[Resolved] Staff Complaint - Nursie Kitty

[Wolfwood88]

BYOND Key:Wolfwoode

Staff BYOND Key:NursieKitty

Game ID:(Unsure, Night of 8/7/18- Morning 8/8/16)

Reason for complaint:I returned after being suspended, I had gone in to cryo when I was suspended, when I returned from cryo I was told that I could not appeal my suspension and that my presence was not even allowed on the station. To the best of my knowledge this is not how suspension is enforced.

Evidence/logs/etc:

Here is where I explain that I left in cryo and returned in the same manner. I was allowed to stay on station after my suspension initially, so I fail to see how I was not allowed to return.

Here I explain that I understand my job suspension stands, and that I am not allowed to be a doctor currently, but I am informed I am not allowed to be on the station at all.

Here I show that I understand that my suspension is an IC issue, and that with the captain inactive, the CMO gone, I ask if the only remaining command staff, the CE would be able to lift my suspension, as per the chain of command. I am told that it doesn't matter, that apparently suspensions can not be lifted and mean I am not supposed to be present on the station.

Here I am being told that I was not suspended from my job.. but from the shift entirely. I had never heard of a suspension being enforced that way. Also, I would like to add, although it is only mildly relevant, I was suspended without an investigation, and for erroneous reasons. So essentially.. this opens up the capability for a head of staff to ban one character from a shift entirely without a check system according to NursieKitty's understanding of the suspension system.

Lastly, I asked for clarification of what would happen if I had stayed, and I am told that I would have been brigged. This was just a job suspension, there was no criminal activity, I have never seen a normal job suspension enforced by perma brigging, or forced cryo. When I asked for further clarification I received no more responses, this is where the chat ends.

Additional remarks: To the best of my knowledge the suspension system was not only very poorly used in this instance but incorrectly enforced. I was forced to sit out of a three hour round with the only character I play because of this, and it was very upsetting. If I am completing misunderstanding the suspension system please correct me, but if this is how the system stands currently it is ripe for abuse and needs to be rectified.

[valky_walky2]

The exact reason for the suspension from my outside perspective was:

Akela Ha'kim destroyed her hand in an accident and at medical she SPECIFICALLY requested a full arm replacement.

Nicholas Nelond asked her in front of the CMO if she was sure that's what she wanted and Akela agreed. Also in front of the CMO.

Nicholas performed the surgery and then later the CMO suspended him without any kind of justification due to "failing a surgery" even though he was well aware that Akela requested that specific surgery to happen.

No investigation was done AT ALL about the suspension so effectively we have just been told that a head of staff can remove any character they want from the round for no reason and no one can question it.

[UnknownMurder]

...CCIAs didn't suspend Nicholas Nelond for long duration of time. It was a shift suspension by Command Personnel. Just Nicholas Nelond was given an official warning, and the official warning is in your employment records. Nothing serious consequences.

[Wolfwood88]

...CCIAs didn't suspend Nicholas Nelond for long duration of time. It was a shift suspension by Command Personnel. Just Nicholas Nelond was given an official warning, and the official warning is in your employment records. Nothing serious consequences.

This was two hours after my initial suspension if that is relevant also.

[Owen]

I was the Captain. The CMO said that the doctor failed to tell that Akela wanted a full arm replacement. She said that if she was aware that there was going to be a full arm replacement, she would deny it due to it wasting resources. So, from what I was able to tell, ICly. the doctor failed to communicate it to the CMO that they were doing a full arm replacement.

 

The exact reason for the suspension from my outside perspective was:

Akela Ha'kim destroyed her hand in an accident and at medical she SPECIFICALLY requested a full arm replacement.

Nicholas Nelond asked her in front of the CMO if she was sure that's what she wanted and Akela agreed. Also in front of the CMO.

Nicholas performed the surgery and then later the CMO suspended him without any kind of justification due to "failing a surgery" even though he was well aware that Akela requested that specific surgery to happen.

No investigation was done AT ALL about the suspension so effectively we have just been told that a head of staff can remove any character they want from the round for no reason and no one can question it.

 

I was not aware of that ICly or OOCly.

Also, to provide more information on what UnknownMurder was saying. I directed the player of Ishikawa to UM to log the warning, that was a mistake on my part because it was late where I was and for some reason thought they were talking about logging Head of Staff reports on Security. I think we cleared that up in the staff discord after the round though. The CMO was still welcome to file an Incident Report on the Surgeon if they felt it necessary. After that, there would be a full investigation opened if the CCIA deemed it valid.

[Wolfwood88]

...CCIAs didn't suspend Nicholas Nelond for long duration of time. It was a shift suspension by Command Personnel. Just Nicholas Nelond was given an official warning, and the official warning is in your employment records. Nothing serious consequences.

Also, even though I greatly disagree with the reasons why I was suspended, that is not what the complaint is about, it is the fact I was told I needed to leave the station and could not be on the station as Nicholas Nelond

[Wolfwood88]

I was the Captain. The CMO said that the doctor failed to tell that Akela wanted a full arm replacement. She said that if she was aware that there was going to be a full arm replacement, she would deny it due to it wasting resources. So, from what I was able to tell, ICly. the doctor failed to communicate it to the CMO that they were doing a full arm replacement.

 

The exact reason for the suspension from my outside perspective was:

Akela Ha'kim destroyed her hand in an accident and at medical she SPECIFICALLY requested a full arm replacement.

Nicholas Nelond asked her in front of the CMO if she was sure that's what she wanted and Akela agreed. Also in front of the CMO.

Nicholas performed the surgery and then later the CMO suspended him without any kind of justification due to "failing a surgery" even though he was well aware that Akela requested that specific surgery to happen.

No investigation was done AT ALL about the suspension so effectively we have just been told that a head of staff can remove any character they want from the round for no reason and no one can question it.

 

I was not aware of that ICly or OOCly.

Also, to provide more information on what UnknownMurder was saying. I directed the player of Ishikawa to UM to log the warning, that was a mistake on my part because it was late where I was and for some reason thought they were talking about logging Head of Staff reports on Security. I think we cleared that up in the staff discord after the round though. The CMO was still welcome to file an Incident Report on the Surgeon if they felt it necessary. After that, there would be a full investigation opened if the CCIA deemed it valid.

I do not blame you for the suspension since I intended to go straight to cryo and did not very much push for an appeal, I was just disappointed with how easily it happened and under the circumstances I essentially was suspended for doing my job properly but telling the CMO he was being incompetent.

*Edit: But once again my complaint is not about my suspension but how it was enforced by the admins

[incognitojesus]

Right, as the Chief Medical Officer who suspended you, let me throw this in from my inside perspective.

You were suspended because your decisions led to someone's arm being amputated. Quite frankly, a medical professional wouldn't allow a patient to choose to have the entire arm replaced when only the hand needed to be replaced, especially if said medical professional works for a corporation that just wants its people to work, not get any sort of cosmetic or functional upgrade on the company's dime.

Nicholas Nelond asked her in front of the CMO if she was sure that's what she wanted and Akela agreed. Also in front of the CMO.

The patient was not asked about the full arm replacement in front of the Chief Medical Officer. I got there when the patient, Shaner, and Nelond were headed towards the operating room.

As for the allegations of there was a suspension without any sort of investigation, let me make this clear: the suspension was for the duration of the shift. It is within a head of staff's jurisdiction to suspend employees under their rule at their discretion with the support of the Captain. The Captain, Auralia, approved said suspension. Do you want to know how you would know? Because they were the one who modified your ID and saw your character throw said ID at mine. They approved it once I said why I was doing it. There is no need for a full blown investigation into events that transpired during the round, within the department, and in full view of the head of staff. Just like how your supervisor doesn't need to get HR involved to tell you to go home after you mess something up. With that being said, let's move onto the whole coming back from cryo situation.

When you decided to join back after I cryo'd, you joined as a medical doctor, the same exact job with the same ID as you did before you were suspended. You were given a suspended ID, and therefore abused the mechanics of the game in order to get your access and job position back. That's why you weren't allowed to come back, because there is no safety net in-game to give you a suspended ID. In fact, the company wouldn't revive you from cryogenic storage during the same shift you were suspended in because you literally have no purpose aboard the station at the time. If you didn't want to deal with this situation, you shouldn't have gone to cryo immediately after being suspended and telling your friends about it. If you had stayed aboard after your suspension, you would not have been brigged, as your character had not broken any regulation besides maybe battery because you threw the ID (which wasn't reported). That was a misunderstanding, and should have been brought up.

Oh, and to add, you weren't suspended for telling me that I was incompetent. You were suspended for performing what ICly would be a risky operation. You turned a prosthetic addition into an invasive and traumatic operation.

[Wolfwood88]

Right, as the Chief Medical Officer who suspended you, let me throw this in from my inside perspective.

You were suspended because your decisions led to someone's arm being amputated. Quite frankly, a medical professional wouldn't allow a patient to choose to have the entire arm replaced when only the hand needed to be replaced, especially if said medical professional works for a corporation that just wants its people to work, not get any sort of cosmetic or functional upgrade on the company's dime.

Nicholas Nelond asked her in front of the CMO if she was sure that's what she wanted and Akela agreed. Also in front of the CMO.

The patient was not asked about the full arm replacement in front of the Chief Medical Officer. I got there when the patient, Shaner, and Nelond were headed towards the operating room.

As for the allegations of there was a suspension without any sort of investigation, let me make this clear: the suspension was for the duration of the shift. It is within a head of staff's jurisdiction to suspend employees under their rule at their discretion with the support of the Captain. The Captain, Auralia, approved said suspension. Do you want to know how you would know? Because they were the one who modified your ID and saw your character throw said ID at mine. They approved it once I said why I was doing it. There is no need for a full blown investigation into events that transpired during the round, within the department, and in full view of the head of staff. Just like how your supervisor doesn't need to get HR involved to tell you to go home after you mess something up. With that being said, let's move onto the whole coming back from cryo situation.

When you decided to join back after I cryo'd, you joined as a medical doctor, the same exact job with the same ID as you did before you were suspended. You were given a suspended ID, and therefore abused the mechanics of the game in order to get your access and job position back. That's why you weren't allowed to come back, because there is no safety net in-game to give you a suspended ID. In fact, the company wouldn't revive you from cryogenic storage during the same shift you were suspended in because you literally have no purpose aboard the station at the time. If you didn't want to deal with this situation, you shouldn't have gone to cryo immediately after being suspended and telling your friends about it. If you had stayed aboard after your suspension, you would not have been brigged, as your character had not broken any regulation besides maybe battery because you threw the ID (which wasn't reported). That was a misunderstanding, and should have been brought up.

Oh, and to add, you weren't suspended for telling me that I was incompetent. You were suspended for performing what ICly would be a risky operation. You turned a prosthetic addition into an invasive and traumatic operation.

We had received patient permission right in front of you, and you were told after the surgery that we had received consent and that is what the patient had requested. Also if you look at the logs I was more then willing to change my ID to comply with the suspension but being forced to be kicked off the station IS NOT part of a suspension.

[incognitojesus]

Like I said in the original post, you did not receive permission right in front of me. You could not have, considering I was in another part of the Medbay and when I got back, you two were leading the patient to the OR. Also, you don't understand. The issue here is that you should not be joining back as a medical doctor after being suspended from the position of medical doctor because there is literally no way to have you come back with a suspended ID. It's abusing game mechanics to circumvent IC circumstances. You weren't forced to be kicked off the station to begin with, you went to cryo after being suspended when you didn't have to.

[Wolfwood88]

Like I said in the original post, you did not receive permission right in front of me. You could not have, considering I was in another part of the Medbay and when I got back, you two were leading the patient to the OR. Also, you don't understand. The issue here is that you should not be joining back as a medical doctor after being suspended from the position of medical doctor because there is literally no way to have you come back with a suspended ID. It's abusing game mechanics to circumvent IC circumstances. You weren't forced to be kicked off the station to begin with, you went to cryo after being suspended when you didn't have to.

You were in the observation room, at the time before we started the surgery. And Like I said, I was willing to comply again with an ID change to reflect my suspension and not practice medicine that shift, I made that abundantly clear in the chat logs. I was willing to remain suspended, appeal, etc. whatever was necessary to maintain the canon of the round.

*Edit: Additionally I left my ID on the medbay lobby desk, and made it abundantly clear I was not going to practice medicine. A simple ID change at the HoPs by command staff to visitor, or suspension again would have worked, and I was willing to do those. I was not trying to circumvent game mechanics in any way.

[Wolfwood88]

Right, as the Chief Medical Officer who suspended you, let me throw this in from my inside perspective.

You were suspended because your decisions led to someone's arm being amputated. Quite frankly, a medical professional wouldn't allow a patient to choose to have the entire arm replaced when only the hand needed to be replaced, especially if said medical professional works for a corporation that just wants its people to work, not get any sort of cosmetic or functional upgrade on the company's dime.

Nicholas Nelond asked her in front of the CMO if she was sure that's what she wanted and Akela agreed. Also in front of the CMO.

The patient was not asked about the full arm replacement in front of the Chief Medical Officer. I got there when the patient, Shaner, and Nelond were headed towards the operating room.

As for the allegations of there was a suspension without any sort of investigation, let me make this clear: the suspension was for the duration of the shift. It is within a head of staff's jurisdiction to suspend employees under their rule at their discretion with the support of the Captain. The Captain, Auralia, approved said suspension. Do you want to know how you would know? Because they were the one who modified your ID and saw your character throw said ID at mine. They approved it once I said why I was doing it. There is no need for a full blown investigation into events that transpired during the round, within the department, and in full view of the head of staff. Just like how your supervisor doesn't need to get HR involved to tell you to go home after you mess something up. With that being said, let's move onto the whole coming back from cryo situation.

When you decided to join back after I cryo'd, you joined as a medical doctor, the same exact job with the same ID as you did before you were suspended. You were given a suspended ID, and therefore abused the mechanics of the game in order to get your access and job position back. That's why you weren't allowed to come back, because there is no safety net in-game to give you a suspended ID. In fact, the company wouldn't revive you from cryogenic storage during the same shift you were suspended in because you literally have no purpose aboard the station at the time. If you didn't want to deal with this situation, you shouldn't have gone to cryo immediately after being suspended and telling your friends about it. If you had stayed aboard after your suspension, you would not have been brigged, as your character had not broken any regulation besides maybe battery because you threw the ID (which wasn't reported). That was a misunderstanding, and should have been brought up.

Oh, and to add, you weren't suspended for telling me that I was incompetent. You were suspended for performing what ICly would be a risky operation. You turned a prosthetic addition into an invasive and traumatic operation.

Additionally, I did not perform the operation, Shaner did, Once again we received approval, you were told that at the time and after the fact, I know the captain changed my ID, I was dissapointed in the fact he asked no questions about any of the charges, and lastly once again I am not complaining about the suspension but how it was enforced, I have said all I have to say on the matter, my intentions and actions are made very clear in the logs I have provided, if you believe I was trying to circumvent game mechanics, look at the logs, I was fully willing to cooperate to maintain the round IC and canon. This potentially could have all been avoided if I had just been told to go to the HoP office to get my ID rectified again.

[moltenkore]

I play Akela Ha'kim, hello.

Medical didn't contact robotics for the replacement limb, I did and it just so happened it was a full arm that they gave me. The doctors asked if Akela was ready for surgery and as a person with robotics training herself, she knew perfectly well that the rest of her arm had to be removed for the prosthetic to be attached. She could have easily declined and asked robotics for just a hand but as the arm was already 'printed' there wasn't much point.

It seems reading over this complaint that the actual point of the complaint has been missed entirely.

[Mofo1995]

I play Akela Ha'kim, hello.

Medical didn't contact robotics for the replacement limb, I did and it just so happened it was a full arm that they gave me. The doctors asked if Akela was ready for surgery and as a person with robotics training herself, she knew perfectly well that the rest of her arm had to be removed for the prosthetic to be attached. She could have easily declined and asked robotics for just a hand but as the arm was already 'printed' there wasn't much point.

It seems reading over this complaint that the actual point of the complaint has been missed entirely.

 

Common misconception, you do not have to remove a full arm to attach a hand, and you can't print only a hand. How it works is, robotics prints a full arm, and then they put the full arm on your hand and it becomes attached as a robotic hand. So, whether you want an arm or a hand, you print a robotic arm and attach to based on if you want a full arm or just a hand, no full limb amputation required.

[moltenkore]

I play Akela Ha'kim, hello.

Medical didn't contact robotics for the replacement limb, I did and it just so happened it was a full arm that they gave me. The doctors asked if Akela was ready for surgery and as a person with robotics training herself, she knew perfectly well that the rest of her arm had to be removed for the prosthetic to be attached. She could have easily declined and asked robotics for just a hand but as the arm was already 'printed' there wasn't much point.

It seems reading over this complaint that the actual point of the complaint has been missed entirely.

 

Common misconception, you do not have to remove a full arm to attach a hand, and you can't print only a hand. How it works is, robotics prints a full arm, and then they put the full arm on your hand and it becomes attached as a robotic hand. So, whether you want an arm or a hand, you print a robotic arm and attach to based on if you want a full arm or just a hand, no full limb amputation required.

 

That's not entirely accurate. Robotics has to make just a hand these days. In the old code you could attached a arm to a hand but not anymore.

Edit: Attaching an arm to a hand just because of code mechanics is rather dumb from an IC and RP point of view.

Edit 2: Due to a PM I received, I thought I'd do some testing. If you hack off someones whole arm with an energy sword you are able to mount an entire arm to hand area and it will replace the hand (which is rather odd) however, If I hack off someone's hand with an energy sword you have to actually remove the ghost hand with a saw before mounting the arm onto the hand, which creates a new hand. Rather odd mechanics and perhaps worth an issue report later.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

That's not entirely accurate. Robotics has to make just a hand these days. In the old code you could attached a arm to a hand but not anymore.

 

No. Robotics can only make arms or legs. You can attach either to a missing hand, arm, foot or leg, it actually doesn't matter.

[witchbells]

I've neglected to respond because of the complexity of the issue. IncognitoJesus had asked me to speak to you instead because he was involved and asked me to inform you that you were suspended. He did this without specifying that you were suspended from medical doctor only for the shift, which was only corrected after you left and the damage was done.

I assumed this would settle itself, and I'm really sorry about the clusterfuck that happened.

[Wolfwood88]

I've neglected to respond because of the complexity of the issue. IncognitoJesus had asked me to speak to you instead because he was involved and asked me to inform you that you were suspended. He did this without specifying that you were suspended from medical doctor only for the shift, which was only corrected after you left and the damage was done.

I assumed this would settle itself, and I'm really sorry about the clusterfuck that happened.

 

Yeah, there was some miscommunication, it's alright these things happen. I wasn't even aware at the time that you though I may be potentially trying to abuse the spawn system to circumvent my suspension, since that wasn't my intent, it hadn't really occurred to me, so I think we were just coming at this from two different points of view, and because I was already frustrated about the silly nature of the incident, it got escalated to this level. You specify that I was suspended from Medical doctor only, and that's where the confusion came from, so I am confused now; Is there another type of suspension that IncognitoJesus could have specified that would have actually resulted in me having to be kept off station that shift? I am just asking for clarification, I don't want to re open the issue, I consider it closed and well handled and appreciate all of the responses.

[incognitojesus]

I've neglected to respond because of the complexity of the issue. IncognitoJesus had asked me to speak to you instead because he was involved and asked me to inform you that you were suspended. He did this without specifying that you were suspended from medical doctor only for the shift, which was only corrected after you left and the damage was done.

I assumed this would settle itself, and I'm really sorry about the clusterfuck that happened.

 

Yeah, there was some miscommunication, it's alright these things happen. I wasn't even aware at the time that you though I may be potentially trying to abuse the spawn system to circumvent my suspension, since that wasn't my intent, it hadn't really occurred to me, so I think we were just coming at this from two different points of view, and because I was already frustrated about the silly nature of the incident, it got escalated to this level. You specify that I was suspended from Medical doctor only, and that's where the confusion came from, so I am confused now; Is there another type of suspension that IncognitoJesus could have specified that would have actually resulted in me having to be kept off station that shift? I am just asking for clarification, I don't want to re open the issue, I consider it closed and well handled and appreciate all of the responses.

The only other "suspension" I could have done would have been to ask the Captain for a termination, which I wouldn't have done because that would've been stupid and yeah. The suspension was done because a medical decision was made that (from my character's point of view) could have been a liability for the corporation. Since he's a head of staff, he obviously would try to cover his own ass since it would've happened in his department. But yeah, it did end up being pretty stupid because of the clash of mechanics and roleplay. It was only a suspension from medical doctor for the shift.

[Garnascus]

Locking and archiving since this is resolved!