Staff Complaint - Garnascus

[hivefleetchicken]

Please explain, then, how the ambush that involved no rp prior to the killing of two people is not gank?

Read my post. Or Skull's. Or Dumplinz's. It's not gank because your deaths were part of a larger scale of RP. Had they bombed you at round start, or ran around with guns and shot you dead without absorbing you, or done anything even close to that, it would be gank. But what happened to you was merely a quick, deliberate killing blow. You seriously can't expect those guys to just perform a full RP fight with two sec members in the middle of a ling round, right? :L

 

how non-antags did anything wrong in that scenario other than expect to actually be roleplayed with?

Garn isn't saying you guys did anything wrong at that event. What you did wrong was beeline for departures to punch a handcuffed guy just to feel satisfaction right after getting cloned.

[Garnascus]

Garn, you say the other two events were valid, but very, very obviously a big portion of people disagree. With good reason. I didn't want to bring up the past, but you are the single most controversial admin to ever grace Aurora, a total of eight complaints against you. You're quickly becoming the Techno of staff. Every single of of your complaints stem from you making poor decisions, poor calls like this, before you were evena real admin, people were complaining about exactly this kind of thing since you were a trial mod.

 

Just because complaints get made against me doesnt mean they are valid. Most of them i was either found to be in the right or i changed my mind after some discussion. sorry jboy but you dont hold a monopoly on whats great and whats poor. "poor decisions" = "decisions i dont agree with"

[Garnascus]

Also let me go into a bit more detail on why i made that comment about the focus on who did what wrong. I think if security had taken more appropriate measures the situation wouldnt have turned out so badly for them. Such as not sending the HoS to the scene. Perhaps ordering all the engineers away before entering. maintaining control of the situation somehow so that they cant just get the jump on you like that.

You didnt do anything wrong as far as rules go of course. i just think its more reasonable to focus on what you could have done better than screaming at the lings for "gank" =\

[Guest Complete Garbage]

Garn isn't saying you guys did anything wrong at that event. What you did wrong was beeline for departures to punch a handcuffed guy just to feel satisfaction right after getting cloned.

 

Not entirely true: I was the prisoner in question, and he was with me at escape almost the whole time. (He brought me there, actually.) I was in the shuttle, and I was, admittedly, being a nuisance. I believe it is understandable why his character would want to do such a thing. It should also be of note that when Camp said, "Four times," he meant total, none of them were in direct sequence. Just wanted to clear that up; I still believe it's rather salty to keep pressing this, when plenty of arguments (valid ones, at that) have been presented.

[CampinKiller]

Also let me go into a bit more detail on why i made that comment about the focus on who did what wrong. I think if security had taken more appropriate measures the situation wouldnt have turned out so badly for them. Such as not sending the HoS to the scene. Perhaps ordering all the engineers away before entering. maintaining control of the situation somehow so that they cant just get the jump on you like that.

You didnt do anything wrong as far as rules go of course. i just think its more reasonable to focus on what you could have done better than screaming at the lings for "gank" =\

 

I'll look at this from two perspectives - IC and OOC.

IC'ly, I came down there because Marc is a hands-on guy, and it was an officer who had been reported dead (and confirmed by Medical, who had his body). We suspected Rin may have been involved, or at least looted his body, given that she had spoken on the Security comms, and so I ordered an officer to come detain her for a search. Considering the CE was a head of staff, and had to give me access to the area, there was no IC reason for me to suspect anyone of being involved, except Rin, who stayed away, so ordering people away made no sense, especially considering the scene had already been contaminated. There was no situation to control. It was, quite literally, a wordless ambush, with no interaction except the minimal 'Here's where we found the body and his stuff.' However, if this is an admin now saying that Security should be validing and have institutional paranoia like they're the KGB, then that's an interesting change.

From an OOC standpoint, I knew damn well that Rin was probably involved in the death, and thought that when they initially failed to disarm me it was an accident due to intent, or she was trying to get by (which is a way that Rin gets by people is just shoving them, from personal experience), and I thought that because, again, there had been minimal prior interaction to even suspect I was about to be wordlessly choked out and killed. And, had I told them to get the hell out when I needed their access, or been acting extremely defensive, I'd have been blatantly metagaming/powergaming myself. Let's also consider the reverse. If the Engineers were Security, and they just wordlessly ambushed two antags, how quickly would a complaint have been posted, and people lambasting them as "Shitcurity" and "powergamers?"

 

It's not gank because your deaths were part of a larger scale of RP.

 

Except there was no larger scale RP. They were killing for the sake of killing. As I and others have mentioned, these people literally wordlessly ambushed the CE 10 minutes into the round, for no reason, except to kill someone. There was no underlying progression of the roleplay. Their 'larger scale of RP' ended 10 minutes later when they were all arrested because a borg had snapped a picture of them standing there, and then (at least for one person) became the normal 'welp, time to become a monkey and fuck about until I die' while the other two changed their voice to be annoying over the radio. Quality RP, that.

Also, I'd been cloned for over an hour when the final whacks on the shuttle occurred, as the prisoner was making a nuisance of himself, and, in Marc's eyes, "resisting."

[Garnascus]

yes, there was larger scale RP. Going after the CE 10 minutes into the round in that situation was shit and we dealt with it. At this point we are kinda just going in circles, i havent seen anything as of yet to convince me otherwise.

[CampinKiller]

If your definition of larger scale RP is the monkey fucking about, and sitting in the Brig until the end of the shift, then that is a really, really, liberal definition.

[Guest Complete Garbage]

If your definition of larger scale RP is the monkey fucking about, and sitting in the Brig until the end of the shift, then that is a really, really, liberal definition.

 

Just because we got arrested and were unable to carry out the endgame ling stuff, doesn't mean we weren't building up for potential RP. From what I can tell, your argument here is literally, "They didn't do anything after! I don't care if they were arrested!" Also, I understand the beating thing, as prisoner discipline, especially because at that point you would have known we weren't crew, but I don't see how Marc ICly would have thought, "Oh, being a dick in general is resisting!" I was fully compliant, Marc should have been able to see that. Even when I regen'd in disposals, and the cuffs came off, I made a point of staying still as you recuffed me.

[Jboy2000000]

Well Garn, we're sure doing much more to defend our position than you are. Here's how you've defended what you've so so far.

"Im right, you're wrong."

Everyone else here has actually looked at the rules, cited references, other events, stuff that could prove you're wrong. I surely hope you know what you said to me applies to you as well, because it feels like you think the exact opposite.

[Garnascus]

you're citing rules that dont apply to this situation and arguing for the letter without understanding why the rule exists in the first place. Theres such an enormous gap in our arguments. you keep saying "everyone" like its the whole server against me when theres a fair amount of people on my side. This shouldnt be about "sides" in the first place though. The bottom line is i feel the situation contributed enough to the larger RP game as a whole to make it valid, i do not consider "ambushes" to be "ganks".

[Jboy2000000]

I say everyone else, meaning the people who do not agree with you. And at least I and others are trying. Where is your support for anything you've said in the slightest beside saying "I don't think," "I don't agree?" You have just as many gaps as you claim I do, you say Im citing rules that don't apply to this situation, so explain to me exactly why it does not beside for the excuse that you don't agree with it. Explain to me exactly what you saw before, during and after these events that made you say this was alright. Because the only thing me, Sue, and Camp see is two people being killed, and then cloned. Explain to me exactly what about that gives enough interaction to the masses of the station to make this excusable.

[Guest Complete Garbage]

Well Garn, we're sure doing much more to defend our position than you are. Here's how you've defended what you've so so far.

"Im right, you're wrong."

Everyone else here has actually looked at the rules, cited references, other events, stuff that could prove you're wrong. I surely hope you know what you said to me applies to you as well, because it feels like you think the exact opposite.

 

I honestly don't see how that's relevant. If you don't see argument coming from a particular person, address someone else's. This forum isn't designed for personal attacks or agressive/passive-aggressive remarks. Please keep your posts mature. We're here to discuss a certain event, which can be achieved without acting like a child.

[Jboy2000000]

We are here to discuss an event, but it seems the only person worth having an argument with at this point is Garn himself, because obviously the opinions of others aren't going to sway anything he says.

[hivefleetchicken]

sarcastic rudeness

 

Sorry if this is diverging onto a tangent, but...

Honestly dude, what the fuck is your problem with Garn?

It's 100% obvious you've got something going on with him outside of this complaint due to the fact that you mock all of his defenses as 'invalid opinions' as though they have no value to them, and won't actually take the time to back off and remain unbiased. The complaint wasn't even by you, so your overzealous aggressiveness really sticks out.

You're being rude and unfair. Stop it now.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Guest

[Guest Complete Garbage]

Still, there has been a massive amount of salt and aggression over the past seven pages of replies. I hate to bring up the "it's just a game" argument, because I know how dismissive it sounds, and this particular community takes the game very seriously, but there's no reason there needs to be this much strife over one round. And I mean everyone, on both sides. A number of replies have been calm and presented arguments in an acceptable manner, which I appreciate, but there is no reason anyone, on either side, should be as aggressive as in some of the comments I've observed.

[hivefleetchicken]

Still, there has been a massive amount of salt and aggression over the past seven pages of replies. I hate to bring up the "it's just a game" argument, because I know how dismissive it sounds, and this particular community takes the game very seriously, but there's no reason there needs to be this much strife over one round. And I mean everyone, on both sides. A number of replies have been calm and presented arguments in an acceptable manner, which I appreciate, but there is no reason anyone, on either side, should be as aggressive as in some of the comments I've observed.

 

I second this.

I can admit to using a fiery rhetoric to possibly drag more emotional (and as a given, more sincere) posts from the others so I can find out what the real deal here is, because it's obvious this argument is now expanding into something more along the lines of OOC salt than anything else.

The problem is that someone has more of a grudge against someone else than he is willing to let on....

[Skull132]

For it to not have been them blatantly ganking us, I'd have extended the RP, or at least done something more than showing us a place and wordlessly attacking us. Hell, we weren't a threat to finding them out or anything at the time, as they'd been all over the crime scene, and we told them that. What I would've done was let us examine the scene, and head off, and then call us back down a little later and say they'd found something of interest. At that point they would've actually roleplayed some with us, instead of calling us to an actual crime scene, then wordlessly killing the two of us. The incident reeked of blatantly playing to win and killing for the sake of 'lel, we need more than the people we've killed, so let's gank.'

 

Here is my issue with this. The requirement you pose is completely and utterly arbitrary. What tangible difference in roleplay does it make, if they let you do a little investigation dance and then call you back in again to murder you then? Target to victim RP is only ever interesting and involving if it's made personal, a situation like this isn't personal, nor should there exist a blanket requirement making it personal (lest we railroad people into picking option number 1 of the two I pointed out earlier).

 

How either situation makes the round interesting and actually involves roleplaying with the victims, I have no idea.

 

Two questions in one. How either situation makes the round interesting:

Your deaths contributed towards the antagonist's power, which he is then expected to use to make the round interesting for everyone else. If he simply hides all the corpses and only slurps on them for the victory points, then it's gank and shit roleplay. If he, later in the round, presents himself as a threat to the station and RPs with the rest of the crew, then the deaths were probably well served.

How to make it interesting for the victims:

Unless they're personally motivated murders, you always can't. But certain gamemodes simply require them to happen.

[CampinKiller]

Well, considering their immediate moves after killing us were to disable sensors and begin hiding everything...I didn't see an overall point to what they were contributing, and still don't.

Most of the time when I get killed by an antag, it's interesting, (not necessarily the manner of death, but the way it's RP'd out) it really advances the roleplay in some way...but slurping the HoS and then immediately going to disable sensors and begin cleaning up (which would've worked had a borg not shown up suddenly) doesn't. Hell, we found the CE later in the round the same way. Dead and everything hidden away. I don't mean to suggest antags leave their dirty laundry out in the open, but at the same time, what the heck does killing people and hiding everything accomplish? In this case, it just damned them to confinement as soon as we found the other bodies, and they were already detained because of the borg showing up. I understand they might've had plans later in the round, but considering that their first kill of the CE involved wordlessly whacking him, then wordlessly whacking two Security members doesn't exactly make me believe they did have plans other than just killing people for the sake of killing.

[Skull132]

You're still thinking relative to yourself, and only relative to yourself. Did they create roleplay for the rest of the crew later down the line? Whether or not it involved your bodies, or your deaths, directly, is irrelevant.

[CampinKiller]

To an extent, they created the roleplay of Security arresting them, searching them, and keeping them detained. I'm not sure what all went on in perma since I wasn't there all the time, but I know they were screwing about on the radio with their voice changing, and one became a monkey and tried to escape before getting lasered to death.

[Jboy2000000]

sarcastic rudeness

 

Sorry if this is diverging onto a tangent, but...

Honestly dude, what the fuck is your problem with Garn?

It's 100% obvious you've got something going on with him outside of this complaint due to the fact that you mock all of his defenses as 'invalid opinions' as though they have no value to them, and won't actually take the time to back off and remain unbiased. The complaint wasn't even by you, so your overzealous aggressiveness really sticks out.

You're being rude and unfair. Stop it now.

 

Im not mocking all of his defenses, Im saying he has no defenses. Which is completely valid since he hasn't given any.

And I have no problem with Garn, I have a problem with anyone who doesn't abide by the rules. My only bias is to the rules, by the rules. If I appear rude, well them Im sorry, it's only because Im trying to be fair, when others aren't.

[Garnascus]

In my opinion. There is a huge difference between a "gank" and an ambush. After investigating this particular incident I found that the lines coordinated in hive chat to take you guys out. They called you specifically to an area without witnesses or cameras on the premise of "hey someone was murdered here"..

 

Its really not that complex of an issue Jboy, it was literally my first post. Ambushes arent outlined in our rules so i have to make a judgement call on the situation. Antags formulated a plan to take out some security members to transition to endgame. In this case it was the HoS plus a detective(i think?). The executed the plan and...it worked, security lost, successful ambush is successful.

NOW the crew has to deal with two security members missing and going like "oh shit wheres the HoS?". If you where watching the round the HoS eventually got cloned and launched an investigation into the string of mysterious murders until finally brigging all three of the lings. I think this would have been a great round if both security and the lings didnt take to OOC so much to complain but thats neither he nor their.

[Jboy2000000]

Garn, nothing is clearly outlined in the rules. If you want to say that as long as people will notice, "Oh, hey, someone is missing" that means killing anyone, at any moment, in anyway at all is valid and completely fair. That also means that anytime some random schmuck going SSD somewhere remote is something that should really excite the entire station.

What would happen if a tator assistant wrenched a doctor unconscious and then killed them? Well, the station has to deal with a missing doctor, it's okay. The assistant thought of a way to kill them, wrench their head until RNG beats them unconscious, cable tie so they can't call for help, and then drag them off and kill them.

How would that event be any different from what happened here?

[Garnascus]

Garn, nothing is clearly outlined in the rules.

 

Correct, and this is a good thing. Enforcing the letter of the rules and having super strict rules outlining literally everything is objectively bad. Whats much more effective is having a decent set of core values or rules and then using your judgement to decide on the grey areas. I like to ask myself "is this decision in line with the spirit of this server" the answer to this question is much more important to me than what the actual rule says.

No do not try to take that as me saying "I AM THE LAW" because im not, nor do i want to hear "then why even have rules?" we are both more intelligent than that. What im saying is the whole picture and the context of every variable is important. In your scenario you listed it might be ok and it might now be. It depends on how the round went and the interaction up until then. I am also not really interested in debating "what if" scenarios.

[Susan]

I'm sorry, Skull.

You're completely and utterly full of shit, as is Garnascus for thinking this to be 'valid'.

What overarching RP, Skull? What literal overarching RP? We died, Medical cloned us within ten minutes and not too long after that we hoarded them about and shoved them into prison when it was made painfully obvious they were the only ones who could have killed us, anyway. They interacted with no one else. There was no grand plan, no advanced roleplay. It's the same fucking shit every god damn Changeling ever does when they get arrested because we can't valid them since they regenerate.

Sit there, bucklecuffed, entirely disregarding any roleplay or pain and spam hallucinogen stings or voice transformation. In this case, that's exactly what happened. They didn't do a single fucking interesting or unique thing. It is the same shit from every Changeling round. Research wasn't involved. Medical was only barely involved. There was no in-depth scenarios created by this. It was just them being chucklefucks and murderboning because they could.

And don't you dare pin this on security. I'm sorry for actually trying to include people in roleplay, unlike some people. But I forgot in my absence from Aurora we've devolved into Goonstation-tier roleplay standards, so I don't know what I expected. In the future, Garnascus, I'll make sure to treat everyone as if they're an antag and shove them out of any roleplay and scene because they'll valid me sooner or later. Thank you for clearing this entire situation up for me. I know my folly was expecting sporting behavior from my fellow players; instead, I must assume they're all TG-reject mongoloids and treat them as such.

I've seen the error of my ways.

Edit: I'd also like to point out the lings were going to space-cleaner up all the blood, disabled our sensors purposely and were going to stuff us in some fuck-off closet so we'd never be found.

 

If he simply hides all the corpses and only slurps on them for the victory points, then it's gank and shit roleplay.