Staff Complaint - Garnascus(not really, but want to discuss)

[TechnoKat]

BYOND Key:

TechnoKat

Staff BYOND Key:

Garnascus

Reason for complaint:

I really think Garnascus had been doing rather a bit questionable modding. I have a couple of warnings from him, like arresting a changelling with ED bots that literally just woke the fuck up from a body bag, whilst a doctor ran off screaming for help. That time the round was ending, shuttle was coming in. Garnascus told me I should've went to command, questionned a dead walking body in first place, sent fax.. All in five minutes of round end coming in? What?

The second was when armoury was breached and all its contents literally stolen, managed to get a captain that round order a regular weapons crate with laser rifles on it, went EVA and kept warning people repeatedly in public DO NOT COME OR YOU'LL GET SHOT, with the captain doing so as well. An engineer just refused to and did it anyways, I came out and see him standing close, then running off as I shot him to paincrit, cuffed, taken to medical, had nothing on him, left him doing whatever again. Then, as time passed, apparently the guy I shot up was behind all of this armoury breaching anyways, killed the captain. I managed to pop his hardsuit before he spaced himself, dying in space. Garnascus said I should've aimed the gun instead, because that was unnecessary escalation of force?.. If you were warned don't get into a hostage situation, you'll get shot, would you do it?

Evidence/logs/etc:

None

Additional remarks:

Just want to discuss this and probably remove these warnings, as they seem unnecessary.

[Garnascus]

First one was not with any ED bots, you literally saw someone wake from the dead and your first instinct was to arrest them...really powergamey.

Second instant, im getting tired of debating this honestly, you do not have the authority as an officer to deliver that warning on green/blue alert but i could have forgone that due to maybe being an IC issue if you didnt just shoot him anyway. you are an officer and have multiple non-lethal ways of bringing an UNARMED person down and you chose to go for the non-lethal way. that he actually was the antag is irrelevant.

[TechnoKat]

First one was not with any ED bots, you literally saw someone wake from the dead and your first instinct was to arrest them...really powergamey.

Well, excuse me for not talking to a dead body and following SoP during ROUND END, I mean, what.

 

Second instant, im getting tired of debating this honestly, you do not have the authority as an officer to deliver that warning on green/blue alert but i could have forgone that due to maybe being an IC issue if you didnt just shoot him anyway. you are an officer and have multiple non-lethal ways of bringing an UNARMED person down and you chose to go for the non-lethal way. that he actually was the antag is irrelevant.

 

Does it matter if the person was unarmed? A high secure area was broken into, all the high risk items taken, do you think people can simply just risk it all and go accordingly how you wanted it to be? THE CAPTAIN KEPT ALSO SHOUTING THE SAME WARNING OVER AND OVER.

I chose to gun the player down without killing him with lethals, in what way do you think I was looking for an excuse to kill him for shits and giggles, when I literally took him instantly to medical after.

[Skull132]

I'll get to this shortly, over the next few days, as my work and sleep permit!

[Japak121]

First one was not with any ED bots, you literally saw someone wake from the dead and your first instinct was to arrest them...really powergamey.

Well, excuse me for not talking to a dead body and following SoP during ROUND END, I mean, what.

 

Hi.

I was that dead body/ling. I remember that situation. I was pulled out of cargo in a bodybag by an EMT/Doctor (Not 100% on the job title) and several others were around. As I was being dragged down the hall, I popped out and said something to the effect of "Uh..this is awkward." and the others nearby proceeded to freak out/question if I was really dead. You immediately set me to arrest and cuffed me and then dragged me to departures. No one in sec seemed to know what happened and you never followed up or told anyone else.

It's not even in SOP, but cmon, an cop, anywhere in the world, would want answers to what just happen. The logical thought process would likely be that the person was only near-death and that the medical professional/computer reported it wrong, or that a miracle had happened, or even a mutation. The last thing anyone would immediately do is slap cuffs on them and drag them away. It was powergaming, you saw me rise up and instantly knew I was a ling and that was that.

I hope this can clarify the situation in this regard.

[TechnoKat]

You woke up from a body bag, I didn't take it that you were a changeling instantly, but something fucking weird was going on.

Do you people always presume on the powergame and metagame, without knowing what you did was literally not in a security scenario training, so something SHOULD be done the least.

I don't know what a cop would do if he found out bodies were waking up and talking to him in a morgue. Or a bunch of body bags around a hallway, whatever.

[Killerhurtz]

Quick detail, about the second case:

I was the captain. That antag was NOT unarmed. They might not have had weapons visible, but they DID however have a laser carbine that was stolen from the Armory. Viktor was most likely aware of this as my body was found, headless and full of laser shots, in the vented, bombed place where disposals was broken not a minute after my death.

There's also the fact that the antag wandered in, close to a HIGHLY SECURE location, after several warnings of a heightened alert in that area. That's like wandering close to a military base right after a major assault happened. You won't be escorted out, you're going to get shot.

[Garnascus]

Im willing to renege a bit on the second point... however i feel like we are looking for ways to justify it so much and not really examining that firing lethals at someone should be actively discouraged. especially for an engineer that would have cause to be there and appeared unarmed. That he was actually armed and the antag after all (which i knew since im a staff member) is irrelavent in my opinion.

[Skull132]

Okay, the first situation. Is it odd to say that it would have been had you killed the antag, and not just set them to arrest, cuffed them, and taken them away? Like, get with me on this one: you saw someone rise from the dead. An antagonist, someone your character probably knew was evil (or didn't, whatever, point stands). And your immediate reaction, as an armed individual, is to do a series of complex actions, instead of just, wailing at them with a baton? It's a really odd point to present, but I hope you're getting me on this one.

The second point is the result of a recommendation given by myself. So here's the thing. You do not escalate situations like that. A single warning, which can be missed easily enough, addressed to the general public is not, has not, will never be enough to nearly off someone. Why? Because escalation of force. Had it been blue alert and the captain posted a public announcement, over the red system intecom text, okay, maybe. But not over a security officer going, "NONONO, DON'T DO THIS!" They were not armed, they had their ID, they had plausible cause to be out in space (being an engineer and all). You pull them over first, and give them a chance to comply, instead of engaging with lethal arms. Had they ignored a direct verbal or jest related warning (you pulling the weapon on them), then yeah, sure. But going ham on them right off the bat was unjustified. What's worse -- you were mistaken. So you nearly put someone who wasn't deserving into a coffin. This is not an acceptable standard of security.

[Killerhurtz]

Except Skull, THAT HAPPENED. It WAS code blue, and I (the Captain) DID post a big red warning, if I remember correctly, before repeating it over public comms about six times (plus three extra on Engineering, plus one more time when they explicitly asked me if they could go there. It literally went like "Can I go fix the armory?" "Well, I'm not going to stop you, but you know you're going to get shot") and it happened anyway. So it's not a question of forewarning - there was a metric kilofuckton of warning over and over, even directly to them.

And because it's relevant (it's a resolved issue), did I mention that said engineer, after they got shot (and taken to the medbay to heal by the one who shot them even though it meant abandoning their post at investigating the vented armory), took me by surprise while I was trying to coordinate something (since I stayed in the Bridge after I set up the alert and announcement, in case something else needed to be done like call an ERT via fax), shot me 'till I was critical AND decapitated me before throwing all of my stuff (except my ID of course) down a disposal that lead to a bombed, vented area (which the antag damn well knew)? As I said, it's been resolved by I don't remember who (the judgement was that it was not gank and was justified, but DID go overboard). And it is perfectly fine by me, because there WAS some precedent that I failed to see.

[Frances]

Yeah, I was observing and I can confirm the engineer who was shot was informed by their colleagues they were probably going to be shot, and only went in (with full knowledge of that) because they were the antag who originally looted the armory, and likely wanted to see what was up/confront security.

They didn't walk into trouble unexpectedly and suddenly *bam*.

[Killerhurtz]

Frances, it wasn't their colleague.

It was the Captain, speaking on the Engineering channel

[Skull132]

Well, this is embarrassing. While assessing the issue, the only thing that I was able to dicern was that Techno issued warnings over general chat. Which I still maintain isn't enough on their own. At no point was I aware of the fact that what Hurtz said took place.

Welp. Since the warning, I think it was a warning? Was technically issued while acting under my direction, I'll go and delete it. Apologies about that one.

[TechnoKat]

At the point I said to people I'll shoot them on sight if I see them,I did NOT mean outright kill them. I've played security in Aurora for a good year now, I've been doing some great cult rounds keeping players in game and have fun, I mean, a lot of times(except when I'm nukeop). Taking entire station most of times, however I hated how they all just kept blabbing about calling on Nar'Sie, when we could have a badass station temple.

I took the engineer after she was put down, searched her quickly and took to medical. As I found nothing was on her, I decided to release her, only to again, find out that she was literally all behind this. Garnascus was bwoinking me at the time I dragged her to medical, luckily he told me to go ahead and do what I was going for. Then I got issued warning after a talk when she got healed.

When I found out she killed the captain, I was hunting for her out in space, as I found her, she retaliated, I popped her hardsuit several times and then she spaced herself, dying in progress. Stated in security channel she's KIA and lost, then went to call the shuttle, regardless if the station was working. The only reason was that several people died and lost some ways of being brought back to round. Especially the captain.

[EORhappiness]

As much of a butthead techno can be, I really don't think he would just flat out shoot somone with no warning Especially with the monolithic amount of warnings over his head as is. MY veiw on this is that - A warning was issued, Engineer knew full well of the warning, Techno Did Exactly what he said he would in his warning, He even took the Engineer to Medical afterwords- And I get the vibe if Techno was Trying to be a shitler he probably wouldn't have done that.

However...

I'm unfortunately inclined to say that the ling bit is pretty much powergame it's really kind of a senseless move to arrest someone who just popped up from a body-bag as there are multiple explanations for that (Even IC and ingame reasons there are a couple meds that can make someone appear dead for a while) and- I understand that Security personnel might not know that- But nonetheless, the first step of any normal, average person if someone popped up from the seemingly dead would be what? NOT arrest them, it would be to get them checked out by medical A-S-A-P. This is anything but SOP and definitely not what someones first reaction should be in a situation. I think Garnascus did the perfectly acceptable thing in this situation, If it was myself who had to deal with it, I would have probably issued a Sec-ban at this point given past history, but its not my place to do so nor do I even want the ability and responsibility of being /able/ to do so.

All in all, I really think this is just another Status Quo and I think it would be best to leave it as such on both ends.

[Frances]

Techno is currently forumbanned, but wished to reply to EORhappiness. Given that this is a thread he initiated and EOR's comment is directly aimed at his actions, I thought this was a reasonable request. Here's his post:

 

The station was already departing and I had like five minutes to make my choice. Garnascus told me that I should've interrogated, faxed and taken to medical.. All in five minutes?.. I was standing there and talking to the ling for a moment before adjusting sunglasses, then the EDs came and we all went to shuttle, after arrest, with two minutes left until depart. I could say round was ending and nothing really bad happened?..

[EORhappiness]

Techno is currently forumbanned, but wished to reply to EORhappiness. Given that this is a thread he initiated and EOR's comment is directly aimed at his actions, I thought this was a reasonable request. Here's his post:

 

The station was already departing and I had like five minutes to make my choice. Garnascus told me that I should've interrogated, faxed and taken to medical.. All in five minutes?.. I was standing there and talking to the ling for a moment before adjusting sunglasses, then the EDs came and we all went to shuttle, after arrest, with two minutes left until depart. I could say round was ending and nothing really bad happened?..

 

Regardless- Even if the fax could not have been made an arrest shouldnt have either- The person in question should have been escorted back to the odin for medical evaluation on site- Not been put in cuffs.

[Skull132]

Complaint marked as resolved, as per this post and the reply to it. Archiving.