Staff Complaint - NursieKitty

[Garbage]

BYOND Key: FrenziedVorcha

Staff BYOND Key: NursieKitty

Reason for complaint: I was told I could not react violently to being permanently blinded as a Vaurca even before the fact I was a drone was realized. Now the loremaster for Vaurca is going to be asked if I'm allowed to pursue revenge as a drone. Before this I was jobbanned for powergaming and unreasonable escalation (I was also told not to escalate to violence or murder in this case as well as violence would be unreasonable) in a way that seems like some sort of personal vendetta.

Evidence/logs/etc:

Vaurca Round :

 

[Trial Moderator PM] NursieKitty: hey, can you talk to me about the journalist? why's your character messing with him?

to NursieKitty: Because he fell over and then lied to security that my character assaulted him. And then he wrote in a newspaper that my character raped him.

to NursieKitty: My character can read he just can't type or write

[Trial Moderator PM] NursieKitty: do you know who in security he told, by any chance?

to NursieKitty: I've disconnected since then but my character was in front of them since the journalist chased him into engineering. It was either Dylan or Frank because they were a guy with black hair

to NursieKitty: I mean it's all in the same newspaper article titled "Rape on the Aurora?" Where he says my Vaurca pushed him over and security refused to do anything

to NursieKitty: He also just walked all the way to engineering to call my character "loser" and "ant-boy" so he's not exactly trying to be innocent

[Trial Moderator PM] NursieKitty: he's been spoken to. it'll be treated as an ic conflict. please don't escelate to murder or i might have to commence boinking again

to NursieKitty: My Vaurca wouldn't murder him. They know that's really bad. It's why I only built grilles in the library instead of instantly assaulting him

to NursieKitty: OKAY! He saw I was being dragged out of engineering for critical injuries and flashed me repeatedly I'm perma blind now

[Trial Moderator PM] NursieKitty: vaurca eyes can be fixed, last time i checked. i'll take partial responsibility for this bc i told them ic conflict has ic consequences.

to NursieKitty: Vaurca eyes can only be fixed with eye replacement surgery.

to NursieKitty: They're mechanical

[Trial Moderator PM] NursieKitty: unless baycode fucked it, they can be fixed with nanopaste.

to NursieKitty: So *now* is it justified to hunt him down and kill him. I dropped it and he repeatedly flashed a crit'd vaurca knowing it would blind them

[Trial Moderator PM] NursieKitty: please don't escelate to murder.

to NursieKitty: He essentially saw a crit'd but conscious person and stabbed them in the eyes repeatedly. It can be fixed (There's a pill that heals brute eye damage) but it is not an action that can be ICly not responded to with violence

[Trial Moderator PM] NursieKitty: please keep reasonable actions in mind. murder isn't exactly a rational choice of action, even when you've been assaulted.

to NursieKitty: Vaurca Drone's can't process complex and rational thoughts. It's all simple minded reactions. They also don't have a concept of pain or mortality. "He made my world dark. Make his world dark."

[Trial Moderator PM] NursieKitty: wait. if it's a drone, then why was it enacting revenge?

to NursieKitty: Because it wasn't ordered not to. It can do simple actions without orders. Revenge is pretty simple if it's violent or just building a wall.

PM to-Staff : Okay, so nursiekitty ; The "IC" action of the Journalist that didn't prompt a violent reaction has had me hospitalized and out of the round for over half an hour and now medical is kicking me out because they can't fix my eyes

Your adminhelp will be tended by NursieKitty. Please allow the staff member a minute or two to write up a response.

[Trial Moderator PM] NursieKitty: the fact that you're a drone who saw fit to take revenge on someone might be a lore issue, regardless of what happened during this round. once i find out who's in charge of vaurca, i need to ask them about what you did this round and if it was valid.

to NursieKitty: Silver has never told me not to take revenge as a drone and I've done it several times

to NursieKitty: With her in the round

[Trial Moderator PM] NursieKitty: i'll be asking them myself to verify.

to NursieKitty: So essentially while I wait I'm being reprimanded for what might be a lore issue and told to suck it up because any response is illegal

[Trial Moderator PM] NursieKitty: you were not told to suck it up. ic actions will come with ic consequences, you were told this.

to NursieKitty: I was also told that ic consequences could not be violent even when they would normally be violent. A human who randomly peppersprays another human would be beat down

Job Ban Round : http://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=5811

Additional remarks:

[TishinaStalker]

The closest thing to compare them to, right now, are cyborg/androids - station-bound synthetics. They are not unintelligent, but their lack of self-awareness prevents them from understanding the concept of death, pain, or formulate very

complex thought processes.

 

From the Vaurca wiki page. My best guess, based on this is no, they would not have a concept of revenge. Unless you very oft. see cyborgs attacking people out of revenge; which we don't as far as I'm aware. I can definitely see why Nur'Sie would've stopped and asked you about the situation before. You explicitly asked to "hunt him down and kill him" as a drone. This would not be okay. The wiki states that you could fight back in self defense if they were in the process of attacking you, but them having left, and you hunting them down would not be aligned with drone lore for Vaurca. I would've personally stopped you for the same thing based on the same interpretation. Where exactly is Nur'Sie's personal vendetta against you outside of a reasonable ahelp?

[Garbage]

I didn't accuse Nursie of having a personal vendetta. I said that I felt this was the case.

Unless the ruling was changed after we updated from Aurora code a Vaurca Drone was allowed to fight someone for violent actions pursued against them.

A drone would not need self-awareness to attack someone. If a Bound Drone did not have a concept of violence and revenge the hive system would have died off if Vaurca had any natural predators or ever got in a fight. A drone does not need to feel pain, or understand death, to remember if someone walked into their hive and caused a large amount of damages before leaving. Without thinking of itself the Vaurca would associate that person with being hazardous against the hive's wellbeing and act if they came near the hive again.

The lack of self awareness does not mean that a Vaurca is unaware of something being bad and warranting repercussion. Immediate or associated violence is a basic animal response and not a true complex thought. The Vaurca in question, my character, is a type BA. A warrior drone, which means that they especially should be able to understand simple violent and revenge tactics (But not set up elaborate traps)

[TishinaStalker]

Lemme just ask a different question because I didn't really mean to say you were hands down accusing her of it because I can read the part where you said "seems like". Would you still consider it seeming like a personal vendetta at that point? Nur'Sie pursuing the way she did seemed reasonable off of how that part of the wiki could've been interpreted.

 

A drone would not need self-awareness to attack someone. If a Bound Drone did not have a concept of violence and revenge the hive system would have died off if Vaurca had any natural predators or ever got in a fight.

 

Erm, you're talking about non-sentient creatures that can come back and will always be hostile to you. This doesn't really hold any water for the situation. I never said they were incapable of violence. I'm pretty sure a species being incapable of violence is impossible.

But lets get more to the point. I'm going to assume you are playing a bound Vaurca, please correct me if you weren't. Unless your hive is telling you "Literally go kill that dude for hurting you", then you're not going to do it. Self-defense, like we've already determined, is a natural, immediate respond. If you attack me, then I'm going to either run or defend myself. If you attack me and then I managed to get away or you run away, then I, out of my own free will (and free will is incredibly important when you are playing a bound Vaurca), have to make the conscious decision (two more, important words) to decide to go after you and try to hurt you.

[Garbage]

The person who blinded me was tackled by the other engineers and held in a locker. I was a bound Vaurca, but I was a bound warrior Vaurca not a worker drone, so arguably I would be the only bound Vaurca type capable of pursuing violence. I asked if it would be allowed for me to kill him for the damages he did, because by the time I asked I had been in medical for forty real life minutes until I got kicked out because they couldn't repair my eyes and said it was good enough. The round ended almost immediately after that with no actual repercussions for the civilian doing something that equates to running up to a critically injured human (Who was injured by forcing his coworkers out of a maintenance hall while being bitten by a giant spider before killing it) and stabbing them repeatedly in the eyes. The fact I asked to pursue violence in a pm is irrelevant because it never came to that, since I was forcefully put out of the round because of the journalist's actions and unable to do any actions passive or aggressive.

The loremaster is being asked if I was allowed to pursue revenge by ; Following the journalist to the library and then walling him in with girders and not doing anything violent to him at any point. I never pushed him. I never disarmed him. I never touched him.

[TishinaStalker]

Do you still have a staff complaint then? It sounds more like you have a lore question and not a staff complaint.

[Garbage]

Yes, I don't have a lore question, I'm not questioning what I did because it's stuff that I did as a Vaurca back on Aurora code and was told it was fine the last time it got investigated. My complaints are both what happened with my Jobban, I was accused of powergaming by becoming a slime as a diona that was already marked friendly to slimes and actually became weaker in doing so in exchange for moving faster, and that potentially my whitelist is in jeopardy because what I did might not have been valid while a non-antag civilian perma blinding me when I was critically injured is deemed reasonable escalation when I never touched him. Earlier I said I feel like there is a personal vendetta and I still feel like such because it feels like on both characters I had regardless of actual backstory, none of my escalation could possibly be IC and it is all always excessive. The only time I get bwoinked by Nursie is when I have to explain my actions and it always ends with me being told "Okay but you can't escalate to violence for it"/"The violence you used was excessive and powergaming"

[TishinaStalker]

Alright then, I have no further questions or lines of discussion to pursue until Analyst and Nur'Sie give us more insight on the situation. I'll make sure they're aware of this complaint.

[Skull132]

I'll also direct this to Kekboot so he can figure out if this was legitimate for a bound drone to do or not.

[witchbells]

Let's start with number one.

[Trial Moderator PM] NursieKitty: he's been spoken to. it'll be treated as an ic conflict. please don't escelate to murder or i might have to commence boinking again

to NursieKitty: My Vaurca wouldn't murder him. They know that's really bad. It's why I only built grilles in the library instead of instantly assaulting him

You were not told that you could not react violently at all, you were told that you should not react with murder, as evidenced in the logs you posted. While dealing with your issue I was informed by offline staff that depending on the conflict, it could have escalated to one of you killing the other, but I am still a trial moderator and not at all comfortable with making that call yet.

Furthermore, the issue of your character being a drone only came up once you had told me. This is an issue because bound vaurca, as staff have stated above, aren't capable of "complex thought processes," likely including the concept of revenge. I had a question forwarded to lore chat when the round had ended since the vaurca lore master has been busy with Real Life.

The decision I made to jobban you from xenobiology was made when other staff were present, and I asked if it would be suitable. It was agreed upon and actually applied by an admin, because I don't have the permissions to do so.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Hello! I'm the head of the lore development team. I delegated out responsibility of Vaurca lore to SilverTalisman. I had a talk with them after reading this complaint.

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Me: If a non-antag harassed a drone repeatedly, then later flashed them blind for asshole reasons, would the drone be acceptable in trying to take revenge?

Silver: Drones are welcome to defend themselves, and the antag is at fault for harassing a drone and blinding it, Drones have no remorse if they feel their life is threatened they may end the danger through either killing or disabling it

Me: What level of escalation would be acceptable for a drone wanting revenge? Would it be a lore issue if they tried to murder the blinder?

Silver: They shouldn't take revenge [...] If they are actively in danger, such as being hit with a crowbar or some other melee weapon they can defend themselves

me: From what I understand on the complaint... The drone had been harassed all shift, and then blinded later on, and the drone made it a mission to violently incapacitate the offender. afaik it wasn't an immediate act of self defense, it was a mission

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Skype conversation ver-batum, just with the format changed.

It seems to me that there is something important to consider here:

If the OP's drone felt that they were facing a clear and present threat, it would seem reasonable that they take necessary steps to incapacitate the threat or flee. The harassment came over the long term, so the question to ask is if it was reasonable for this drone to consider the offender a threat to its existence and one that had to be dealt with. Of course, Vaurca aren't allowed to valid anyone without ahelping asking permission, just like any other race. And think of bound as having extremely short attention spans - it's only fine for a bound Vaurca to retaliate against someone attacking them for as long as it takes to defend themselves or run away. If the bound gets out of the situation, then that situation is over and it goes back to doing whatever it is space ants do. Collecting space aphids?

When you blind a Vaurca, it's reasonable that they would be upset and consider you a threat. Being blinded IRL would make me rather upset, and it's up to the player and administration to decide if their response to the threat was reasonable and within the realm of the rules.

That is the lore stance from myself and Silvertalisman. Whether or not it was justified in this case was/is up to admins, and because I wasn't involved at all I can't really give an opinion.

[DaBurs]

My two cents on the whole situation, as I am the blinder in the scenario and spoke with Nursie much like Garbage. In fact, Garbage isn't as innocent as he tries to make this report out to be. The fact is, Nursie contacted him because I made an ahelp of him greifing me. Forgive me for saying this but, I don't feel it's lore-fitting for a drone to randomly push someone into a puddle and steal their camera and run off with it when there were no hostile interactions prior to that. It seems like a bald-head tier thing to do, and that's what lead me to getting the (Nursie-approved) flashes on his character. It was me who got the revenge, not him who ever wanted it.

Really his actions startled me, I had only pleasant experiences with his character earlier, with a friendly little interview- where I even painted his character in a hugely good light in my news article, so when he decided for no reason to take my camera after I slipped on the janitor's wet floor, spam-take pictures with it and run off with it (trying to steal it), and then later fill my library up with grilles and try to shut my APC down for no reason while I was quietly sitting behind my desk, I had more of a reason for revenge than he ever did, or will.

[Garbage]

I never pushed you. I legitimately *never* pushed you. I was not on any attempt other than help, so I could not have pushed you unless you were in a different intent. You've been saying I pushed you and I never did. I thought you were saying that I pushed you in character but you are legitimately accusing me of something I didn't do.

I went build the grilles because you wrote an article called "Rape on the Aurora" essentially accusing me of that IC, rape.

Finally ; What you did was severe escalation, you effectively stabbed someone in the eyes repeatedly. I was out of the round because of that since after forty minutes of trying, medical kicked me out.

Finally finally; I just saw that part about the APC. I never interacted with any APCs the entire session so you are just legitimately making things up right now.

[DaBurs]

I saw my library APC change colors many times while you stood around it seemingly unmoving, granted you may have just been getting ready to make the grilles, it was non-the-less very suspicious.

You also neglected to cover why you stole my camera for no reason at all, since before then I had only good interactions with you and even made a very positive article about you and the engineering team in general. Were you an antag? Did the hive tell you to steal that random guy's camera?

[Garbage]

No the hive doesn't talk to me on the ship. I took the camera because my drone generally picks up things that interest him and he wanted to figure out how it worked by taking pictures. He's similarly picked up maintenance drones and wore them as a hat.

Also I stand around unmoving a lot. With the recent server DDoSing my connection has been really bad, like disconnect three times every ten minutes bad. And I apologize that this was how everything came out. I never pushed you and I never harmed you, my Drone built the grilles after you wrote that he raped you and then suddenly being permablinded and put out of the round for forty minutes was really infuriating. Now it seems like a large misconception.

[Garbage]

I have now been warned by NursieKitty during a pirate round.

As an Unbound Vaurca Pirate my character, when threatened by the pirate captain who is also a dangerous criminal like themselves, they had absolutely no basis IC for believing the threat of being EMP'd whatsoever. Threatening an Unbound Vaurca with a slow and painful death by systematically shutting down every organ is completely fine, them believing that you would do that and preemptively attacking you to prevent it however is not even when you are both criminals who have a history of taking contracts for murder/kidnapping/torture.

I literally get in trouble regardless of the situation if violence is involved.

[Lucychan42]

I was part of that issue and observed it as "Panther", a Tajaran Pirate during that round. Quite simply, you seem to believe that if a drone ever thinks someone is threatening them it gives you the excuse to immediately valid them regardless of the situation.

The tensions were already high. We had lost members already, made little progress due to a series of unfortunate events, and we went through trouble to get the equipment we were missing. So when your Vaurca stated it didn't want to do missions and would have desired to keep growing food, Rubyscales was reasonably pissed and threatened to kill the Vaurca if it was seriously going to waste their time and, as the Vaurca stated "retire from the pirate life." Whether or not it was a joke, the same could be said for Rubyscales, but more of in a threatening response.

Regardless, the escalation of violence from any threat is absurd and I can't see how you find Nursie or anyone else at fault for questioning your actions. Vaurca or not, a threat isn't always a promise, and if you would react by hunting or killing people if they so much as say something funny, I believe you shouldn't be playing a Vaurca, bound or unbound. You're not supposed to try and mutiny and kill the Raider captain because he hurt the Vaurca's feelings. That would've ruined the entire round if you had succeeded, and even then it caused a delay of having to tend to the captain medically after you inflicted serious head wounds.

My point being, you shouldn't be holding anyone accountable but yourself. Attempted murder because a pissed off pirate overlord made a threat to you shows you likely shouldn't be an antagonist if you would happily sabotage and ruin the round in favor of having a Vaurca that overreacts, and also that you shouldn't hold Nursie or anyone else accountable for the actions you are deciding to take.

My advice is to hold off on playing a Vaurca until you can find ways to react to situations without immediate attempted murder or revenge sabotage, as well as to stop blaming others when they find issues with your roleplay decisions.

[DaBurs]

I was also there as a pirate for that round, fortunately enough! So I too, witnessed the scene. I was "Bedlam Bruiser", and the 'threat' issued by Captain Rubyscales that round was little more than a warning: Stop doing stupid farming stuff, we need all hands on deck. It's a very justifiable and pirate-thing to do in RP to encourage your crewmembers to stop doing unneeded things through little threats, "yarrr, you'll walk the plank."

But what happened with you that round, the EMP warning you received didn't justify a no-RP mutiny where you just start stabbing the captain in the head with a spear. Both me and Panther had to do surgery on the Captain to reconstruct his face, the entire situation put us down one good man and wasted a lot of time for not a very valid reason. The smallest misdemeanor with your Vaurca characters and its 'ATTACK MODE: ENGAGE'.

With all that said, and in regards to this thread and it's main topic, none of this has anything at all to do with NursieKitty in any way. In each continual situation Nursie has done nothing but do their job correctly and patiently.

[Garbage]

Firstly ; This is the only Vaurca that's attacked anyone. You're again asserting that my drone was an aggressor when he never even attempted violence because you put him out of the round.

Secondly; Yes it's justifiable to threaten your crew, it is not justifiable to believe that your crew will not get fed up with a threat of severe and irreparable torture. As someone who had been dissenting from the start with the other crews attitude (He and Lighter repeatedly expressed displeasure with how the crew was doing things, and repeatedly said "Dhiz iz zdupid"), and who complained that he had no gas mask the first time the crew left the ship, he had very noticeably been roleplaying displeasure. A threat of torture and systematic organ failure to someone who's been dissenting is not going to go without any reaction.

People seem eager to accuse me of jumping to violence as Vaurca when only one jumped to violence. The other barricaded a room and got effectively stabbed in the eyes for it and that is all that happened.

[Lucychan42]

Sort of getting to Burs' point, Nursie isn't at fault for anything here. She has done her job as she was asked to do and hasn't overstepped any boundaries. Players expressed distaste for actions taken by Garbage's Vaurca and she responded in an appropriate manner. I admit to being guilty of it, but we should come to that conclusion of Nursie doing her job and any discussion of Garbage's own fault with Vaurca should be discussed in a separate complaint.

I feel it's been established that Nursie has done her job appropriately and within respectable levels. Unless someone has significant evidence to the contrary, I feel this should be closed and any further discussion be taken to more appropriate threads.

[SierraKomodo]

Alright ladies and gentlemen. This is a staff complaint focusing on a specific incident involving NursieKitty and Garbage. This is not a player complaint or a debate between you two. Keep it on topic, and resolve your issues in PM, or post a player complaint if you have an issue.

[DatBerry]

This will be archived due to inactivity in 24 hours, if the OP does not reply in time but wishs to re-open this complaint, PM me or another staff member.