Staff Complaint - Garnascus

[CampinKiller]

BYOND Key: CampinKiller

Staff BYOND Key: Garnascus

Reason for complaint: Warning me for EOR Grief, for roleplaying a beating of a prisoner who had murdered myself earlier and was being a problem, because it occurred on the shuttle, and after allowing said person to get away with what was basically gank as a ling, and saying it was completely fine. Also, I was told this is where I dispute admin rulings for the already-mentioned gank incident.

Evidence/logs/etc: Gank Incident:

https://gyazo.com/03e1070824fb35b3d78f899f837c8956

https://gyazo.com/1741e4de049f40b46d06f57c1d8ee9b4

What occurred here was that Security was called to a crime scene involving a dead officer. I, respond, along with the Detective. The group of engineers who were lings show us the scene, and then, without a word, or anything, shove us down and attack us, and kill us without any remote amount of roleplay other than the initial 'Hey, we've found a body' (which they actually had). Garn, on the other hand, said it was not gank, because they planned it out and had executed an ambush, despite the completely lack of actual roleplay involved.

"EOR Grief"

https://gyazo.com/6eed012f1ebc5d46e57ba0656e6c56a3

https://gyazo.com/141604ae425ab2525450918fa89f15e0

https://gyazo.com/e914242467163ecf92b289937c7de688

https://gyazo.com/b6a85e2db519045baca399f60c945348

https://gyazo.com/92ef6727116b602a8b8705b9a25146d1

Then I get warned for EOR grief by Garn, because I roleplay out beating someone who Price knows IC'ly had a role in killing him earlier in the round. Please note that it was...4 telebaton hits, and the person was being a nuisance regardless. Basically, what I've gathered from Garn's two actions here, is that ganking is a-okay, and roleplaying out a beating is not, just because it happens on the shuttle.

Additional remarks: Not really.

[Garnascus]

In my opinion. There is a huge difference between a "gank" and an ambush. After investigating this particular incident I found that the lines coordinated in hive chat to take you guys out. They called you specifically to an area without witnesses or cameras on the premise of "hey someone was murdered here".

It is, I think a lot different than an antag pulling out a rifle and gunning down departures. There was planning to this and a reason for your murder. The reason being getting rid of the HaS and obtaining his DNA. I can understand being angry at this though. I would be too but I think this is just an unfortunate case of you being collateral.

The above issue contains some Grey areas and some controversial elements I think. The incident on the shuttle however is pretty open and shut. The emergency shuttle docked and you beat a prisoner who was cuffed so I warned you. Its...that simple in my opinion. Its one of those rules we can't really make allowances for.

That being said the shuttle isn't a magic safe zone. You can still arrest people.

[Jboy2000000]

Garn, this is the second time you've let something go because its a "gray area" and you think it isn't gank, when it very clearly is. This is literally no different than one person standing behind a door, waiting for someone to walk in, and then instantly killing them. Why is it any different because THEY RPed among themselves? The point of antags are to enhance the enjoyment of OTHERS. Very clearly, walking into a room in getting jumped for no reason, with no RP is not contributing to anyone's enjoyment, they just wanted to kill security members for the sake of there being less security.

The EoR warning though, I think that's pretty valid. You are supposed to stop any and all conflict once the shuttle gets there. But, since it had a very valid, IC reason, Im glad he wasn't banned outright for it.

[Garnascus]

The victims got some interaction out of it too. They got notified of a crime scene and the HoS himself shows up with only a detective. He was called there so he could get ambushed. There's a lot of ways security could have handled this situation "better".

I just don't think this was gank.

[Jboy2000000]

The character in question is a physical threat to you (he is armed or can be reasonably expected to be armed) and catches you in an illegal or otherwise compromising act.

The character in question fails to comply with your demands (for example, he yells for security over his headset despite being aimed at and told to remain silent).

 

Was security a threat to them? No. They were armed, but they had no reasons to make themselves a threat to the people who called them.

Were they failing to comply to their demands? Well, no, because they didn't say a thing to them at all.

So. They met no criteria to Doomberg's rules set about killing characters with no RP, which they did not give to either of the players, no matter what you think Garn. I have more examples to give, but times restraints.

[Garnascus]

You cant cite rules on gank when i dont consider it a gank in the first place... I said in my first post that i think theres a huge difference between gank and ambush. I also spent some time saying there was RP.

[CampinKiller]

The thing is, the only RP that took place prior to it was among themselves, and that was just planning it. There was 0 interaction with us (other than, "here's the scene and the body"), and 0 reason to actually ambush us, other than "Kek we need genome food." By that logic, it wouldn't be gank to plan to ambush anyone who walked into arrivals, because we planned it among ourselves.

[Susan]

I walked into the room and then immediately started getting stabbed in the face without so much as a word or recognition.

Antagonists are here to make the round enjoyable. They didn't. They killed me for literally no reason, without any interaction beyond 'here's where we found the body' *repeated stabbing in the face*

It was absolute shit, and the lack of culpability for being terrible antags is part of the reason I stopped playing on Aurora.

Take that as you will.

[Chaznoodles]

It was absolute shit, and the lack of culpability for being terrible antags

 

That's your opinion, don't throw it around as though it's fact.

As far as I can see, with what was talked about in this thread, the antags roleplayed it out fairly. Just because there was no roleplay with you doesn't mean there was no roleplay at all.

Also, if it happened in the shuttle, it's EOR grief full stop. Lucky you didn't get slapped with a ban as per the usual cases. Garn's in the right here, stop acting entitled as a player.

[Jboy2000000]

You cant cite rules on gank when i dont consider the rules in the first place...

 

Basically what you said. I wasn't cutting a rule on a subset of gank, I was citing it because that rule says it IS gank.

Also to what Chaz said, let's look at the main, big bold text rule for antags is. Make the round enjoyable for OTHERS. If they RPed among themselves, tell me, where is the enjoyment of OTHERS?

[Jboy2000000]

You cant cite rules on gank when i dont consider the rules in the first place...

 

Basically what you said. I wasn't cutting a rule on a subset of gank, I was citing it because that rule says it IS gank.

Also to what Chaz said, let's look at the main, big bold text rule for antags is. Make the round enjoyable for OTHERS. If they RPed among themselves, tell me, where is the enjoyment of OTHERS?

[Chaznoodles]

Also to what Chaz said, let's look at the main, big bold text rule for antags is. Make the round enjoyable for OTHERS. If they RPed among themselves, tell me, where is the enjoyment of OTHERS?

 

Right under the part where the antagonists worked together as a team, I believe, thereby creating a challenge for the crew to be overcome. You died, so what? That's part of roleplay. Unexpected things happen and you deal with it. If you're complaining about things not going your way, then maybe roleplay isn't for you. SS13 is about everything going spectacularly wrong.

[CampinKiller]

Yes, dying is part of roleplay. However, killing two people with minimal prior interaction is ganking. I think I'd been in the round for about 10 minutes (interrupted by the call of nature), when I get wordlessly ambushed and killed, for little reason more than "lel, killing is fun." Killing myself and the detective didn't advance the roleplay of the round at all. We were killed for the sake of being killed, and there was a completely lack of roleplay. Hell, the entire ambush was "stab the detective, shove the HoS, and kill them both without a word." Real enjoyable. This is after these same people tag-team ganked the CE 10 minutes into the round (per ghosts and said CE)

[Jboy2000000]

Yes Chaz, we know they worked together, that's great, we've beaten a dead horse completely raw, but those are the antags, where have they provided anything to OTHERS, people who are NOT antags, the people they are MEANT to entertain? Beside being killers, what are they providing to ANYONE? Give me one paint answer to that question.

[Guest Complete Garbage]

I don't care to comment on the whole, "Was it a gank" thing, but I was the beaten prisoner in question, and I feel what Marc/Campin did wasn't EOG.

[Jboy2000000]

Right. Now that I have the time and ability to do so, I went looking through the rules.

 

No ganking. While antags will sometimes kill, it is expected for you to provide interesting roleplay to your targets first,

 

Now, let me highlight something I feel is important here.

 

No ganking. While antags will sometimes kill, it is expected for you to provide interesting roleplay to your targets first,

 

Only resort to killing if it makes sense. Randomly killing someone because you’re a traitor will get you removed right quick.

 

Also this bit here. This was an random as a killing gets, with literally nothing applied to the victims, as the rule above said they should have.

And a previous point I made,

 

The character in question is a physical threat to you (he is armed or can be reasonably expected to be armed) and catches you in an illegal or otherwise compromising act.

The character in question fails to comply with your demands (for example, he yells for security over his headset despite being aimed at and told to remain silent).

 

So, within the boundaries of our rules, how is what happened here, NOT gank?

[Dumplinz]

Well I can definitely tell you the reasoning would easily be getting a Head of Security's DNA/Eliminating a Key leadership role which would cause security to be in some what disarray, Additionally a Head of Security shouldn't really investigate any scene, he should relay that to his officers.

As far as being an Antag and making the round fun for others, I would like to point out it doesn't say Everyone. For instance, I was a changling at one point and I lured someone into chemical storage, ended up killing him after talking shortly, Then someone walked in as I was killing the person. I was forced to kill the person who walked in because otherwise I would have been caught via the headset. It was unfortunate, but it had to be done to prevent being caught, there wasn't significant roleplay at the time but it was understandable given the circumstances.

Anywho, Antags are suppose to present a fun challenge to the Station, rarely will you be killed and say "Wow! what an amazing rp experience!" you are just the cost of there being an Antag sometimes. Amazingly enough you were cloned, so it wasn't even the end of your round there, Ganking sucks, I think everyone agrees, But don't act like death is a last resort option for antags, or that there must be an amazing storyline to why an antag is killing you.

As for the End of round grief, that's pretty hilarious, actually. I mean beyond beating a prisoner in cuffs, which would get you suspended out of most departments, Your "RP" is related to being killed after the fact, when cloning is suppose to revert you to the start of the round? I mean, yeah, you're lucky you didn't get in too much trouble for the EoR grief, I get being in the mindset of the character and choosing what they would do, but the rule is pretty strict on that part. otherwise, the "gank" killing, I don't believe you have any ground to stand on.

[hivefleetchicken]

I'm gonna' jump in for a second because I don't think there are enough people here with enough real thoughts to find out what the hell happened and why it happened. If it's not warranted, please remove my post and jboy's and dumplinz.

I'm on Garn's side 100%.

To start, this was not gank in the slightest. In fact, I see this done all the time on changeling rounds. This is completely normal.

Let me explain why. The lings RP'd the setup for it fine. They were in character. They can't just go around singing and RPing to every player they want. At a point, they will hit what I call the red zone. Where they are FORCED to powergame and kill without words to keep the other side from powergaming right back. I'll prove how this is in fact a thing, but first, let's look at the options of the lings. They already have a small group of officers ready for the killing, and they've decided on this ambush for a while. They can:

1. Start performing monologues and trust fucking security AND Ana Roh'hi'tin to not just shoot them in the face.

2. Kill the officers discretely, quickly, cleanly, and still talk to eachother to keep their own selves alive.

3. Not have any communication with eachother and run around the station shooting assistants and cargo technicians in the head and run off without absorbing them.

Situation 1 is a thing that people used to do until sec turned into a powergaming faucet of bullshit. Ana Roh'hi'tin played a big part in making antags too competitive for 100% fun. I remember there being tons of situations where Ana just sat in space with a sniper and shot all the antags in the back, and I remember seeing her do this in countless other antag roles. That was something that made many antags too scared to try to trust their victims to RP back. This situation happening in itself is the fault of security for being so god damn hell bent on winning. Nowadays if people even try to perform an action of 'me stabs you in the back' most sec players will just spam pepperspray and cuff, then permabrig.

Situation 2 is what they chose, and it worked. Situation 2 is what everyone in this thread has chosen, and to call it gank is ridiculous. They weren't just going to let you kill them and take their time. They had a plan to lure the bad guys into maint and kill them, they executed it in a way that prevented the enemy from just taking advantage of their mercy, and it worked! Why get mad? To get killed by something so quickly and silently sounds like a real rush tbh. Props to the lings.

Situation 3 is gank, just for a fair comparison. It's killing just for the sake of killing, offering not a word to the enemy even though they face no tactical threat. Now, I predict these engineers absorbed sec, and gank lings don't absorb people.

Anyways, now that that's out of the way, the EoR grief. Unfortunately, you just can't do that, and that's where that ends. If they're cuffed, that's even more of a reason for admins to immediately stop you, and even ban you for three days. Not only that, but FOUR telebaton hits? You couldn't just stop at one and RP the rest?

From an outsider's view looking in, it seems to me that this is an instance in which sec played the powergame and lost the duel, and got mad as a result. They got cloned, and instantly bolted to exact justice on their murderers for satisfaction, regardless that it was EoR. That's just not allowed, and you should be grateful Garn didn't just ban you.

I stand with Garn and Dumplinz.

[Skull132]

I'm curious (though 90% of what I wanted to write was already written by Dumplinz and Hive just now), and so, do answer me this question.

Let's say the engineers lure you into a place where they can take care of you. In the present situation, they just offed you the moment they have you enseird. Now, let's say hypothetically, they didn't. The situation is frozen at where the engineers met up with sec. What would you have had them do, in order for your deaths to be "valid"? Or would you have they just not target you at all?

And as a note for all of you "By the books" folks. Ambushes are not mentioned at all in the rules. Just because something isn't outright permitted by the rules, doesn't mean it can be blanket denied. Antags would turn into a laughing stock if they had a silly quota of me-ing and monologue-ing to fill out before they could off someone.

As for the EOR incident.

Were the other effects of going loopy via CMD played out as well, prior to that fact? Or did it kinda just, go from 0 to max on the shuttle?

[Jboy2000000]

Yes Skull, ambushes aren't covered by the rules. But you know what is? What I pointed out above. What did they do? They broke the rules mentioned above. Lets see what they did.

 

https://gyazo.com/03e1070824fb35b3d78f899f837c8956

https://gyazo.com/1741e4de049f40b46d06f57c1d8ee9b4

No ganking. While antags will sometimes kill, it is expected for you to provide interesting roleplay to your targets first,

https://gyazo.com/1741e4de049f40b46d06f57c1d8ee9b4

it is expected for you to provide interesting roleplay to your targets first,

Don't see any of that.

The character in question is a physical threat to you (he is armed or can be reasonably expected to be armed) and catches you in an illegal or otherwise compromising act.

https://gyazo.com/03e1070824fb35b3d78f899f837c8956

Nope, they were told to come, and invited.

Only resort to killing if it makes sense. Randomly killing someone because you’re a traitor will get you removed right quick.

https://gyazo.com/03e1070824fb35b3d78f899f837c8956

https://gyazo.com/1741e4de049f40b46d06f57c1d8ee9b4

Where is any of these presented logs does it show that these killings were anything random killings, with no RP garnered, but rather just an attempt to get more DNA, and hinder security so they can have more rein?

But don't act like death is a last resort option for antags, or that there must be an amazing storyline to why an antag is killing you.

No, we don't say that, buuuut-

No ganking. While antags will sometimes kill, it is expected for you to provide interesting roleplay to your targets first,

Are there exceptions?

The character in question is a physical threat to you (he is armed or can be reasonably expected to be armed) and catches you in an illegal or otherwise compromising act.

The character in question fails to comply with your demands (for example, he yells for security over his headset despite being aimed at and told to remain silent).

Yes! Did this happening follow either criteria? Well, look above...

From an outsider's view looking in, it seems to me that this is an instance in which sec played the powergame and lost the duel, and got mad as a result.

Can you explain how you see what SECURITY did here as powergaming? From every piece of evidence we see, it says that the LINGS were playing-to-win here.

Where they are FORCED to powergame and kill without words to keep the other side from powergaming right back.

But you agree what they did WAS powergaming, you just think they shouldn't be punished because... Reasonz? I also hate your flawed logic following this, about how they need to powergame because everyone can just assume, OOCly, that everyoe else will just power game, so theres a giant buttfucking loop of ganking, powergaming and playing-to-win. The fact they were 'forced' to powergame doesn't excuse them.

Being an antagonist does not exempt you from any server rules.

[Skull132]

You didn't answer my question. Please answer my question.

 

What would you have had them do, in order for your deaths to be "valid"? Or would you have they just not target you at all?

 

And here's the issue. Were the rules enforced 100% to the letter, as you present them, we may as well remove antags completely. Because they would be impossible to play.

[Jboy2000000]

My idea of valid is this: Are they a threat to your continued life span in game? Kill them, if you must. This is also reflected by the rules.

Okay. If you don't follow the rules to the letter, how exactly do you follow them? Because what they did broke nearly every rule to the letter. If breaking one, two, three, four rules laid out isn't enough to garner any sort of punishment, what is cause for it?

[Skull132]

You realize that lings have to kill people who are not a threat, yes? It is literally their mode of gameplay: they must target people. As such, trying to force the rule of, "You can only kill people who are a threat to your livelyhood," is very backwards.

[Jboy2000000]

You asked what my criteria would be for making SECURITY valid, not just anyone in general.

Yes, lings need to kill people, I have been linged, many, many, many times. You know what they never, ever did? This. You know what they did instead? They RPed with me, Im sure thats a very novel idea, but lets go along with it for now. They were characters my characters happened to knew, trusted, loved. We talked like normal, walked around the station, out of sight for a second sometimes. Thats when they did it. You know why I don't mind being linged like that? Because they put effort in it to involve ME, and take to account MY enjoyment. What happened in this situation?

[hivefleetchicken]

But you agree what they did WAS powergaming, you just think they shouldn't be punished because... Reasonz? I also hate your flawed logic following this, about how they need to powergame because everyone can just assume, OOCly, that everyoe else will just power game, so theres a giant buttfucking loop of ganking, powergaming and playing-to-win. The fact they were 'forced' to powergame doesn't excuse them.

 

If you want to ban them for powergaming then ban everyone. Endless loops of powergaming is actually the homeostasis you want to keep, and something we have always had and everyone here does, because that's natural everywhere, not just in ss13. It's the foundation of competition, and as long as we have players playing to win, or complete research, or make mechs, or make chemicals, or protect the crew, powergame will always repeat itself in a huge ever expanding loop.

I hate your flawed logic that you think a founding principal of nature is just some "flawed logic" that I thought of. Next thing I know you're going to tell me that the earth is flat.