Demilitarize security - corporate regulation suggestion

[Bedshaped]

An important issue right now in 21st America is the ongoing militarization of the police. When you begin to look less like the people that you protect and more like a grim military occupier, you lose the trust of the people and you cease to be able to interact effectively with the citizens you guard.

In SS13 we have various alert levels to tell people what the security status of the station is, but typically we are in code green; everything is good with the station and nobody has anything to fear. So what troubles me is that there are many security officers who will still walk around and don gear that is wildly excessive for the current threat level.

It bothers me when a new shift begins and the first thing I see a fellow security officer do is go for the heavy armor vest and a .45 pistol. Is there really any need for that? I wouldn't expect private security to be walking around in bulky armor with no threat to them and I wouldn't expect someone to use rubber bullets in code green either; which result in bleeding and damage.

I suggest new corporate regulations for security setting out what gear they are allowed to carry in code green. They shouldn't be allowed to wear body armor unless there is a blue alert and a serious threat to the station and they certainly shouldn't be allowed to equip themselves with .45 pistols when they have tasers, batons and more than enough other ways of taking down people for minor offenses.

[Nanako]

So what troubles me is that there are many security officers who will still walk around and don gear that is wildly excessive for the current threat level.

 

I don't see this personally, but our opinions differ

 

I see a fellow security officer do is go for the heavy armor vest and a .45 pistol. Is there really any need for that?

There is no 'heavy armour vest'. There's the Officer Armour vest, which is standard equipment, much like real police wear all the time. There's also three specialised armours stored in the armoury (which officers alone can't access) and the Tactical Armour which is stored in tactical storage, again inacessible.

Armour vests are part of the standard officer uniform, and they're needed because they give security the essential edge in scuffles with drunken hooligans. And cause bruises instead of broken ribs and organ damage.

In order to take down someone nonlethally, you need to have an advantage over them.

The .45 pistol is also similiar to sidearms real life police carry as standard, though unlike those, it's filled with nonlethal rubber ammo, and the wounds it causes usually wear off. Rubber ammo deals pain damage instead of actual damage to a significant degree, which means when someone is damaged enough to make them collapse, they've not actually suffered enough damage to break bones and pose a threat to their life. Some fractures are unavoidable, and the Pistol with rubber ammo is generally supposed to be the higher point of escalation for normal field duties, flash and baton are preferable.

Rubber bullets don't generally penetrate the skin or stick in wounds, and they rarely cause bleeding

 

I wouldn't expect private security to be walking around in bulky armor with no threat to them and I wouldn't expect someone to use rubber bullets in code green

Well that's where we disagree, i'd expect security to carry both of those things at all times.

And the officer armour vest isn't bulky. It doesn't even have shoulderpads.

There ARE bulky armours, it is not one of them. It is light, flexible armour.

 

I suggest new corporate regulations for security setting out what gear they are allowed to carry in code green.

I agree, we should have this regulation

 

They shouldn't be allowed to wear body armor unless there is a blue alert and a serious threat to the station and they certainly shouldn't be allowed to equip themselves with .45 pistols

But i disagree with your idea of what this regulation should say.

I think the regulation should specifically allow vests and rubber pistols, and forbid heavier things (like shotguns and energy rifles)

[Guest Menown]

There's an officer vest, then the heavier officer vest. I use the latter because it ends the speed-buff Tajara have, so I prefer it. I however RP my fucking catbeast having to pour water down his shirt every time he wears a vest, due to the heat, so I'm just different in that regard.

As for the .45, I still would rather officers lose the taser and the pistol and get an energy pistol instead. That allows lethal response if needed, and the stun quality the taser provides. I know I'm alone in that ballpark.

As for code green kevlar usage, the vests aren't really that big of a deal, given they're just vests.

[Nanako]

There's an officer vest, then the heavier officer vest. I use the latter because it ends the speed-buff Tajara have, so I prefer it. I however RP my fucking catbeast having to pour water down his shirt every time he wears a vest, due to the heat, so I'm just different in that regard.

 

There's a heavy officer vest? is it actually named that, or are you referring to the tactical vest? I'm not sure i've seen it

 

As for the .45, I still would rather officers lose the taser and the pistol and get an energy pistol instead. That allows lethal response if needed, and the stun quality the taser provides. I know I'm alone in that ballpark.

 

You're not alone, i love this idea. Energy pistols are amazing since they have both Stun and Kill settings

However i'd only support this if we renamed them Phasers

[Bedshaped]

There is the regular security armour in the officer lockers, then there's heavy armour in the unsecure armoury next to the .45 pistols that all officers have access to.

When I'm playing as security, I don't generally wear armour or carry a pistol other than a taser. I don't see the RP sense in arming yourself to the teeth if it's just going to be another work day and you aren't expecting anything significant to happen. Giving Officer's E-guns just gives them a massive OOC advantage.

There's an officer vest, then the heavier officer vest. I use the latter because it ends the speed-buff Tajara have

 

Isn't that kind of metagaming?

[coolbc2000]

There's an officer vest, then the heavier officer vest. I use the latter because it ends the speed-buff Tajara have, so I prefer it. I however RP my fucking catbeast having to pour water down his shirt every time he wears a vest, due to the heat, so I'm just different in that regard.

 

There's a heavy officer vest? is it actually named that, or are you referring to the tactical vest? I'm not sure i've seen it

 

Aye there is, it's right next to the 45.'s. They are just a little better then normal vests.

[Guest Menown]

There's an officer vest, then the heavier officer vest. I use the latter because it ends the speed-buff Tajara have

 

Isn't that kind of metagaming?

 

How is that metagaming? I'm wearing the vest because I don't want to run as fast as every single other Tajara. My catbeast weighs almost three hundred pounds. He's ICly not supposed to be superspeed.

[Bedshaped]

There's an officer vest, then the heavier officer vest. I use the latter because it ends the speed-buff Tajara have

 

Isn't that kind of metagaming?

 

How is that metagaming? I'm wearing the vest because I don't want to run as fast as every single other Tajara. My catbeast weighs almost three hundred pounds. He's ICly not supposed to be superspeed.

 

Tajaran move quickly because of their gameplay design, you're slowing them down using OOC knowledge that heavy vests will lower their speed back down to normal. You're not powergaming because you're actually lowering your character's abilities but it's definitely metagaming.

[Guest Menown]

Isn't that kind of metagaming?

 

How is that metagaming? I'm wearing the vest because I don't want to run as fast as every single other Tajara. My catbeast weighs almost three hundred pounds. He's ICly not supposed to be superspeed.

 

Tajaran move quickly because of their gameplay design, you're slowing them down using OOC knowledge that heavy vests will lower their speed back down to normal. You're not powergaming because you're actually lowering your character's abilities but it's definitely metagaming.

 

I'm using my OOC knowledge that ICly my character is a fat-ass and shouldn't run that fast. Tajara move quickly because they've been given a standard IC mechanic that makes no sense, because not every species of anything is exactly the same. Just because Usain Bolt is fast as shit, all humans should be. That's your logic.

i barely ever get to use the vest anyway, as most of the time it gets denied.

[Alberyk]

How is metagaming that security officers know the property of their gear? Is it also metagaming if they know that a flash does not work against people with sunglasses?

[Guest]

An important issue right now in 21st America is the ongoing militarization of the police. When you begin to look less like the people that you protect and more like a grim military occupier, you lose the trust of the people and you cease to be able to interact effectively with the citizens you guard.

 

Real life explanation to police militarization: Post-9/11 reforms in addition to radical liberal protest tactics devolving into mindless unproductive violence. The government in response has found a way to not only bolster the strength of its police force against radical violent dissenters and terror elements, but also leave the general populace defenseless against criminal or cop by enacting gun control ordinances. You cry corruption, I call it reasonable restriction, save for the gun control elements. It just makes sense for a country to do this once it believes it's threatened.

Lore justification for NT security militarization: Tau Ceti struggles to free itself from the strings that NanoTrasen hold the sector's government over. As NT has widespread investments in just about every single worthwhile trade commodity and their own brand of credits in the local politician's pockets, it's reasonable to believe that NT would get away with having a private army (which pales in comparison to the actual army NT has funded to man its fleets) that's warranted to use deadly force in order to protect corporate interests, resources or assets. Biesel has no reason to contest this decision, either. It's a very large galaxy, NanoTrasen is a very large company, and there's in total a very large amount of competitors, rivals, and enemies of the corporation. No one would be able to dispute that NT doesn't have any enemies and thus doesn't deserve the funding it has poured into its security force. Risk is a sort of thing that they hire analysts and specialists for, just for the sake of balancing out a budget in addition to ensuring there's a minimal risk of incidents causing damages or loss of profit.

 

In SS13 we have various alert levels to tell people what the security status of the station is, but typically we are in code green; everything is good with the station and nobody has anything to fear. So what troubles me is that there are many security officers who will still walk around and don gear that is wildly excessive for the current threat level.

 

I've yet to see this.

 

It bothers me when a new shift begins and the first thing I see a fellow security officer do is go for the heavy armor vest and a .45 pistol. Is there really any need for that? I wouldn't expect private security to be walking around in bulky armor with no threat to them and I wouldn't expect someone to use rubber bullets in code green either; which result in bleeding and damage.

 

Is there really a need for anyone to do anything? Do antags really need that .357 revolver that they purchased out of their uplink along with accompanying ammo? Do malf AIs need to use sabotage or the ray shield abilities when they're threatened? Do wizards need to purchase fireball, mistform, magic missile, blink and the hardsuit? Does medical really need the cryo mixes? I can concern troll, too.

As long as it isn't strictly against regulations, station policy or even the OOC rules for reasonable escalation, anyone can do whatever the hell they want within reason. Diversifying your tools to allow for personal safety, crew safety and suspect safety (prioritized last, as intended) is absolutely fine. It's not difficult to fathom that security officers wear vests to avoid incidents where they get hurt by a suspect. In SOP, the officer's personal safety is ranked higher than that of any other crew member, because if that officer gets shot and killed while trying to save someone in a breach with no hardsuit, they haven't done anything useful and they died in vain. The possibility of an incident happening is more than enough reason to take small reasonable precautions for, such as wearing vests or packing a little first aid in an internals box. It does not hurt to be prepared for average, normal, everyday incidents such as someone clunking their head in maintenance.

From a game balance perspective, I think people really do need to "get good," because proper gameplay or RP isn't garnered from complaining about the balance until you've actually gone and done the research on how "the meta" works. The meta is a very fickle beast as it stands, so far Alberyk and I have found some really powerful shit these past few weeks that you would absolutely detest if it became the standard. There are a multitude of ways to dispatch (or rarely, subvert) security officers as an antagonist. You need to be smarter, not overbuffed in advance. You're one person against the rest of the station, the odds are intended to be against you.

 

I suggest new corporate regulations for security setting out what gear they are allowed to carry in code green. They shouldn't be allowed to wear body armor unless there is a blue alert and a serious threat to the station and they certainly shouldn't be allowed to equip themselves with .45 pistols when they have tasers, batons and more than enough other ways of taking down people for minor offenses.

 

Only if we remove every other antagonist in the game so we can become Hypatia 2.0.

Seems like this thread is just whining that security robusted them and they're looking for excuses to shit on security for it.

[Bedshaped]

I'm not going to quote 1138's post because he is behaving weirdly personal and slightly creepy.

Regardless of what you think about IRL police shows of strength, there should be a strictly set guideline for what security officers can carry in what alert level. It's only my opinion that they should be very limited in what they should carry in code green but if people disagree with this that's fine; as long as there's a definition of what the maximum threat-appearance weaponry and gear they can have.

Also Menown really should have taken his issues with my nonchalant comment to PMs since it has nothing to do with my topic and you shouldn't be encouraging derailing, Alberyk.

[Guest Menown]

I'm not going to quote 1138's post because he is behaving weirdly personal and slightly creepy.

Regardless of what you think about IRL police shows of strength, there should be a strictly set guideline for what security officers can carry in what alert level. It's only my opinion that they should be very limited in what they should carry in code green but if people disagree with this that's fine; as long as there's a definition of what the maximum threat-appearance weaponry and gear they can have.

Also Menown really should have taken his issues with my nonchalant comment to PMs since it has nothing to do with my topic and you shouldn't be encouraging derailing, Alberyk.

 

You're saying I should have taken my comments to PM and you say Alberyk is derailing, yet you post a one sentence reply to my quote in which you accuse me of metagaming. Really?

[Nikov]

Police militarization is just another made-up word to control how we think about US military surplus being bought up by police departments.

Don't personally attack someone who disagrees with you.

The suggestion to give officers energy guns at start is problematic to me, since it puts significantly more firepower a switch away for a griefer, newbie or anyone who can cold-cock an officer. It also means the officers immediately have access to lethals. There are attempts among heisters etc to be less-than-lethal honest antagonists rather than murder machines, and sec officers being able to flip a switch and go from a code Green to a code Red level response at the first red hardsuit ruins a stealth or nonlethal antags day.

[Guest]

I'm not going to quote 1138's post because he is behaving weirdly personal and slightly creepy.

 

Welcome to an open forum, anyone can say anything. I find it funny that people are capable of typing their emotions out and creating threads on the forums but are generally unable to read feedback to their suggestions that isn't overwhelmingly positive.

Also, ad hominem. Only person that was making it personal was you.

 

Regardless of what you think about IRL police shows of strength, there should be a strictly set guideline for what security officers can carry in what alert level.

 

Why?

 

It's only my opinion that they should be very limited in what they should carry in code green but if people disagree with this that's fine; as long as there's a definition of what the maximum threat-appearance weaponry and gear they can have.

 

OK, then that's your opinion, man.

 

Also Menown really should have taken his issues with my nonchalant comment to PMs since it has nothing to do with my topic and you shouldn't be encouraging derailing, Alberyk.

 

Didn't you just derail your own thread by accusing Menown of metagaming for wearing a heavy vest? I'm confused.

[Bedshaped]

The suggestion to give officers energy guns at start is problematic to me, since it puts significantly more firepower a switch away for a griefer, newbie or anyone who can cold-cock an officer. It also means the officers immediately have access to lethals. There are attempts among heisters etc to be less-than-lethal honest antagonists rather than murder machines, and sec officers being able to flip a switch and go from a code Green to a code Red level response at the first red hardsuit ruins a stealth or nonlethal antags day.

 

Yeah E-guns are fairly overpowered from a gameplay perspective and the heisters wouldn't stand a chance.

Is there anything stopping a Warden from just walking into the Armoury and handing out lethals though? There's no regulation in place, so as long as it's for "protecting the station" then the length of that onus can be pretty broadly interpreted.

[Nikov]

I'm reasonably certain passing out machine guns on a Code Green would get the Warden arrested by the officers. I've also not seen one tenth the jackbooted thuggery of other servers here. I can't even get a damned Unathi officer to beat up an uppity apprentice when practically ordered to. You can tell a Redshirt Redhead to give them the boots, though. Women are savage creatures.

[Bedshaped]

Jackbooted thuggery is a good way to put it.

I remember years ago this kind of regulation existed on Bay12 or atleast I remember HoS' that would enforce it. Security officers started out lightly equipped and gradually added bits to their loadout as the situation dictated it, until you were fully kitted out with riot gear/lethal weapons/barricades in code red.

[Guest]

The suggestion to give officers energy guns at start is problematic to me, since it puts significantly more firepower a switch away for a griefer, newbie or anyone who can cold-cock an officer. It also means the officers immediately have access to lethals. There are attempts among heisters etc to be less-than-lethal honest antagonists rather than murder machines, and sec officers being able to flip a switch and go from a code Green to a code Red level response at the first red hardsuit ruins a stealth or nonlethal antags day.

 

Yeah E-guns are fairly overpowered from a gameplay perspective and the heisters wouldn't stand a chance.

Is there anything stopping a Warden from just walking into the Armoury and handing out lethals though? There's no regulation in place, so as long as it's for "protecting the station" then the length of that onus can be pretty broadly interpreted.

 

[Nikov]

This is all just a tremendous non-issue. Lets kill the thread then.

[Bedshaped]

This is all just a tremendous non-issue. Lets kill the thread then.

 

This is not the complaint board. I made a suggestion which I think will improve the game.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

The militarization of the security team is an issue that you can argue against IC, as well. All the arguments here are things that can be argued IC. Perhaps during rev rounds you can even get militant with disarming sec. It could be fun - I'll see if I can toss around a controversy to blast around the news or something, it'll be fun!

Anyway, on code green officers only have access to the vests, stun-based weapons, and the .45's with rubbers available in the non-secure armory. This all seems very fair - even on extended rounds security officers regularly have to deal with drunks, cargo technicians with shivs, spiders, and sassy lesbians. None of these weapons have the capacity to really critically injure anyone or kill them unless there is blatant excessive force used. A security officer bizarrely escalating a situation with his .45 instead of using a flash, baton, or taser, is a matter to be taken up with the admins.

Balance-wise security is also fair. Loud and proud antagonists can wipe the floor with sec on code green if they hit fast enough. Stealth antags are also able to counter the minimal armor and weaponry with things like the parapen, changeling stings, or general shenanigans.

But that is why we have the higher alert levels. Security officers cannot open carry on green alert, (which means laser rifles are out) but on blue alert it is reasonable to assume that they can carry around a bit higher grade weapons depending on the stance of the HoS and warden. And red alert is when they typically get their access to the military grade weapons.

If you look at it from a macro-level, it makes sense. NanoTrasen is fully aware that its stations are riddled with double agents and may become targets from syndicate or mercenary attacks or civil unrest. The Aurora is an extremely important research station and it has gear stockpiled to handle a variety of contingencies but only when the situation calls for it. Most secure government facilities, like the CDC headquarters and other government labs filled with WMD's or scary things, all have its security teams carry lethal weapons and they shoot to kill if they can't disarm you.

[Outboarduniform]

Let me throw in my shitty opinion:

First off , militarization of the police is and still is necessary to combat violent gangs , to help combat drug cartels , etc. the reason militarization even started was really because of the drug war in the 80s by Nancy Reagan.

My equipment is usually this:

Pockets:

Pepper spray

Flash

Belt:

3 cuffs

2 flashbangs

Pistol

Stun baton

Other random shit:

Holstered taser

Police tape

Helmet in my backpack

Flashlight in my armor/backpack

It's not really buffing yourself and arming yourself to the teeth , seeing as 90% of the times all I need is a flash.

It's still annoying as hell getting called to a crime scene and having another officer instantly pull out their pistol

I DO agree however , on the regulation on wearing equipment like that in code green. Now we can root out the people who have no clue about what they're doing