Ban Request - RussianArmDealer, InquisitorJohn

[Guest]

BYOND Key: OneOneThreeEight

Accused Players Byond Key: Player of Katya (RussianArmDealer), InquisitorJohn, who plays Hypatia

Time of Act: 5:00PM~ EST.

Reason for Ban: Chucklefucking, self-antagonizing, little effort to roleplay over the past week, IPC whitelist abuse.

Evidence: Sorry for doubling up on this, but these two have shown themselves to be awful examples of IPC whitelist holders for just about the same reasons.

Today, during a changeling round, I and Serveris6 were playing our securiskrell brothers and attempting to the best of our ability to roleplay and set a good example for security. The round comes to a close as people vote to end the round, and what transpires remains to be the dumbest thing I've seen this month.

While there was a fair deal of self-antagonizing, chucklefucking and horridly low levels of effort put into roleplay on the side of bald newfriends causing trouble as the shuttle was coming, two folks stuck out the most, as they hold the privilege of being able to play a different race on the server, which has much different roleplay expectations than those who play humans.

In particular, Katya the IPC-Taj-Shell was intentionally chucklefucking with lockers and screwing with the chef's locker of food, who happened to be Hypatia at the time of this round. I flashed them, and realized I was all out of cuffs by the time I was able to stun them. I hailed my skrellbro over to assist, and another officer decided to pepperspray the both of us out of spite and complete disregard that we were doing our jobs in keeping the peace. After arresting Officer Tweedlefuck, Katya strolls up in an attempt to punch me to submission. I flash them and neckgrab them this time, and they get slapped in cuffs.

Katya is detained at this point, though I'm resisting the urge to gib off one of their legs so that they can stop unbuckling and running. It was end of round, so I didn't escalate to that point in fear of being hit with an EOR ban. After the shuttle docks, they manage to unbuckle themselves and start running around the Odin station. Katya has self-antagonized several times before in this manner, and there was no reason at all for a non-antag IPC to lash out and malfunction like this.

Hypatia decided to chase around Jun Ivanova who was fucking around on a cargo tug, and they used a wrench to attempt to knock off Ivanova from the tug. They critically hit Ivanova, so I chased after them and had them detained. They themselves had no reason at all to assault Ivanova with a heavy, unwieldy wrench in the head that could crack skulls if used right.

Hypatia has been a problem character for awhile now, an extreme example of shitcurity. They've openly validhunted antagonists, they're extremely aggressive for what amounts to be, once again, no fathomable reason whatsoever.

There are way more examples with Hypatia that I do not have first-hand accounts to report about. I've heard nothing but awful things about them for the past week and I am starting to wonder if it holds any merit to it.

Neither of these folks deserve their IPC whitelists at this point. They set a terrible example for what it means to be whitelist holders as IPCs, and I request that those whitelists be at the very least be stripped so that people understand that this sort of behavior as an IPC is unacceptable for the state of the server and for roleplay.

[Blizzard]

Given that I scarcely play with Russian, or Katya, anymore (we barely know each other IC), I'll give my side of the story; meaning, the Jun issue

The situation at hand is that of Jun constantly driving the cargo tug around. Hypatia was standing idly, with her locker full of food open, for everyone to grab something to eat before the shuttle arrived. Katya continously kept stuffing herself in and all, yes. After she was detained, Hypatia stood beside her locker. Jun came with her tug, and pushed Hypatia in. Hypatia removed herself, standed idly, only for Jun to come and push her in again. This happened many, many, many, /many/ times more. Hypatia grew tired of Jun, and threatened that she would whack her head if she kept on doing it. And thus, she kept on doing it. Hypatia's patience was tried, and she whacked Jun off as she got close. One hit to the head, nothing more, nothing less. 1138's character immediately rushed for Hypatia as soon as she spoke, "Maybe that was a bit too strong." She flashed her down with no hesitation. The only thing Hypatia did was whack Jun once to make her stop pushing her around, which, really doesn't warrant a ban. Though, that is simply myo pinion. No warnings or anything of the sort were issued to me for this, by any admin, moderator, or anything of the sort.

I want to point out 1138's character behaviour, however. I'd like to highlight how he constantly flashed Hypatia, over and over, due to the lack of cuffs. Hypatia screamed that she wanted to comply, but nevertheless, she was not allowed to. All she recieved was flashing, until 1138's flash broke. After this, he simply tabled Hypatia over and over, until someone paid attention to him and handed him over some cuffs. Hypatia screamed a mixture of wanting to comply, and that 1138's actions were an excessive use of force. Regardless, nobody paid attention. It was only when the shuttle arrived to Odin and 1138 dashed out of the shuttle without Hypatia that his securiskrell brother had a very brief conversation with Hypatia and allowed her to comply, thus, walk beside him as they made their way to the holding cells.

 

 

I would also like to add something from a more lore-wise perspective. I've consulted with a Skrell player regarding the very use of force by 1138's character. I was told that Skrell officers are prone to using the least amount of force and the most reasonable amount of force required to detain a suspect. This conflicts with 1138's character behaviour. Hypatia was almost instantly stunned as soon as she whacked Jun off the tug, and after that, she was repeatedly and repeatedly flashed, as she screamed and shouted to allow her to comply. Yet 1138's character ignored this. Even when Hypatia did not pose a general threat, even when she was standing still and admitting her mistake with the "Maybe that was a bit too strong," escalation of force was applied.

For the time being, I have nothing else to say. I'll be glad to respond to any further argument.

[Guest]

Do note that I had been dealing with the same sort of players that same round that were goofing off and needlessly attacking each other in escape. I was personally watching for instigators of attack logs. Context was not important to me at the time, restoring order and stopping people from getting EOR banned was. Were it not round end, I would've escalated a little more sensibly. There was a matter of urgency in trying to make sure all conflict stops by the time the shuttle arrives so that people aren't ganked or beaten to death needlessly (so that they can get a chance to play the next round, maybe?), and that is a responsibility I took.

If you had not taken matters into your own hands and decided to play vigilante to "teach Jun a lesson for being a dick to me", then perhaps you wouldn't have been slapped for escalating force excessively?

If you had not done anything, Jun would've been thrown off the cart and into the shuttle brig cell, not you.

If you had said something (or rather, PDA, since it sticks out more in a crowd compared to one sentence in a giant flood of escape dialogue) to the securiskrells who were watching for troublemakers, we would've knocked her on her ass and made her pay for that instead. But you did not, you took matters into your own hands thinking it was the best possible solution.

I was not paying attention to dialogue as several words were flooding my chatbox at the same time. You were detained because you were instigating legitimate, red-text conflict. It needed to stop.

The other securiskrell officer was tasked with making sure you didn't fly out the airlock like Katya did when the shuttle docked. I would've spoken to you more if Katya, Jun, and Mark Syion were not providing unnecessary distractions to me.

This was filed in 'ban request' because I believe at minimum you need to be OOCly disciplined/warned for the sum of the parts that makes up for Hypatia, because you've acted in very unprofessional, thoughtless ways before as that character, and I've heard a good deal of complaining that you have done things that ruin rounds for other people, and I've witnessed some of it myself.

 

Even when Hypatia did not pose a general threat, even when she was standing still and admitting her mistake with the "Maybe that was a bit too strong," escalation of force was applied.

 

You are thinking that anyone should hold back in detaining you after you impulsively decided to strike Ivanova with a wrench. Just because you realized "Oh shit, shouldn't have done that", doesn't exactly make it forgiven nor excused. You made the decision to strike her rather than looking for an optional solution. Consequences arose from you making that decision, and they were doled out by someone who was looking for behavior that looked the tiniest bit like violence or assault.

You all know better, and yet you folks think it's alright to assault each other and think that nothing will come of it.

Right now, I am not so sure of you. Katya is a very different story, as I've seen them needlessly attack me before as a captain during mutiny when they were a non-mutineer for no reason at all while screaming "fuk NT!!11one".

[Blizzard]

You are not to put your judgement of other players on others simply because they were causing trouble. If you call whacking Jun to stop trying to run her over being a vigilante, then, whatever floats your boat. However, this does not justify that you escalated force needlessly, specifically, when Hypatia was not repeatedly trying to crack open Jun's skull, was not trying to run away (stood still, even) or fend you off in any way. The initial stun is justifiable. People were being dumb, situation had to be controlled, however, even after the shuttle docked and all conflict had ceased, you kept on flashing and flashing, tabling and tabling, while Hypatia begged to be able to cooperate. This chance was not given to her. The suspect was compliant, and defensive tactics were employed to her regardless. It still falls under Excessive Use of Force in Detainment, and saying that people were fucking around is no valid excuse. I do not ask that you should hug Hypatia, give her a cookie and tell her to come along, but rather, simply not use the most violent way to detain her.

You've heard of people complaining about me. You've seen me win fights, lose fights, be detained, detain people. Are you letting your argument be biased by hearsay, and let your argument be openly biased by it? Do you think I should be banned from this server? What makes you think so? What about my fun? Can I not enjoy fun? Am I to solely let people enjoy abusing of my character and not stand up for it? Is that what fun means on the Aurora?

[Garnascus]

As a note, I had no way at the time to delay the round. Admins where AFK I had to plash catchup after round restart with all the chucklefucking. Jon ivanova is going to dealt with the absurd cargo tug display. as delta says however there was quite a degree of self-antagging going on even after the shuttle had docked at the odin. It was a very shifty situation and I unfortunately lost most of the ckeys involved.

Was delta over the line in force? Sure, but you have to understand the situation at the time John. There's no time for RP or even reading chat when people are throwing cleaner grenades, throwing punches, disarm spamming, and of course the cargo tug running around. It was wrong of you to begin with to hit Jon with a wrench when you should have oust let us deal with me or ahelp about them (and people did).

Now, as for Katy i can confirm pretty much all what delta said about me and when I see them in game ill send a PM to post their defense here.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Hello, this was recently brought to my attention by moderation staff because the question of whitelists became involved.

Now, Jackfractual is the former synthetic species overseer, but he resigned following his departure from SS13. Since his departure the responsibility of the race has defaulted back to me.

He's still here with us in spirit, but not physically. However, I had discussions with him about the standards of the IPC race. He was very strongly of the opinion that most of these issues are simply things to be pitched to the DO Corps or admins, and the behavior treated as if it was done by a human - basically, it's difficult to strip a whitelist. I didn't fully agree with the mindset, but it was presented well and I didn't want to go over his head.

However, I have my own standards that have to be met, and if these standards are met, we can have a conversation about whitelists.

1) Can you prove that the mechanics of the race were being abused to gain an advantage with bad-rp?

2) Would their behavior have been impossible if they weren't IPC's? Can you prove it was them specifically being IPC's that lead to the problems?

3) Is it a failure to play a character consistent with the standards for the species, or is it a failure to be consistent with the general rules?

[Guest]

There was an instance during that nuke round a few days ago where the ops pretended to be wrestlers. Not a few minutes after their arrival and announcement that they were wrestlers, Hypatia said into their security headset that the warden should crack out the carbines and pass them out to officers.

I also do not believe it is a matter of whether it would've been impossible were they only humans, it's a matter of the player(s) in particular not living up to their roleplay expectations and needlessly assaulting other humans over petty shit. Unique, line model or not, IPCs would be programmed to avoid physically harming or assaulting organics. I'm not talking strictly about laws, but I figure IPCs would be programmed with "common sense" and "morality" subroutines to stop them from being grimdark edgy killing machines.

The issue is, is that IPCs were given perhaps too much freedom and the roleplay standards that IPCs have seem to be much looser than that of humans, yet they are protected as organics are all the same.

No offense to their player or anything, but there was a goofy meme IPC called GREAT GENES which was basically a cosplay of hulked geneticist characters. They embody everything that the ss13 hulk stereotype is, they are loud, they think they can punch people through walls, they think they can punch THROUGH walls, and so on. It was funny for the few times it was played, for some people it got old fast, and for others they thought it was pretty kekworthy. The bottom line is, though, it would seem that this specific character wasn't disallowed, and nor were the antics that they engaged in, so Hive wasn't poked for it or anything.

Same concept for Hypatia. They're confrontational, over-aggressive, rude, argumentative, arrogant, and so on. They literally embody a typical asshole human. The issue with this is that just because it doesn't break the rules for being this sort of character, does not mean that the state of roleplay does not suffer for having every single IPC on the station act like they are human and have no self-awareness of it whatsoever.

The character is often in roles in which it can use force to fight off any sort of RP discrimination against its own race. It does not seem to care about consequence because it usually goes out of its way to robust its bringer before it comes to fruit. And then it decides to be sassy, judgmental and disrespectful of anyone they think to be incompetent. And that could be just because this character doesn't like them, not because their boss is actually stupid.

Katya is another thing, I don't think I can really come up with an argument past "this IPC literally goes out of its way to chucklefuck, borderline grief and attack people who try to stop it from chucklefucking", because that's all that's really needed imo.

I already heard from one of your loredevs that IPC RP standards are going to be a subject of debate for awhile, but the focus of this "ban request" is more me seeking action being taken upon people who willingly defy all reason to carry out unfathomable conflict on other characters, whether those characters deserve it or not. It sets an awful example and it should not repeat.

[Blizzard]

To leave a note; my mindset during that nuke round was simply the following. The Icarus announced that a ship bypassed them and was headed right for the NSS Aurora. A ship that was not scheduled for a visit anytime. Unknown visitors. The Icarus stated that the ship wasn't armed, meaning, the ship didn't have nuke-cannons on each side. You expect Security to not give a single damn about an unscheduled ship that managed to bypass Icarus, and to welcome them with open arms. Hypatia requested riot armor and shield to have at hand when welcoming the visitors, and not to mention, the two other officers in Security at that time did not care about the visitors and were busy ordering pizza, or something along those lines. Thus, Hypatia had to welcome the visitors on her own. And nevertheless, she went only with her taser. All the nuclear operatives did was dress ridiculously, get force gloves, and start a half-the-station disarm brawl with force gloves. Hypatia tried to stop it. All she got? Disarming, flying over due to the gloves, and her equipment was even snatched. This went on for minutes, on and on. Hypatia tried to push down the operatives and cuff them. But what happened? Another came, force gloved, and ran off. Over and over. Nearly fifteen minutes into the brawl, one of your operatives came with a stun rod, and outright murdered Jun Ivanova, in front of Hypatia, and ran off. That's when Hypatia switched to empty-hand control techniques. She originally intended to first use soft technique, meaning, scriptly grab an operative by the neck to restrain them. But the pushing continued. And when Hypatia switched to hard technique and downed the operative with punches, another came, and gunned her down.

 

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

 

Is this on the Aurora wiki? You should not be punching people as an officer.

EDIT:

I checked our wiki. This information is not present anywhere. You are using Baystations' wiki, of which we don't use because this is not baystation.

[Blizzard]

 

Is this on the Aurora wiki? You should not be punching people as an officer.

EDIT:

I checked our wiki. This information is not present anywhere. You are using Baystations' wiki, of which we don't use because this is not baystation.

 

I consulted with a lore developer whether to write a book using this as a guide http://www.nij.gov/topics/law-enforcement/officer-safety/use-of-force/pages/continuum.aspx would be appropiate, and thus, was told it would be alright.

[Frances]

I feel like this should follow common sense, but as far as goodsec/badsec goes:

• -Punches are not okay when you have another non-lethal means of disarming your opponent (flash, baton, taser, pepperspray, flashbang)
  
  -Punches are okay when all of your non-lethal weapons have been rendered ineffective or taken from you and the individual you wish to neutralize represents a direct threat to somebody

(Obvious exceptions apply, say if your character had any reason to lose their cool (their partner just got killed, they get nervous facing a really big threat, rookie losing their calm), but expect IC repercussions if appropriate.)

Like this is pretty much how sec combat should work (and I dare anyone to correct me on this). Due to SS13's mechanics (you can only really hope to incapacitate people through physical beatdowns by bringing them to death's doorway) it's not a generally accepted tactic to subdue troublemakers via fisticuffs. Unless you have no choice.

However, since Hypatia's equipment was stolen in this case, and she had due cause to subdue the operatives (one had committed murder), I don't really see what the big deal here is.

[RussianArmsDealer]

I support this ban request.

[SierraKomodo]

Right. As the person who was playing AI for the wrestle-ops round, and got to watch what happened while reporting things to security... Nuke ops showed up, shouting on comms about their wrestling matches. At some point, while I was bouncing around checking on everyone, I noticed one of the nukeops and Ivanova were engaged in a push-war, which I was under the impression was a consented wrestling match - Nobody was harmed on sensors so I made a note of it and moved on. I came back later when sec radio said Ivanova was dead, to find one of the ops had decapitated Jun, and Hypatia was trying to subdue them on her own.

I wasn't monitoring this non-stop, but the tidbits I did see, it looked like Hypatia hadn't actually started fighting until after they'd already killed Ivanova.

[RussianArmsDealer]

Alright. In all serious I support this ban request To a Degree. At-least for me. When it comes to Hypatia it's more technical.

I'm currently banned for OOC continuation of salt and Marine copypasta. Fair's fair. What I would like to raise is that I'd like to be properly talked to with concerning things like: My "Chucklefucking", and the rest. And given ways I can not be a complete prat.

When it comes to whitelist approval, in my own honest opinion this is an admin situation. Not a lore situation. Katya is a Heavy Cyborg, not an IPC. Her programming is not strictly "I'm a HAL-9000 without laws", she is effectively a human with a robotic brain casing and body. If I am wrong on this opinion. I'd greatly appreciate correction on this.

I'm going to opt in on a much more laid back style when I go on aurora. Or try to. Because, in the end: Y u heff 2 be med? (

)

I also apologize for the grief I caused for you and your skrellcurity colleague.

[coolbc2000]

Y'all just had to fucking bring me into this my mentioning Mark didn't ja?

Riiight.. I am at work so lets make this short.

First off. I am going to talk about these brothers... First and foremost they like to abuse and go over the top when arresting people. So... There is a guy in the hallway wanted for murder. The officer has his taser out, first thing that I do is I give the guy to the count of 10. 10 seconds pass and I flash the guy. Immediate I get peppersprayed by the skrell his acuse was "he was complying" in the time before and IN the fucking 10 seconds they did not even mention this. They brigged me, total ignored the captains order to let me go.

Second scene. The murder turns into a monkey. I unload. Clip of taser rounds into but it escapes. I get fucking abused in coms because I let it go (mind you, we knew it could escape and I asked if we could weld the vent, but no.)

thrid and final scene. The shuttle is inbound and kat is being weird and hiding in a locker(not the first time) Then for some unknown reason to me, hypatia just keeps getting fucking flashed. He even asked his brother for another flash because they both did not have cuffs. I begged them to take my cuffs but they ignored me. I proceed to pepperspray them ( also for some sweet revenge) but I get arrested which is understandable.

So fuck you all for dragging me into this, and have a nice christmas ye basterds

[Guest]

I'm going to ask for this to be closed, as it's the holidays. If I find another instance that's actually particularly damning and still consistent with previous behavior as witnessed, then we'll see how that goes.

Happy holidays.

[Shadow]

Locking and archiving per OPs request.