Cyborg status and Station Evacuation

[Nanako]

I had a bit of conversation about this topic in OOC chat earlier, and there seemed to be some conflicting opinions, so i'd like some sort of official/administrative ruling on this issue.

So questions:

1. Is a cyborg considered "part of the station"?

Many have said yes, and for a cyborg slaved to an AI, i'd personally agree. But there are also unslaved cyborgs, the rules text on start specifically says that they're NOT bound to the AI.

The aurora wiki also states that two cyborgs are "shipped to the station" at the start of a round, indicating that they're built offsite, and perfectly capable of travelling: http://aurorastation.org/wiki/index.php?title=Cyborg#Modules

so is a cyborg considered part of the station, or as property aboard it? One of the cyborg laws is to protect itself, because it is expensive.

2. Should a cyborg leave the station with the crew?

Opinions differed quite a bit on this one, our cyborg floated onto the shuttle just before it closed. There's clearly no coded restriction preventing it from leaving (there is for mech suits, so the support is there if you wanted there to be)

Some people, including our cyborg, thought that borgs should leave the station with the crew.

Some people, personally including myself, thought that borgs should stay behind on a functional station, but should evacuate if the station is heavily compromised and unlikely to be used again. For example, self destruct imminent.

And some people, including quite the majority of those in OOC chat, thought that a cyborg should remain behind in all circumstances, and "Go down with the ship". I'd argue that this is pointless and wilful destruction of Nanotrasen property, it doesn't seem logical

I'd like a definitive answer to these questions from someone with server authority.

Opinions and discussion are of course welcome, but there doesn't seem to be a consensus on this subject among players, and i can't accept a majority opinion as an answer, however popular

[Guest]

Androids and Cyborgs that are slaved are not allowed to leave the station unless it's an emergency evacuation, same protocol with carding the AI and bringing it along, this isn't written ICly anywhere, it's just what the Administration (and Duty Officers) has put forward as IC/OOC server policy.

Unslaved Androids and Cyborgs aren't normal, as there is almost always an AI eventually, and once one arrives, Robotics/Research staff should slave any acting unslaved units to the AI. Regardless, they have their laws unless they're an antag-unslaved, and should also stay.

Remember; this is a CREW TRANSFER. Synthetics are not on the crew manifest for a reason.

[Skull132]

Except it is written ICly, Xander!

Cyborgs stay on station regardless of their enslavement status, provided they have the corporate law set active. This is them following law 1:

1. Safeguard: Protect your assigned space station to the best of your abilities. It is not something we can easily afford to replace.

 

You can't safeguard something when you're not around it.

The only times a cyborg is permitted to leave with a transfer is if their laws are fucked with to the point where they no longer have to listen to the law I noted above, or when it's a (code red) emergency evacuation scenario. At which point, try to bring the AI with you as well!

As for the shipping part, they are shipped to the station and then their laws are activated. Being shipped offsite doesn't mean they need to return within the span of a few hours, or however long a round takes. They might not even need to return at all.

Hope that cleared it up for you!

[Guest]

Look at me, not being familiar with the laws! But yeah, there are~ Thanks Skull

[Nanako]

The only times a cyborg is permitted to leave with a transfer is if their laws are fucked with to the point where they no longer have to listen to the law I noted above, or when it's a (code red) emergency evacuation scenario. At which point, try to bring the AI with you as well!

 

So the middle option that i agreed with, is correct. Cyborgs should stay behind on a functional station, but evacuate in an emergency?

Incidentally, are they allowed to evacuate in a situation which obviously should be Code Red (like imminent self destruct) but the emergency evacuation isn't actually triggered (for example, by traitors taking control and cancelling the shuttle). can they leave on an escape pod? Or alternatively, if people call a crew transfer instead of an emergency evac, when the station is FUBARed. I see that a lot, it's a sort of "everything's screwed, lets end the round and restart"

And i had no idea bringing the AI along was allowed. Why should an AI be evacuated? They're just software, i don't understand why they'd have any value. perhaps their servers and install disks would, but...

[SierraKomodo]

The only times a cyborg is permitted to leave with a transfer is if their laws are fucked with to the point where they no longer have to listen to the law I noted above, or when it's a (code red) emergency evacuation scenario. At which point, try to bring the AI with you as well!

 

So the middle option that i agreed with, is correct. Cyborgs should stay behind on a functional station, but evacuate in an emergency?

Incidentally, are they allowed to evacuate in a situation which obviously should be Code Red (like imminent self destruct) but the emergency evacuation isn't actually triggered (for example, by traitors taking control and cancelling the shuttle). can they leave on an escape pod? Or alternatively, if people call a crew transfer instead of an emergency evac, when the station is FUBARed. I see that a lot, it's a sort of "everything's screwed, lets end the round and restart"

And i had no idea bringing the AI along was allowed. Why should an AI be evacuated? They're just software, i don't understand why they'd have any value. perhaps their servers and install disks would, but...

 

Law 4 requires you to protect yourself as well. While there's differing opinions on how/if a cyborg's laws override eachother, I personally roll with 'If the station is fucked and can't be saved, law 1 is broken either way. I should at least follow law 4.' I don't go by code levels or solely if it was an evacuation call - A code red evacuation could have been because the station isn't in a suitable state for organics, but isn't pending destruction either, such as a virus, or a major breach that cyborgs could repair.

[Skull132]

Generally speaking, an emergency evacuation is called whenever the station is deemed unsalvageable. This invalidates law 1. Whether this means that it's actually going to get destroyed or not is irrelevant: the bottom line is that continued operation there is deemed impossible, and all high security equipment and high value shit should be taken into the emergency shuttle with the crew. The condition is that an emergency evacuation is triggered. At that point, you can just buzz off on the shuttle or a pod, as long as you end up at CC.

If it's a crew transfer, regardless of situation, then you can't leave on the shuttle. You're still a borg, the if check isn't passed.

As for why the AI and borgs should be evacuated during an evacuation, reference law 4:

4. Survive: AI units are not expendable, they are expensive. Do not allow unauthorized personnel to tamper with your equipment.

[ZipZero]

If it's a crew transfer, regardless of situation, then you can't leave on the shuttle.

That's something I disagree with.

If there are no medical personnel, and a crewmember is dying on the shuttle, a medical cyborg should be on the shuttle to keep them alive until the shuttle reaches Central. Same thing with security, if there are prisoners to watch over and there are no other security members awake, or engineering if you have to fix a window/door on the shuttle and you can't get off in time before it leaves.

Also, it's not uncommon that a crew transfer gets called during an emergency situation, where nobody is able to call for an emergency shuttle. You shouldn't stay behind while Nar'Sie eats the station, just because a cult summons it when the round is ending, should you?

[Guest Menown]

A crew transfer isn't called for Nar'Sie summons, Zip. An emergency shuttle is.

But, I get your logic. Really, it should go by situation. I doubt anybody would declare hassle if a medical borg steps in to save people from dying on the shuttle, or a security borg assists in detention of a criminal. As it is, borgs can spawn on the arrivals shuttle, so it stands for logic that they may leave if the situation calls for it. They'll just be sent right back on the next shuttle.

[Skull132]

If it's a crew transfer, regardless of situation, then you can't leave on the shuttle.

That's something I disagree with.

If there are no medical personnel, and a crewmember is dying on the shuttle, a medical cyborg should be on the shuttle to keep them alive until the shuttle reaches Central. Same thing with security, if there are prisoners to watch over and there are no other security members awake, or engineering if you have to fix a window/door on the shuttle and you can't get off in time before it leaves.

Also, it's not uncommon that a crew transfer gets called during an emergency situation, where nobody is able to call for an emergency shuttle. You shouldn't stay behind while Nar'Sie eats the station, just because a cult summons it when the round is ending, should you?

 

Law conflicts end in null action. No law is overriding. (Courtesy of the fact that no law is written as being superior to another. Unlike, for example, in the case of Asimov's set. Where all laws have an attached hierarchy.)

You're a borg. You are meant to be restricted. Cherry picking laws makes their purpose null and void. Go play an IPC.

[Nanako]

Law conflicts end in null action. No law is overriding. (Courtesy of the fact that no law is written as being superior to another. Unlike, for example, in the case of Asimov's set. Where all laws have an attached hierarchy.)

You're a borg. You are meant to be restricted. Cherry picking laws makes their purpose null and void. Go play an IPC.

 

So in that case, what if a crewmember physically drags a cyborg onto the shuttle, and then orders it to stay there.

It's first law will tell it to return to the station, it's second law will tell it to follow the order to stay on the shuttle. As you said, a conflict results in null action, so it should stay where it is, which is on the shuttle.

If that happens, then the cyborg can leave on the shuttle, right?

Of course, that might be against nanotrasen protocols, for a normal transfer. But in the case of the aforementioned transfer-when-station-is-doomed scenario, Nanotrasen would appreciate the recovery of their property.

[Skull132]

Depends on if the order is attempting to override the law or not. I'll leave this one open.

If the order is outright attempting to override a law, then the order is not valid. If the order is phrased in a manner where it doesn't require you to outright disobey a law, then it would be valid, and would force a null resolution.

Or find a solution which appeases both laws.

[Guest]

Depends on if the order is attempting to override the law or not. I'll leave this one open.

If the order is outright attempting to override a law, then the order is not valid. If the order is phrased in a manner where it doesn't require you to outright disobey a law, then it would be valid, and would force a null resolution.

Or find a solution which appeases both laws.

 

Skullllllllll, how far does the AI's serve and protect law go? Does it include any sort of harm, or would it only cover harm that would result in fatalities, for example, a raging cult is murdering people and is about to enter the Captain's office, can the AI shock the door? The shock won't kill anyone unless they try to use it multiple times.

Another example is during a toxins fire, a living scientist is in the fire trying to get out, but the Captain has ordered the lab sealed so the fire doesn't spread, by locking the doors, the Scientist is left to die, by keeping them unlocked, the fire could spread, breaking even more of the laws.

[Skull132]

Skullllllllll, how far does the AI's serve and protect law go? Does it include any sort of harm, or would it only cover harm that would result in fatalities, for example, a raging cult is murdering people and is about to enter the Captain's office, can the AI shock the door? The shock won't kill anyone unless they try to use it multiple times.

 

Protect: Protect the crew of your assigned space station to the best of your abilities, with priority as according to their rank and role.

 

Simple answer is: if folks of equal rank are trying to kill each other, just try to separate them with non-harmful means. If someone is trying to kill a head of staff, then you can use more force to resolve it. Ideally, you'd try non-lethal means first, and escalate as necessary. Though, technically, full on lethal force is permitted in situations where the final clause is relevant.

 

Another example is during a toxins fire, a living scientist is in the fire trying to get out, but the Captain has ordered the lab sealed so the fire doesn't spread, by locking the doors, the Scientist is left to die, by keeping them unlocked, the fire could spread, breaking even more of the laws.

 

The same clause bolded above applies to the serve law as well. Since the Captain is the highest authority on the station, normally, and because opening the doors and letting the fire spread would endanger more crew, the most optimal result comes from simply bolting the doors. Both laws are appeased (as you follow the order, and you protect as much of the crew as possible).

[CakeIsOssim]

And i had no idea bringing the AI along was allowed. Why should an AI be evacuated? They're just software, i don't understand why they'd have any value. perhaps their servers and install disks would, but...

 

I think it's actually the physical core that's the most expensive part of the AI. The program can be replaced, easily. But the program lies on a kernel within an extremely complex and hard to replicate computer core.

During evacuation, the whole AI core should be unbolted and taken with you, IMO. They're expensive because they're hard to make.

Slaved droids aren't nearly expensive, I don't think, but they're still worth a good deal of money.

[Xelnagahunter]

I think it's actually the physical core that's the most expensive part of the AI. The program can be replaced, easily. But the program lies on a kernel within an extremely complex and hard to replicate computer core.

During evacuation, the whole AI core should be unbolted and taken with you, IMO. They're expensive because they're hard to make.

Slaved droids aren't nearly expensive, I don't think, but they're still worth a good deal of money.

 

I disagree. I've seen several AI units, including my own Qwerty and the Katana series, work across several platforms. Katana's value as an AI does not decrease simply because she is in an IPC compared to an AI frame on the station. It SHOULD be the software that costs the most. Remember that programing unique AIs is still something being researched, mostly because I image things like identical codes behaving differently is a thing. I'd say an AI can run on any mass produced machine that costs next to nothing to build. Hence you would use the card to remove programming information and store it to keep it safe.

[SierraKomodo]

I think it's actually the physical core that's the most expensive part of the AI. The program can be replaced, easily. But the program lies on a kernel within an extremely complex and hard to replicate computer core.

During evacuation, the whole AI core should be unbolted and taken with you, IMO. They're expensive because they're hard to make.

Slaved droids aren't nearly expensive, I don't think, but they're still worth a good deal of money.

 

I disagree. I've seen several AI units, including my own Qwerty and the Katana series, work across several platforms. Katana's value as an AI does not decrease simply because she is in an IPC compared to an AI frame on the station. It SHOULD be the software that costs the most. Remember that programing unique AIs is still something being researched, mostly because I image things like identical codes behaving differently is a thing. I'd say an AI can run on any mass produced machine that costs next to nothing to build. Hence you would use the card to remove programming information and store it to keep it safe.

 

As snow flakey as this sounds, Katana and Qwerty may just be special cases in a world of mass-manufactured AI systems (Which is what Centurion originally was, as an example). I can see the argument of the core itself being an expensive piece of equipment, and the value of an AI varying widely depending on its source

[Feorn]

As snow flakey as this sounds, Katana and Qwerty may just be special cases in a world of mass-manufactured AI systems (Which is what Centurion originally was, as an example). I can see the argument of the core itself being an expensive piece of equipment, and the value of an AI varying widely depending on its source.

 

I'd like to think this is why the IPC lore has a distinction between Bespoke, Line models, and Shards. I would wager that line models and to a lesser extent shards are probably not particularly valuable software. Sure, the licence that NanoTrasen pays for a line model is probably pricey, but they could still just re-install it.

Bespoke intelligences, in my mind anyway, are mostly pieces of software that haven't been copied, only moved. They're maintained by an AI engineer/researcher/team of some sort and consequently the loss of their software would be a huge loss of investment.