we can come to a common agreement to make sure that this reflects the community in general.)

[Skull132]

A long list of thoughts ahead! I'll also try to poke Scopes and see about doing some of these soon. Also, SS13 uses asymmetric balance, so having 1:1 trade offs, which some of these ideas seem to be going for, aren't always the best. Having key, jutting out features for species is actually positive. Video on the topic:

 

Functional immortality

I'll just. Keep reading. *nod*

 

Ability to masquerade as/bypass whitelists of other races

Theoretically, we should trust folks to use the premise provided to them for something a little different. Not just cats that meow, or humans with a terminator mode and that's it.

 

Don't need food/can charge off any powered APC

This isn't really an issue. Food is easy enough to find, even for a hunam. I think this is actually a neat little thing that makes them different in a mechanically appreciated way.

 

Immunity to poison

Hnnnrg specificeffectsforjustasinglespeciesonahugelistofchemicals hnnnrg. To that list, though, I would add acids. At the very least, getting injected with acids and other corrosive agents should add burn damage. So yeh.

 

Immunity to suffocation

I'd keep this. They require an atmosphere which can facilitate their air cooling. Plus, everyone has an emergency O2 supply, while spaceworthy suits can be harder to come by.

 

Immunity to chemical/viral/bacterial/gaseous hazard

I really like the idea of tying some station-borne malfunctions to IPCs. Albeit, it seems a little silly.

 

Ease of repair

At first, I was a little hesitant whenever I read your reply to the "functional immortality thing". But now I can see this becoming rather interesting. It would also give the roboticists, the few that there are, more shit to do when an IPC gets bent over backwards and half-dedded. I am totes-ma-goats up for doing this.

 

Ease of limb replacement

See last.

 

Immunity to halloss

I would keep this. This is one of the few very major, and very important distinctions between IPCs and normal mobs. If we start chipping away at these as well, then we won't really have much left. Reference my pondering here, and the reply FFrances posted.

 

Immunity to paincrit

Again, I would keep this.

 

Ability to work as walking beakers/grenades (see: Mcmullen)

This isn't an outright bonus nor a buff. It's a sidegrade. A lot of the chemicals do not benefit them, and the only real reaction that you can use directly for your own benefit is the generation of harmful smoke. My only idea for enhancing this would be to have acids corrode away on the storage. But other than that, I'd say, let's keep it. It's neat.

EDIT: Tying this to an organ might be neat. Instead of taking outright damage, you damage the container inside of you. If the container is damage, it leaks. If the container is ded, you can't retain chems anymore.

 

Immune to pressure (not sure on this one, could be wrong)

They do take pressure damage. This is just overshadowed by their brute modifier, which makes it basically non-existent. They die of overheating a shit-tonne faster than they die of pressure.

 

Exempt from multiple harmful Ion Laws

I dooon't think that making them vulnurable to ion laws themselves is a good idea. But maybe something could happen whenever an ion storm strikes?

 

Typically exempt from Malf AIs' ire

Soooo, abuse it and kill the malfAIs until they realize they're being dumbshit by ignoring the IPCs? I don't see an issue with it: it's actually a rather neat chance to generate interesting RP. Seriously. Either betray the AI who's oblivious to you, or work against the crew. Or do a third move, and play some sort of half-assed middleman who's trying to sort out the situation. Seriously, this is actually really good. Everyone complains that lore is not being followed, and yet here we have the one instance where mechanic-supported lore is followed, and it's made into a detriment. Keeeep it!

 

Know tradeband by default (can support two secondary languages)

Um. Yes. They do. There are no issues with adding IPC languages. It's just that, we really don't want to give the IPCs their own language. Nor do we want to patch them into the AI's binary channel (if you're still asking why, then look over this thread, and the one linked as an introduction, seriously, you should figured out why we think it's a bad fucking idea). Sooo we just said "Fuck it", and tossed them an extra language due to their ability to absorb high amounts of knowledge very quickly.

 

They can't be flashed.

I waaant toooo chaaangeee thiiiis. And will ask Scopes once I finish with my current assignments.

 

They can't have their eyes stabbed.

Yay, more use for giving them a pseudo-organ system. Me-likey.

 

They don't suffer from radiation.

Last I checked, radiation DOES have a chance of giving them EMP damage. Maybe just up that chance. In real life, radiation fucks computer up.

I am unsure about radiation giving them EMP damage. I also know that we fixed them getting mutations. Basically, radiation, as it stands, does fuck all to them. I'd keep it that way, as a trade-off for being super vulnurable to EMPs?

 

They can't be affected by any changeling stings.

HNRG. I know this pain. But this is the hardest of all pains to deal with. No thoughts, unfortunately.

 

They take far less brute damage.

I'm honestly for just removing the modifier and making them on par with the rest of us on that count.

 

They take some extra seconds at no pressure before taking damage.

Remove brute modifier, receive profit.

 

They can't be affected by genetics shenanigans.

Both a positive and a negative: no genetic superpowers. Also a distinguishing feature, and they aren't the only race with this ability (DIonae!)

 

Personally, I think the .5 modifier to brute damage is actually ridiculous. It needs to be tuned to .8, so that punching an IPC isn't nearly as effective but melee weaponry can still stand a chance against a droid, and IPCs don't have their limbs be completely crippled instantaneously.

Remove brute modifier, receive profit.

 

Those are my thoughts.

[Killerhurtz]

First: WOO SKULL REPLIED

Second: I mostly agree - though there's a very important thing I want to make clear.

Harmful smoke is FAR from being the only way an IPC can use their beakeriness to be harmful.

There's harmful smoke, yes. There's also flash-powder (of which they aren't affected if they are the source of the reaction - and that's harmful even to other IPCs and ultra-ganky). And they can inconspicuously carry thermite (which doesn't turn up on a security search since it's inside them). And space lubricant foams. And enough metal foam to make a single block to stop access to somewhere on a pinch. And last, but not least, they can EASILY turn themselves into a potassium bomb.

Though, onwards to lesser comments:

-The malfunctions thing does not tie directly into station malfunctions - it's more of an idea that since the station and the vending machines can be affected by viruses, it makes sense for APCs to have a chance of carrying an IPC-compatible virus.

-I'm glad you liked my suggestion about IPC organ equivalents - though quick clarification, did you like or hate the idea for the chemicals?

-Completely agree on the malfAI thing. It's a roleplay issue, not a balance issue.

-The language issue is entirely fair - I saw it as a weakness myself, not having a language that does not have a chance of some random person knowing it.

-I agree with the radiation. It only makes sense for a space robot to be completely radiation-shielded. Plus, otherwise, who's going to fetch the organic dumb-asses who stay out during a radstorm?

-I agree with removing the brute damage, because of the fragile components.

-No genetics shenanigans - but I had another thread for possible IPC equivalent of it (disclaimer: I have no expectations, just saying it's there, and saying that if I learn to code I might do it) so who knows.

So yeah, thoughts to your thoughts.

(OMG skull replied with functional thoughts as a coder )

[Skull132]

Like, full on honesty: I just glanced over your list of specifics and noped away, as it was early in the morning. Although, I'm partially not in favour because it adds a, perhaps an overly nuanced mechanic? If such a thing can exist, I suppose. It just seems slightly silly to assign specific reactions to the majority of chems whenever they come into contact with an IPC. Hence my suggestion of keeping it stupid-simple: stuff that hurts you, like acids, will hurt you. This is personal opinion, though.

Also, I need to get back into actually playing this game. You just proved me rusty. Although, I did know of the potass bomb scenario, but I consider it a weakness: you see, every explosive reaction that takes place inside a mob should (I think, I haven't tested recently) stay inside the mob. At least, if it's chemical. So, a two shot of potass and water syringes is actually an effective way to combat an IPC, as they do not metabolize the chemicals away.

[Zidanyia]

IPCs not taking damage in space for awhile has to do with their heat level, not so much their brute mod. Unless they're not in a hardsuit, if that is what you're mentioning. That part is... working as intended, at least in terms of their intended design with the brute modifier.

What I doubt is intended is the heat level taking 25 seconds to spike up in a vacuum. I feel like IPCs would get worked up much faster than that with no coolant or exposure to nitrogen (or, at least, for the components of the chassis or w.e. to extract sufficient nitrogen from the air to use as sustained coolant, perhaps? that's a lore justification for mechanics, anyway). Might want to tweak either/both the rates of 'body' temperature spiking and their temp thresholds.

 

/datum/species/machine
name = "Machine"
name_plural = "machines"
icobase = 'icons/mob/human_races/r_machine.dmi'
deform = 'icons/mob/human_races/r_machine.dmi'
language = "Tradeband"
unarmed_type = /datum/unarmed_attack/punch
rarity_value = 2
eyes = "blank_eyes"
brute_mod = 0.5
burn_mod = 1
warning_low_pressure = 50
hazard_low_pressure = 0
cold_level_1 = 50
cold_level_2 = -1
cold_level_3 = -1
heat_level_1 = 500		//gives them about 25 seconds in space before taking damage
heat_level_2 = 1000
heat_level_3 = 2000
synth_temp_gain = 10 //this should cause IPCs to stabilize at ~80 C in a 20 C environment.
flags = IS_WHITELISTED | NO_BREATHE | NO_SCAN | NO_BLOOD | NO_PAIN | IS_SYNTHETIC | NO_POISON

 

Just for reference point for stuff

..Although, I gotta ask. What's the point of having a burn modifier referenced if it's default to 1 anyway? Might as well cut both out to save a couple lines, for machines, anyway.

'Organs', or rather, 'critical components' are easy enough to code in. Need sprites for vocabulators, central processors, control clusters, etc., though.

Also, viro code is a headache. Replicating that SPECIFICALLY for IPCs is... bleh. In-game, I feel like these synthetic viruses you're asking for will not be worth the trouble for in-game stuff. No idea, just my thoughts there.

[I_speak_money]

No one wants a resprited human. The reason people play IPC is become they sacrifice a number of different things to be capable of doing other things. Games don't counter every single benefit that a particular class can play. It's the reason why Team Fortress II is so much fun. Different combos lead to great/terrible results depending on the circumstance. If you start going around limiting IPCs, you might as well continue the hunt for the rest of the races as well.

[Killerhurtz]

@Skull

Yeah I figured that it was a not-good reaction. It's all good - I was throwing ideas out - though I entirely agree that all acids (all two of them?) should do that. And I *think* polytrinic already does... Though maybe, just maybe, we could add more acids for other, more specific purposes (like carbonic acid to etch windows into being tinted windows, or hydrogen peroxide to be used as an emergency replacement or a component to be able to make new ointment...) to balance it out if needed.

Also, I'll test the potass bomb scenario for you - but if I'm not mistaken, the IPC is not going to explode because for some odd reason I think chemical reactions that happen within an IPC don't affect it. But I'll report back on it - I have things to test on a private server anyway. And side note - even if the IPC DOES explode, it may not damage the head - and in the current codebase, if I'm not mistaken, an IPC head can be retrieved, the brain extracted and put in a new body, and it's alive again. And even if it's not - it's still a very powerful weapon to have, like for instance in Cult - if an IPC is converted, it can't use magic because it doesn't have blood* - so a suicide bomber is a good way to use it simply because of the amount of souls that can be collected. Also, here's a single reason why water+potass syringes are not a good weapon against IPCs - a particularly metagaming/powergaming IPC could store units of Tramadol, Sugar, Nitrogen and Silicon - and thus, any syringe of potassium will be neutralized to harmless dylovene, and any syringe of water will be neutralized to harmless paracetamol. That, or an IPC could just extract the syringe's contents from itself. It's easily counterable - and even if it's not, there's still the issue that it will most likely cause a small breach at 30 units of explosion (120 units of explosion is pretty much at the maximum power the server allows an explosion)

*I need to test out if an IPC that injects itself with blood - say, from a monkey or another person, could work around that

But yeah - I'll experiment with potass+water in IPCs and report back.

@Zidanya

I completely understand the viro part - from what I hear, there's a good amount of spaghetti code in the Baystation 12 source. But anyway - as you said, this is all theoretical.

As far as spriting goes, though - I volunteer. I'm good enough to at least be able to mold sprites together for the intended appearance, and I can easily learn to adapt to the SS13 style of graphics.

[Skull132]

I actually need to test the reaction claim, now.

I know that for human mobs, the explosion of potassium and water upon ingestion does not leave the body. I don't think. Maybe it changed. I need to test. FOR SCIENCE!

[Zidanyia]

I've done tests for it already.

Amusingly, you cannot inject more than 5 units at a time. 5-5 water/potassium ratio only does a minor knockdown to IPCs. With 50-50 by way of beakers, it just blows the fuck out of the beaker and does minor damage due to the brute modifier.

So, IPCs cannot process massive explosions or be powergamed for massive damage, outside of a measley 3 second stun.

[Killerhurtz]

Zidanyia - I'm having a memory blank, but I'm p. sure that with a bottle of drink (like Magm-Ale), you can do a 10-10 explosion. And again, not certain - but I think syringe guns (/pneumatic cannons) can deliver the full 15 units of a syringe to a target. And then there's the autoinjectors that have potential.

And for the massive explosion - I don't remember HOW I did it, but I made a 20-20 explosion one time within an IPC. It's enough to maim someone. And the whole point is moot just because they can carry potassium - someone can just hide a syringe, beaker and stuff to make a grenade somewhere close to a water tank, and BAM you got an IPC bomb delivery service.

Also, Skull - I'm glad that I got you to thirst for science

[Reyjakai]

So, IPCs cannot process massive explosions or be powergamed for massive damage, outside of a measley 3 second stun.

 

Clearly someone hasn't filled their chassis with flash powder, yet.

[Killerhurtz]

I was going to say that. I'm pretty sure that with all of the shit we did, Rey, we're among the most up-to-date people on what is and is not possible in-game XD

[Reyjakai]

I was going to say that. I'm pretty sure that with all of the shit we did, Rey, we're among the most up-to-date people on what is and is not possible in-game XD

Speaking of which, I found out that if you fill your chassis with 1000 units of liquid, you can spam drink bottled water and it'll never empty. It's great for annoying people.

[Skull132]

Oke. I was just given permission to go to town on this. There will be no survivors.

Nah, okay. Here's my plan for now:

• Make them flashable, maybe add a neat little sparking,
• Remove the brute modifier and see how that'll change fates,
  
• Start seeing about adding a small organ system to them, I need to figure out what organs exactly, though.

[Killerhurtz]

Alright, I've experimented, and here's the results:

-Syringe guns are LOUSY weapons. While they inject all 15 units of the syringe, a 15-15 potassium explosion deals, to an IPC, slightly less than 15 brute damage. And it has a small chance of knocking down neighboring mobs. Right now, only way a syringe gun could kill an IPC is with iron and uranium for an EMP within itself - but my test server crashed before I could test it and it was late.

-I can't repro the large potassium explosion. On the one hand, the explosion exits the body only very little. On the other, it doesn't even gib (they can't take pills, and any reaction consumes all reagent - so maximum I managed to do was a 10 explosion with space beer - as far as I can tell, it takes 40-45 units of both potassium and water for the gibbing to occur). It does very little damage to them though.

-Functionally speaking, injections are instant and pills are delayed. Not sure if it helps but there it is.

Also, I'M EXCITED SKULL YOU CAN'T BELIEVE (I'm pretty sure you'll have to ask Scopes to tell me to do it, but I'm more than glad to help for sprites )

The plan sounds like a solid start. If you want, I can make you a list of what organs an IPC should have, and for what reasons :3

[Skull132]

The plan sounds like a solid start. If you want, I can make you a list of what organs an IPC should have, and for what reasons :3

 

I am interested in what you have to pitch on that front. However, I advise sticking to the principle of K.I.S.S.: Keep It Simple, Stupid.

The way I see it, there's little need to add fluff organs, the function of which only becomes apparent whenever they're damaged or removed. My personal suggestion is to add to the existing brain and heart (whatever the fuck it's called -- it's a heart) a bladder for storing the chemicals, eyes and maybe like a radiator unit?

Update uno: It turns out, one reason why IPCs can't be flashed is their lack of an eye organ. So it looks like flash immunity wasn't even intentional, just a byproduct of something being overlooked. More to come.

Update deux: Coming up with a neat name for IPC eyes is apparently difficult. Now taking suggestions.

[Xelnagahunter]

As for the eyes, robotics legit just installs a camera to the head of a new Chassis. Using your KISS method, making a camera come back out makes the most sense.

[Skull132]

As for the eyes, robotics legit just installs a camera to the head of a new Chassis. Using your KISS method, making a camera come back out makes the most sense.

 

Difficult. Very difficult, as a camera is not technically an "organ". And mixing the two classes would most likely produce a bigger headache than is needed. The way I've got it set up right now is that the IPCs have a special subclass of normal eyes called "visual sensors". These can be produced by a mech fab.

And now that you remind me, perhaps whether or not a borg chassis becomes a shell can further be modified by swapping out the camera install for the eye install? That way, there is further distinction between producing the two types of machines which, in my book, is a positive.

[jackfractal]

Actually it's not that hard anymore! I built functionality into the organ code to do that kind of swap. Check out the 'exposed_to_world' function. You can swap the cyber organ for something else there. That's how you can pull posibrains and MMI's out of IPC's now, despite them not being organ objects.

EDIT: And the fun part is, you could make the camera damaged if the eyes are damaged, 'cause it's a robotics component and those have a damaged state.

[LordFowl]

IPCs could perhaps could have flashes be less effective, but they cause some damage to the optical receptor? The heart would of course be an internal power unit. (If it was removed the IPC wouldn't die, it'd just shut down pretty quick.) Some other potential ideas for organs are servomotor control, internal cooling (Destruction of which /would/ cause the IPC to die fairly rapidly from overheating ), the suggested chemical storage pod, and perhaps an organ for calibration.

Instead of IPCs being instagibbed by EMPs, it should damage/kill some/all of the organs first.