[Denied] Ban Appeal, Science job ban

[Absynth]

BYOND Key: Absynth

Total Ban Length: perm

Banning staff member's Key: SirCatnip

Reason of Ban: Blew up an antag with a bomb

Reason for Appeal:

I play as Ein, a warrior class Vaurca who has no science skills other than crafting weapons. Ein is a very common sight in R&D and the Vaurca holds a pretty serious amount of loyalty to its co-workers; it has been rescued by and has rescued them many times over. Ein very rarely gets to actually use the weapons it makes, rather people are by now pretty familiar with Ein's bomb tests in Toxins.

Cue to the round in question, where I am immediately met in the shuttle with full air loss and emergency lights, and the RD immediately demanding over comms that I head to Toxins and begin making bombs, to deal with intruders on board. Since Sec (Lukas Chapman in specific) is there and making the same demands I make my way to sealed R&D through telescience and begin setting up my mixes. I give a first, shitty bomb to Lukas pretty quickly and begin making a second one.

Just as the second one is finished and I am about to give it to the RD, I get a warning from Cadmus that the intruders are somewhere in Science maint. I hear decontruction sounds somewhere nearby. As I start to high-tail it out of there with what I have done, the east third of Toxins suddenly explodes, along with most of the gas setup, the APC in the room, and the majority of maint (it ended up being a mercenary bomb planted there).

I am sucked out into space along with the bomb in my hand. All my tools are blasted into the room, the lights go out, and presumably, deadly fuel starts leaking out everywhere since there were canisters and such everywhere. Unconscious I am paincritted (I find out later I lost a hand) and blinded. I wake up in space, put on my internals, and immediately there is a red-hardsuited unknown firing an ion gun directly at me, with particularly poor aim since they hit the wall as I lept onto the single tile of floor. I grab the bomb, throw it in the unknown's direction as I'm bleeding out, then quickly PDA and trigger it. I'm of course caught in this blast as well and then rescued miraculously by a fearless Cadmus the janitor borg, and later I discover that I gibbed one of the antags (out of 4) who turned out to be Alberyk.

I am immediately PMed by SirCatnip demanding why I was making bombs; I told him the RD and sec told me to, as they did. He kept insisting that I could have done something else except throw the bomb, and has already stated he wasn't actually there to see it (and did not seem to know who even blew the first bomb) but has given no actual examples of what I could have done in a blown-out toxins lab with no power, blast doors down, with no tools except a bomb, which is my character's job to make.

SirCatnip seems to think the most logical course of action would be for Ein to suddenly shriek, drop the bomb for the antag to take, and flail at the doors until death. He repeatedly stated that if you want to kill anyone, be security, which I find a little bizarre. Even the rules for escalation don't apply, as I was bombed, then ioned, and I met it with a bomb. In my own department, meaning I did not chase or pursue anyone. That's de-escalation.

Permanently banning me from the department I play most (and that 75% of my characters are based in & have friends in) seems frankly a bit outrageous for something like this.

[Guest Complete Garbage]

I didn't witness the events in question, so I'll try to keep this brief;

I don't really understand what a science permajobban accomplishes here, at all. Unless Absynth has a history of abusing materials in the science department to validhunt, then I see no reason why this couldn't be a timed jobban(or just no jobban at all, but w/e). Seriously, has Absynth done this before? And if so, some details would be fun. Also, can we get the PM logs between Absynth and Catnip?

[Catnip]

Alright, first off, thank you for making a new appeal with better and more concise wording and points. You've explained your side of the situation better, and it's something we can work with. I'll go through the relevant points in a brief post now, and move on from there.

There seemed to be some confusion about wether or not I saw what happened, and yes, I as well as other staff members, was watching the incident as it played out.

 

I wake up in space, put on my internals, and immediately there is a red-hardsuited unknown firing an ion gun directly at me, with particularly poor aim since they hit the wall as I lept onto the single tile of floor.

He was not firing at you, I believe a shot missed the actual target and in turn passed you, but regardless I can understand that you mistook this for him targeting you, I though that was the case at first too before I saw what he was actually shooting at. An understandable mistake, I don't blame you for that in the slightest.

 

Unless Absynth has a history of abusing materials in the science department to validhunt, then I see no reason why this couldn't be a timed jobban(or just no jobban at all, but w/e). Seriously, has Absynth done this before?

In short, yes. This kind of thing has been a recurring issue, hence the actions taken.

Basically, my main question for Absynth is as follows. Do you understand that having a bomb tossed at you, gibbing you instantly by a scientist who you haven't shown any personal aggression toward (Again, the ion bolt going near you was not intentional, I can say that with full confidence.) is an OOC issue? Regardless of character backstory and race, without the proper lead up and escalation non-Security personnel such as scientists should not be fighting and killing antagonists.

 

Generally, avoid playing hero. There are certain opportunities every character can seize to overthrow an antagonist, but going rambo on syndicate ops as a frail, unarmed medical doctor constitutes a failure to roleplay and will likely end with you getting shot. Also, if you are unarmed, and being held at gunpoint, it is generally expected for you to comply with your captor, or risk suffering the consequences.

[Absynth]

Unless Absynth has a history of abusing materials in the science department to validhunt, then I see no reason why this couldn't be a timed jobban(or just no jobban at all, but w/e). Seriously, has Absynth done this before?

In short, yes. This kind of thing has been a recurring issue, hence the actions taken.

 

I have never done this "kind of thing" before. I think I've killed maybe one other antag in the entire time I've played on Aurora. I've died far, far more times as antag.

 

Basically, my main question for Absynth is as follows. Do you understand that having a bomb tossed at you, gibbing you instantly by a scientist who you haven't shown any personal aggression toward (Again, the ion bolt going near you was not intentional, I can say that with full confidence.) is an OOC issue? Regardless of character backstory and race, without the proper lead up and escalation non-Security personnel such as scientists should not be fighting and killing antagonists.

 

There are certain opportunities every character can seize to overthrow an antagonist, but going rambo on syndicate ops as a frail, unarmed medical doctor constitutes a failure to roleplay and will likely end with you getting shot. Also, if you are unarmed, and being held at gunpoint, it is generally expected for you to comply with your captor, or risk suffering the consequences.

 

Ein never "went rambo", and immediately fled with help after the second blast. I would say 'having a bomb made and ready and within reach at the perfect time' counts as a pretty good certain opportunity. I mean, what other opportunity would fit more than this one? I had literally nothing else, was already critted, and (from my point of view) there were very dangerous bolts of energy flying my way. I had a bomb on hand which my character, out of probably any on station at the time, was trained to use.

I would also argue that blowing up my department and sucking me into space was personal aggression - why else would they specifically target the toxins wing of R&D, right after there was talk over R&D channel about bombs being made? I never went out into maint for instance at any time even after I had a bomb made (gave it to sec), and I was told they were around R&D.

I know it sucks to be an an antag and get insta-gibbed. If I had of been maybe 4 tiles south I would have gotten smeared by that first merc bomb. If I had of been 1 tile northeast I would be hit by the ion shot, the bomb would have triggered, my heater exploded and everyone in the area would have been vaporized. I think I picked the best of all possible outcomes here. If I am personally getting bombed and someone is using an ion gun, directed at me or not, then I consider that pretty serious escalation.

I would however have not thrown the bomb if I was held up by the merc instead, I would have complied because getting shot would probably mean getting us (and the R&D wing) blown to smithereens.

[Roderick Grey]

I'm struggling to understand why hurling a bomb at an antagonist that from the player's standpoint, had just blown up the room they were working in plus their hand and were now, without a word "attempting" to shoot at them is an issue? I feel like using the bomb, which they were told to make and had at their disposal is a sound move ic and ooc. The situation from the player's standpoint had already escalated to a kill or be killed. Just because from the mod's and the antag's perspective that actually wasn't the case doesn't really matter, as the player was mutilated in the antag's explosion and woke up to gunfire, which renders the players observation to be pretty well justified.

From my perspective it appears that Catnip saw what had occurred, received an ahelp after a gibbed antag didn't understand why some random scientist they weren't paying any attention to just blew them up and I think that's a totally fair complaint to make.I'm assuming the interaction between Absynth and Catnip, from what I saw of the previous thread with absynth attempting to justify himself was very emotionally charged, and/or poorly explained and taking into consideration Absynth's supposed "history" would render the science ban a fair move to make in the situation.

But now that Absynth has calmed down a bit and explained his reasoning clearly, unless it's entirely false, I don't think punishment is really necessary.

What I do think you need to realize Absynth is that the staff aren't going to respond well to aggression, sarcasm or mockery so just keep that in mind when you're trying to plead your case, especially on the forums.

[Taintedglory]

I have much to agree with this ban, but I'll keep it concise because I dont do paragraphs well. I'll also be honest upfront to clear up anyone thinking I am Biased, because I am. I don't like you nor do I like any of your characters. I have actively made several complaints about you in Ahelps and on Discord.

Ein is a Memetastic Vaurca. Wearing a weird Wig and doing things that I honestly think a Vaurca BA Warrior would never do, including working in Science making bombs. The RP from this Vaurca makes me just treat it like a Child at best, and ignore it at worst.

Absynth in general makes some of the worst decisions in Science, including all the complaints I made against them in their Whitelist Head of Staff app.

Examples are: Growing plants wildly throughout the station, Making gear in Research and playing with it without remorse or reason, blatantly ignoring orders from Heads of Staff and arguing with decisions heads have made to stop their characters from "Playing around"

In general, I think the Job ban is light of a punishment done to them. Its the Lightest I would ever do to someone who has caused this much OOC annoyance in the community with their IC actions.

[DatBerry]

I wasn't directly involved dealing with this, was just relaying someone else's thoughts, but ill give in my 2 cents.

He could've escaped, he didnt even try to. He saw one shot towards him and assumed he was being shot at, but this does not warrant taking them out with a bomb, its an instant kill with no RP. No projectile actually hit him, in the time he grabbed the bomb they could've instead put on internals and hid away. Vaurca are space proof so being vented wasn't that much of an issue.

There's two scenarios: the first shot that He saw move towards came at the very begining, in that case he would've had time to notice they were actually busy with security and went along with the bombing in a panic, which i am assuming is the case.

scenario 2: he grabbed the bomb before the shot flew next to him and was planning to bomb the antags the moment he saw them due to the RD's orders. Wish i hope is not the case because that'd be worth a server ban

If we allowed this, then we would have to allow antags to blow up bystanders/civilians without RP just because they might have something up their sleeves.

As i said, im not the one handling this issue, though im more angry at the RD that ordered this and used them indirectly to valid hunt.

Scientist were always held to higher standards when it came to powergaming and validhunting due to how easy it is for them to put the valids in the sack. Just like security and following the chain of command and regulations.

Now the last part of is just pure onions but i dont have any idea why a hot tempered, aggressive, combat oriented antman would be working in the fields of science, it makes no sense. Imo its the same as a military soldier with many years serving in the front decided to suddenly stop half way with his life and take a U turn on his career, while humans can be more flexible i dont see how a vaurca with a chosen mind set at birth would make such a drift, seeing as how they still maintain the warrior attitude.

Ill have to talk to lord fowl about the last point, if the other mins didn't talk to him already.

Edit: OP was complaining before about people posting their opinions on their earlier appeal without having been involved or adding anything new, just jumping into arguments.

[Absynth]

a) I had no idea the antags or security were there. I saw one red hardsuit and blue shots coming at me from a hole in space. That's all. As a long time SS13 player I can confidently say that trying to escape that room in my current state with hostile enemies nearby (and no borg to pull my body out) would have certainly ended in my untimely death.

b) Ein is a warrior caste devoted to weapons of war, not actual fighting. It's not a robot; it's an Unbound with its own thoughts and goals just like everyone else. Creating, learning about, and experimenting with weapons is a pretty important and rarely-understood job, and Ein does so with minimal damage to anything (except the toxins test site). Please go read my whitelist approval because that's where the character is from.

[Roderick Grey]

If we allowed this, then we would have to allow antags to blow up bystanders/civilians without RP just because they might have something up their sleeves.

 

No, not really it doesn't create a trust issue between civilians and antags ooc, a reasonable and considerate antagonist would note as they barge into toxins that:

A: Toxins are where bombs come from

and:

B: Scientists inside toxins or near toxins may indeed have a bomb.

This isn't a civvie covertly chucking a grenade at antags in a hallway without provocation, this is an antag making a conscious choice to enter a high-risk area with the possibility of staff working there being potentially dangerous, especially when harmed and cornered. Antags work counter to all crew, not just security. You can't expect to blow open somebodies work place and start a shoot out near them with any kind of consequence or reaction from them.

Antags always have to be aware of bystanders and civilians, ignoring certain crew members involved in the conflicts you're creating just because they're not security or part your objective is silly. I'm not saying dispatch them... but certainly consider them, why they're there and what they're doing, because if you don't it may turn out the varuca whose hand you blew off as you entered is now trapped in a room with you and has a bomb which they feel threatened enough to use...

 

OP was complaining before about people posting their opinions on their earlier appeal without having been involved or adding anything new, just jumping into arguments.

 

From reading that thread I think his primary issue was people hijacking a ban appeal thread to use as a platform for personal attacks, something I also have an issue with, from experience.

[Ricky_the_banshee]

Okay, so let's see this through.

What I'm looking at are TWO confused sides. One formerly being that of the antag who felt they got "fucked over" and a player who pretty much assumed it was okay to fend off an antanogist after misplacing an ion shot mend for another target to be an attempt to harm them. I get where Absynth is getting from, I honestly do.

I believe what has driven most of the final judgement to be as it is was mainly because of your Science shenanigans as a whole. The situation didn't help as most things were unclear and triggered wrong responses from both sides on this case. We had also took in account one incident where your character, Ein, was complained about for rushing into a Mercenary shuttle. Supposdly, you claimed that due to their /Warrior-caste/ state as well as being provoked by a Vaurca who was presumambly part of a Hostile hive it was deemed OK to chase them down. This act .What also didn't help was your hostile attitude throughout the PMs. Honestly, everything may have gone smoothly if it weren't for your random passive-aggressive commentary and mockery throughout the PMs. It dragged most of the attention AWAY from your arguments, which is a bad thing as you can see now.

As for the whole bombing ordeal. I wasn't you at that point, in fact, I was one of the Mercs. BUT, I was not caught in the bombing incident nor did I realize the bombing was done by you until I received the message through Ahelp, so I hold no grudges to you. From what you're saying, you were removed a few tiles from the bomb and took your chance to pick it up. I'm not sure if there was any time to just flee, considering Vaurca can survive in space. But throwing the bomb still seems excessive in my eyes.

Regarding the should non-security NOT be allowed to defend themselves and take out antagonists?. YES AND NO. It depends on the situation both the antagonist and potentional victim are stuck in. Is the Antagonist fully equipped with Military/Heavy gear, holding a weapon which could inflict fatal injuries OR holding you at gunpoint, it's EXPECTED that the victim surrenders if they are not given an opportunity. From this, you might ask; Then what makes throwing the bomb different from all this?. The difference is the collatoral damage that follows with bombing. It sets out a bad message as you show little to no self-preservation at that point since there was a huge risk that you may have ended up in the blast radius, killing you or fatally wounding you in the process. You've defended yourself by claiming your character was in a state of panic and utilized the bomb as a last resort, but then again, was running also an option at that point? As you've stated, your character prefers developing weaponry, not actually fighting. Nevertheless, it still brings up the fact that you're expected not to combat/attempt to kill the Antagonist on a fly.

I'm willing to give you another chance to show that you're past the Science shenanigans and are willing to watch out for your behaviour during PMs. I'll be honest, I've been familiar with your attitude too. BUT, I've also seen that you're capable of being a nice player and do wish to contribute somehow to role-play, which is a characteristic I'd love to see in every player that steps into the server. I don't make the final decision on the removal of this appeal, but I'll be one of the few to give you a chance. You can count on that.

[Catnip]

I agree with what Ricky said here, especially that bit at the end. If you're able to take everything said in this thread into account, and show that you're past the shenanigans, as well as watch your attitude in PMs, I'll be willing to lift the ban. As long as you know exactly where the line is, and that if you cross it again there won't be much lenience.

[Absynth]

Actually I'm even more confused than I was starting out.

What line exactly are we talking about? Killing antags? At what point exactly does self defense become bannable?

Was this ban because of my past actions in science, or what I currently did? It's hardly fair to bring up things that happened 6 months ago.

Personally I felt I was remarkably restrained during PMs given the situation. Can you give me an example of what I said that was bad?

[Absynth]

So are any of these questions going to be answered?

[DatBerry]

I believe you cross the line when you instantly gib them with a bomb, i mean they couldn't even run if they wanted to.

I believe its fair to bring your notes in science into consideration if you were talked to about them and you still continued to abuse science gadgets to such degrees.

The last part i can't give an answer to because i wasn't fully following the PM process at the time and its been a while, but i do remember your passive aggressiveness, it was enough for serveris drop a day ban over it, if you still want to know what exactly we can ask for logs and go through it.

[Absynth]

I'm not sure I agree at all about "abusing" science gadgets, as I tend to get all my paperwork and very rarely actually get even warned for anything I do in science. I mean, if an antag doesn't want to get bombed maybe they shouldn't be destroying and breaking into toxins knowing someone in there is currently making bombs. It seems pretty logical to me.

I guess my last question is; if Lukas Chapman had of thrown the bomb I gave him and blew up an antag, would he have been punished?

[DatBerry]

I guess my last question is; if Lukas Chapman had of thrown the bomb I gave him and blew up an antag, would he have been punished?

 

if he was shot at and wordlessly threw the bomb like you did, depending on his notes he could end up with a warning, a job ban or a server ban.

but ultimately its up to the staff member who took over the issue, we don't have a standard banning procedure list.

[Bygonehero]

What I do think you need to realize Absynth is that the staff aren't going to respond well to aggression, sarcasm or mockery so just keep that in mind when you're trying to plead your case, especially on the forums.

 

I didn't witness the events in question

 

Only post if involved. If you are not a moderator or administrator and were not involved in the incident(s) referred to, you may not post or reply to a staff complaint regarding said incident(s). It is permissible, however, to provide testimony regarding a staff member's behavior backed by proof, in the form of screenshots or logs.

[EDIT] My bad! Didn't see the changes!

Edited October 26, 2016 by Guest

[SierraKomodo]

What I do think you need to realize Absynth is that the staff aren't going to respond well to aggression, sarcasm or mockery so just keep that in mind when you're trying to plead your case, especially on the forums.

 

I didn't witness the events in question

 

Only post if involved. If you are not a moderator or administrator and were not involved in the incident(s) referred to, you may not post or reply to a staff complaint regarding said incident(s). It is permissible, however, to provide testimony regarding a staff member's behavior backed by proof, in the form of screenshots or logs.

 

Actually, the unban requests section is open for discussion from everyone. Here's the rules for this section: https://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=5267

[Absynth]

You can probably delete this appeal I just straight up stopped playing on Aurora due to being constantly ignored and belittled

[Catnip]

If you're still interested in appealing the ban, let me know. Apologies for the delay.

[Catnip]

Closing this due to inactivity, if you wish to try appealing this again, you're free to do so.