Tricking Trapster - Staff complaint.

[Roderick Grey]

BYOND Key: Roderick Grey

Staff BYOND Key: TrickingTrapster

Game ID: bAvOUf

Reason for complaint: Not really sure why it deserved a warning, seemed more like an opinionated "I don't like your particular way of antagging" than any actual violation of the rules, we discussed it, he pulled rank telling me it's not my call either way so I figured I'd bring the discussion here:

Evidence/logs/etc: (excuse the terrible typing)

Additional remarks: just seems like it was rather biased warning seeing as the only person that even tried to get on the shuttle was Tricking's character; he had another mod that could've handled this issue but he chose to deal with it himself. I look forward to seeing the warning better justified here.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Guest

[TrickingTrapster]

To clarify a few things: This reflects on the round before the one this screenshot was made in. It was a vampire round, during deadhour. He was having a "gang" of thralls beating everyone up he didn't like ICly, which yes, wasn't against the rules, but I personally didn't like it. It had some buildup, he killed the rest of sec until he was the only sec left and just terrorized the crew. Then, when the shuttle came, he "banned" it, not letting anyone on it.

This is where I drew the line, because it just destroys end of round roleplay. Yes, it made sense for him ICly, but so does escaping for captured criminals and we don't allow that either during that time. In my eyes it falls under "indirect EoR grief". My sentence about it not being his call was referring to him stating it didn't fall under eorg.

The other staff on at the moment was SirCatnip, whose character was thralled. I can't speak for him but I'm convinced he shares my opinion.

[Roderick Grey]

To clarify a few things: This reflects on the round before the one this screenshot was made in. It was a vampire round, during deadhour. He was having a "gang" of thralls beating everyone up he didn't like ICly.

 

Everyone got beatings, everyone.

he killed the rest of sec until he was the only sec left and just terrorized the crew.

 

I killed Nanako (the only other sec in the department), who shot at me while I had an MD hostage, I then left their body with the MD to be cloned.

 

Then, when the shuttle came, he "banned" it, not letting anyone on it.

This is where I drew the line, because it just destroys end of round roleplay.

I had taken over the station, icly it was mine and so was the crew. A tyrant vampire suddenly letting everyone hop on a shuttle to go swap stories on the odin would've been destroying RP, I was an antag that the crew needed to work together to overthrow, they didn't so there were ic consequences. If you didn't like not being able to board the shuttle you should've done something about it ic instead of using your mod privileges to vent your frustration.

 

The other staff on at the moment was SirCatnip, whose character was thralled. I can't speak for him but I'm convinced he shares my opinion.

 

I spoke to SirCatnip about this as well. If you felt so certain you probably should've let him handle talking with me as you were directly involved. You were literally the only person escorted off the shuttle. I talked to Catnip about whether or not I should contest this and he said he was neutral on the matter, but if I ahelped beforehand he would've approved it hands down.

 

which yes, wasn't against the rules, but I personally didn't like it.

 

this pretty much sums up my opinion of this warning.

[TrickingTrapster]

"but if I ahelped beforehand.". Yet you didn't, which makes it an issue. I don't get why you expect a crew of, what, 4 people left, try to engage a person with supernatural powers and his thralls, who are all armed to the teeth with the tactical armory's contents.

"using your mod privileges to vent your frustration". Stop assuming I did this over a personal gripe. You're trying to attack me personally here, that's not very nice.

"should've let him handle talking to me". Catnip was just as involved as I am, being your thrall ordered to keep everyone off the shuttle. It would not have made much of a difference. Like he said, he would have been fine with it /if you ahelped beforehand/, which, may I remind you, you did not.

The earlier statements were more of a breakdown for the round than about the warning itself, to give a bit of context. The bit about only killing Nanako and such.

[Roderick Grey]

I don't get why you expect a crew of, what, 4 people left, try to engage a person with supernatural powers and his thralls, who are all armed to the teeth with the tactical armory's contents.

A vampire doesn't start with armory access and thralls, the crew had ample time to work against me if they so chose, they didn't. We had a fairly passive crew which was frustrating for both of us, I continued to escalate the threat in order to goad the crew out of their departments. I also strictly controlled what the thralls took out of the armory, and personally carried next to nothing from the armory.

 

"using your mod privileges to vent your frustration". Stop assuming I did this over a personal gripe. You're trying to attack me personally here, that's not very nice.

I'm not attacking you, I just think that your bias is showing. the whole warning is shaky and was poorly justified. I feel the only thing tipping the balance is the fact it directly, almost exclusively affected you.

 

Catnip was just as involved as I am, being your thrall ordered to keep everyone off the shuttle.

He was involved on the offending party, a bwoink coming from him would've been more neutral than coming from the direct victim. You even complained about it in looc before taking it to ahelps.

[TrickingTrapster]

"if they chose". Remember that people have to stay in-character. The crew was passive with a reason, they have both no experience in combat nor experience with vampires. While the latter is obvious to everyone, I don't think you get the first part. Non-security personnel are not expected to have any combat experience, so they most likely do not unless their second job is security. This was a huge problem that round in general because you were both the only security officer until Nanako arrived AND the vampire. While your concept of a tyrannical vampire can work, I think it would have worked a lot better on a more well-staffed shift. Deadhour is a delicate thing when antagging and your execution of it was a little sloppy from my point of view. No command staff didn't help either, especially after you got the spare ID.

"I'm not attacking you" Okay, but if you aren't, "Using your mod privileges to vent your frustration" is a poor choice of words.

"complained about it in looc before taking it to ahelps". I was trying to explain to you why you can't do that without having to resort to my "mod privileges" as you call them. However, as I saw it, you immediately shot into the defense and started to what I can only describe as lawyering your way out of it.

"a bwoink from him would have been more neutral". I'm pretty sure you would have still received a warning, since you didn't ahelp about your arguably questionable antag decisions.

[Roderick Grey]

I was trying to explain to you why you can't do that without having to resort to my "mod privileges" as you call them. However, as I saw it, you immediately shot into the defense.

 

No, first you started complaining saying "this is lame" while being removed from the shuttle in looc, then you started accusing me of breaking the rules, so yeah, I got defensive, I then told you to ahelp if you had an issue, instead you bwoinked me.

 

I'm pretty sure you would have still received a warning

 

You don't know that, neither of us do, either way you shouldn't of tried to deal with it as the victim when you had another mod present.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Guest

[TrickingTrapster]

"first, you started complaining." Me stating it was lame was me stating my opinion on it, not directly complaining about the event. I did not take my opinion into account when I wrote the warning.

"you don't know that" Actually, based on a sentence Catnip himself said, I am pretty sure of it. He said he would be fine with it /if you ahelped/. But you did not, so the logical conclusion is that he is not fine with the way things went down.

[Roderick Grey]

"first, you started complaining." Me stating it was lame was me stating my opinion on it, not directly complaining about the event. I did not take my opinion into account when I wrote the warning.

 

There is literally no way for you to prove that, if you wanted to be unbiased you let catnip handle it.

 

"you don't know that" Actually, based on a sentence Catnip himself said, I am pretty sure of it.

 

No, it's just speculation. Don't speak for other mods on decisions you made alone, if you want their vouch ask them to post.

 

"I'm not attacking you" Okay, but if you aren't, "Using your mod privileges to vent your frustration" is a poor choice of words.

 

No, I don't think it is. You didn't like how I was antagging, you complained about it in looc when I did something to you ic that you disliked and then instead of leaving it to the more neutral moderator you dealt with it yourself. I did something ic that really wasn't breaking the rules (grey area) and you used your moderator powers to get even. You want me to treat you like you made an unbiased decision but you didn't, you were directly involved, expressed your frustration in looc and then dealt with it personally in ahelp instead of conferring with catnip and letting him handle it.

[TrickingTrapster]

"wasn't really breaking the rules (grey area)" That, right there. A grey area can both be punished and not punished depending on the circumstances. It's one of the reasons moderators and by extension admins exist on this server, to determine if people that get into the grey area are being in the wrong or not.

"There is literally no way for you to prove that." Right back at you, you have no way to prove that I wasn't. At that point I felt catnip was just as involved as me since he was under your direct command ICly.

"No, it's just speculation." I asked Catnip to give this a read and voice his opinion, since we both keep referencing him.

[Roderick Grey]

I feel like this is just me trying to push the same issue over and over again. You used your moderator privileges to make a call on a grey area antag action you were the direct and sole victim of. You had a mod there you should've differed to but you're claiming that he was "just as involved as you were" and that's just blatantly false; he was a thrall, an accomplice, he wasn't even the one to escort you off the shuttle, Kasia was.

You can't whine and argue with me in looc, then 20 seconds later take it to ahelps and act like you're totally unbiased. It was a grey area, and you took it upon yourself to tip the scales, the fact you didn't defer to catnip and rushed to deal with it yourself is evidence that your judgement of the situation was poor/clouded.

If you don't like the particular way I antag that's tough. If you actually want to be helpful and give me advice on how to be a better antag you're welcome to give me feedback via discord as a fellow player.

[TrickingTrapster]

First and foremost, yes, I don't like the way you antag, but that doesn't have to do with this warning. This was purely about your end-of-round move you pulled right there.

Secondly, me making calls on grey area antag actions is one of the reasons I am a mod for. We were talking about it in LOOC when the round ended with no way to delay it. We were not done talking, so I took it to PMs because it was becoming an issue and I did not want to involve other players into the discussion. At that point I started treating it like I bwoinked you instead, since you were being overly defensive in my eyes.

My job as moderator is to be unbiased when I am making calls like that, so yes, I can and I'm supposed to act unbiased when it's taken to ahelps. I did not defer to catnip because, like I said, /at that moment/, I felt he was pretty involved in the matter. Catnip himself witnessed the warning I wrote and it did not seem any issues were taken on his side, making me more confident he would have warned you too.

I did not "rush" to deal with it, I simply continued where we left off in the last round. And, if I'm totally honest, to me, this feels like the warning ruined your fun of being an antag and you're making a complaint over it. Not saying that's the actual case, but that's what it feels like.

[Catnip]

Alright, since I've been mentioned quite a fair bit here, here's my side/opinions.

First off, regarding me being involved. I was thralled, and under direct order of the Roderick, therefore directly involved. Trapster, as a normal crewmember, was only involved via being the only remaining crew ordered off the shuttle (everyone else was either dead or hiding).

Regarding the incident itself. IF you ahelped for clearance beforehand, there wouldn't have been any issues, and judging the way things were going ICly, it might have been approved. However, you didn't, and ordering your thralls to escort people off of the departures shuttle does count as conflict. You should always ahelp for clearance before touching departures.

Basically, I see the warning as valid, and I'm confident there was no bias involved. Messing with departures, causing conflict without ahelping for clearance isn't a good thing to do, and will almost always result in punishment.

[Dreamix]

"Conflict is permitted to continue elsewhere on the station, and in the escape-arm/shuttle if there's prior roleplay involved."

Eh, just saying. It seems, that the vampire was still bullying the crew before the crew transfer. That looks like some prior roleplay was involved. And that also looks like you are going a bit overzealous (if that's the word?) with the whole "ahelp before breathing" thing.

Do whatever.

[TrickingTrapster]

No, not really. Giving people beatings and taking away their stuff is not the same as denying access to the shuttle. If anything it was him abusing the fact he was secvamp and the crew being unable to do anything about it. That action did not have any prior roleplay involved, he just rode up to the escape wing in a cargo tug and "banned" the shuttle.

[Garnascus]

Discussed this complaint with serveris a bit ago. The principle of the warning is fine, we dont think beating people up and causing a ruckus is enough to invoke the clause dreamix posted. We look for a clear intent and a good reason for things like this. Even still the reason roderick had wasnt too bad of one. We do however pretty strictly enforce people asking permission to do a few things. Messing with atmos/the engine, bombs in high traffic areas, and messing with the escape shuttle. Doing so keeps us in the loop so we dont go "WTF why is X doing Y" and covers your own behind.

I have modified the warning's wording to better reflect this as trick admitted himself he phrased it poorly. With that i think this issue is mostly resolved. Its hardly a warning we will hold against you if you gank a janitor or memepost IC. Thoughts?

[Roderick Grey]

I had made plenty of announcements using the captain's I.D declaring the station under occupation and management by an entity other than nanotransen and I also specifically made the announcement that the shuttle was banned before blocking it with the cargo tug and escorting the one person off who denied the announcement, Tricking's character. There was DEFINITELY prior roleplay before I had them cuffed and escorted off the shuttle not allowing crew to return to the odin was a rational and ic-consistent choice.

If the issue is that I didn't ahelp in a grey area that is fine, although that was literally never brought up by tricking, at any point in looc or ahelps. From my perspective it was simply him being salty about me playing an antag that was abusive to the crew, and I feel like the warning's wording and his own posts here reflect his bias:

 

If the warning is there to serve as a reminder to ahelp for grey areas that's fine, at the moment it pretty much only says : "I didn't have fun when you were an antag, please don't RP as meanies" and I feel like any moderator reading that warning out of context would think the same. If the warning is to remain that's fine, but I want the warning reworded to actually show a proper justification/clarification added , which tricking didn't provide.

[Garnascus]

I did reword it, i think theres an interface bug if i try to edit it when you arent logged in. just shoot me an ahelp if you see me on.

[DatBerry]

I think this is resolved? Well can always pm me to re-open it.

Locking and archiving.