Ron Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 (edited) BYOND Key: Printer16 Staff BYOND Key: Aboshehab Game ID: bMr-ct70 Reason for complaint: Poorly/incorrectly handling a situation. Additional remarks: In the round I was an antagonist, specifically a vampire. I proceeded through my round not doing much just interacting with people. I took Pun Pun from the bar and killed him by sucking all of his blood before returning him to the bar. No one cared. Moving on, I glared and took blood from a janitor and carried on with no one knowing I did it. I decided to go on a frenzy to create roleplay for the medical and possibly science department. I drain my blood by spamming the presence verb and wait for me to switch over to frenzy mode. After a while I turn into the frenzied beast and roleplay with someone, hitting a wall down by the bathrooms. He called for medical, and they arrived along with an officer and Paul Jonson. Paul Jonson extended a tactical shield and followed me around with the other officer wordlessly. I went to the medical bay lobby and was told to 'Stop.' and to 'Get on the ground.' by Paul Jonson. He drew his energy gun and aimed it at me using the games aiming mechanic. I talked and moved a tile and was shot by him due to his improper handling of the aiming mechanic, mind you he was the HoS. Afterword's I attacked him in self-defense. The story ends there as I died shortly after, but the main focus of this is that he shouldn't have shot me in the first place. Period. It is the players responsibility to control the aiming mechanic. I was going to get down but he shot me prematurely when I have previously shown no aggression towards either of them. I contacted staff and was told, by Aboshehab, "I may have explained my point in an incorrect way. What I'm trying to say is that, mechanics or not, had a gun aimed at you, and you decided to move. Furthermore, I don't believe they were at fault of anything. It was reported that you broke down a wall, when security went to investigate, you went to medical. They tried to non-lethaly subdue you but as you can see, it did not really work out. With what I've seen and read, I still do not believe they did anything wrong. You are of course free to bring this up to another person considering I'm still on my trial." This is a double-edged sword as it would let players utilize the aiming mechanic to aim at people with the stun setting and if they other person moves or does anything to trigger it is their fault, thus allowing the gun-user to take him down without giving him a chance to roleplay with the justification "You moved a tile." or "You talked over radio." This should never be the case, but that is what the staff member above is implying. I heavily disagree with their reply, and how Paul Jonson handled the situation. It is up the gun wielder to control the gun aiming mechanic, not the one being aimed at. I showed zero aggression towards anyone until I was shot, drawing a gun and aiming at someone (who has shown no aggression at all) with a tactical shield in your hands is not the proper way to handle a situation as a head of security. My main point is he shouldn't have shot me. At all. Accidents or not, he is a whitelisted player that should now how to utilize the aiming mechanic, and if he doesn't he shouldn't be using the mechanic. I was also told by Aoshehab "He was chasing you around telling you to stop, or halt. When he aimed at you, he told you to drop on the ground. The gun was set on stun to non-lethaly take you down as well, regardless of whether or not it is a mechanic, the intention to take you down non-lethaly was there. It changed to lethal methods after you quite aggressively assaulted them, whether or not it was self defense, you did cause serious injuries to them." I again heavily disagree with this. This implies someone can go as a security officer, tell someone or a criminal to stop, draw their gun and aim at them and as long as the gun is loaded with non-lethals it's okay if you unload on them as they moved and triggered the mechanic. It also implies as long as your intentions are to take someone down on-lethally you can do it without giving them roleplay, as that's what happened here. Edited January 8, 2017 by Guest
Garnascus Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 I will wait for aboshe's reply until i give my thoughts here. then this will be reviewed.
Faris Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 Right, I'm going to start off with a bit of an opinion I've gotten based on your post. You're heavily generalizing what I'm saying which isn't really the case, as my ruling on the matter was based on specifics, logs, and facts. Let's start with your admin help itself "Request for Help:: Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?) (DIBS) (PP) (JMP|BDY): The HoS decided to shoot me with an energy gun when I was seeking medical help and I haven't previously harmed anyone or disobeyed his orders. ", now the request it self isn't entire true as you had disobeyed commands and requests given to you by security. So I'm going to start from the top when it's been reported that you were breaking down a wall with eyewitnesses. Emmanuel Nickolson (follow) hollers, "HELP!!!" [144.7] Emmanuel Nickolson (follow) hollers, "HELP!!!" Emmanuel Nickolson smashes the girder apart! What occurs next is that security moves towards you and a bit of a chase happens until you reach medical. I'm going to post logs in that were relevant to the situation. This is what started it Paul Jonson (follow) says, "STOP" Emmanuel Nickolson (follow) hollers, "HELP!!!" Paul Jonson aims the energy pistol at Emmanuel Nickolson! Paul Jonson (follow) says, "Drop on the floor" Emmanuel Nickolson (follow) hollers, "I NEED MEDICAL!!!" Paul Jonson pulls the trigger reflexively! Paul Jonson fires the energy pistol! Emmanuel Nickolson is hit by the stun beam in the chest! Paul Jonson pulls the trigger reflexively! Paul Jonson fires the energy pistol! Just from these logs and the fact they were chasing prior, indicates that their intent was visible along with the fact they provided you with verbal orders. The HoS in question, Paul Johnson aimed a weapon at you which meant that when you decided to move around, regardless of the fact he was using an aim mechanic, meant that you weren't being cooperative nor even responsive, this in my opinion was more than enough reason for them to non-lethally detain you. Moving on to where things got heated up. Keep in mind I'm going to trim some of these logs with repeats that won't contribute much. Emmanuel Nickolson is hit by the stun beam in the chest! Emmanuel Nickolson's eyes emit a blinding flash! Emmanuel Nickolson landed a powerful stomp on Paul Jonson's head! Paul Jonson looks momentarily disoriented. Emmanuel Nickolson stomped down hard on Paul Jonson's head! Paul Jonson looks momentarily disoriented. The wound on Paul Jonson's head widens with a nasty ripping noise. Emmanuel Nickolson slammed his black shoe down hard onto Paul Jonson's head! Paul Jonson has been weakened! You hear a loud cracking sound coming from Paul Jonson. Paul Jonson screams! You hear a sickening cracking sound coming from Paul Jonson's head. Emmanuel Nickolson landed a powerful stomp on Unknown (as Paul Jonson)'s head! Unknown (as Paul Jonson) looks momentarily disoriented. The wound on Unknown (as Paul Jonson)'s head widens with a nasty ripping noise. Emmanuel Nickolson stomped down hard on Unknown (as Paul Jonson)'s head! Unknown (as Paul Jonson) has been weakened! [security] Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra (follow) stammers, "B-BAK-K-KUP-P" [security] Paul Jonson (follow) stutters, "H-Hel-lp in-n m-med-dbay-y-y-y" [security] Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra (follow) stammers, "M-MED-DICA" Emmanuel Nickolson threw Unknown (as Paul Jonson) a glancing kick to the right leg! The wound on Unknown (as Paul Jonson)'s head widens with a nasty ripping noise. Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra draws .45 pistol, pointing it at the ground. [security] Kelly Price (follow) says, "Moving.." Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra fires .45 pistol! Emmanuel Nickolson blocks the rubber bullet with the tactical shield! Emmanuel Nickolson is hit by the rubber bullet in the chest! Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra fires .45 pistol! [security] Sslazhir Yinzr (follow) says, "Moving." With a flick of their wrist, Unknown (as Paul Jonson) extends their telescopic baton. Unknown (as Paul Jonson) has been shoved in the head with tactical shield by Emmanuel Nickolson! The wound on Unknown (as Paul Jonson)'s head widens with a nasty ripping noise. There's some more logs, pretty much the same thing of punching, rubber rounds and shield blocking so I'll skip those to where the really first lethal bullet was used. Kelly Price fires the revolver! *click click* Emmanuel Nickolson is hit by the bullet in the chest! Kelly Price fires the revolver! The bullet shrapnel sticks in the wound! You hear a loud cracking sound coming from Emmanuel Nickolson. Emmanuel Nickolson screams! Emmanuel Nickolson is hit by the bullet in the left foot! Emmanuel Nickolson (follow) says, "HE SHOT ME" Kelly Price fires the revolver! Emmanuel Nickolson is hit by the bullet in the chest! Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra holsters .45 pistol. Kelly Price fires the revolver! The bullet shrapnel sticks in the wound! The wound on Emmanuel Nickolson's upper body widens with a nasty ripping noise. Emmanuel Nickolson is hit by the bullet in the chest! Emmanuel Nickolson (follow) stutters, "F-FOR-R-R N-N-NO R-R-REAS-SON-N" Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra fires the taser gun! Emmanuel Nickolson blocks the electrode with the tactical shield! Emmanuel Nickolson is hit by the electrode in the chest! Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra fires the taser gun! Emmanuel Nickolson blocks the electrode with the tactical shield! Emmanuel Nickolson is hit by the electrode in the chest! Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra fires the taser gun! Emmanuel Nickolson is hit by the electrode in the chest! Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra fires the taser gun! Emmanuel Nickolson is hit by the electrode in the chest! Emmanuel Nickolson slumps to the ground, too weak to continue fighting.. Kelly Price (follow) exclaims, "Floor!" Emmanuel Nickolson (follow) stammers, "S-S-ST-TOP-P" Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra fires the taser gun! Emmanuel Nickolson is hit by the electrode in the left foot! Right now it's all out survival, they've got no clue what's going on, this seemingly normal assistant is taking so much punishment and appears to have caused more damage with his fists than they have to him. Emmanuel Nickolson (follow) stutters, "H-H-HE SH-HOT-T ME" Unknown (as Paul Jonson) collapses their telescopic baton. Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra puts the taser gun into the security belt (Khazkrarheahk). Emmanuel Nickolson slumps to the ground, too weak to continue fighting.. Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra has grabbed Emmanuel Nickolson passively! Emmanuel Nickolson (follow) stammers, "F-FOR-R N-NO R-REAS-S-SON" Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra has grabbed Emmanuel Nickolson aggressively (now hands)! Emmanuel Nickolson gasps for air! Notice from here Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra has grabbed Emmanuel Nickolson passively! Kelly Price (follow) says, "He's loyalty implanted.." Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra has grabbed Emmanuel Nickolson aggressively (now hands)! Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra puts Emmanuel Nickolson on the wood table. Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra has grabbed Emmanuel Nickolson passively! Kelly Price unloads the revolver. Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra has grabbed Emmanuel Nickolson aggressively (now hands)! With a flick of their wrist, Unknown (as Paul Jonson) extends their telescopic baton. They stopped beating the suspect and are trying to hold on to him Emmanuel Nickolson has grabbed Unknown (as Paul Jonson) passively! He resists and engages in a fight again, which prompts security to escalate again Emmanuel Nickolson has been struck in the head with telescopic baton by Unknown (as Paul Jonson)! Emmanuel Nickolson leaps at Kelly Price! Kelly Price reloads the revolver. Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra went for Emmanuel Nickolson's upper body but was blocked! Unknown (as Paul Jonson) collapses their telescopic baton. Emmanuel Nickolson (follow) stutters, "S-STOP-P-P" Sslazhir Yinzr blinds Emmanuel Nickolson with the flash! Kelly Price (follow) says, "Ah.." Emmanuel Nickolson (follow) stutters, "YOU S-SH-H-HIT-TS-S" Emmanuel Nickolson has been beaten in the upper body with stunbaton by Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra! Kelly Price holsters the revolver. Emmanuel Nickolson slumps to the ground, too weak to continue fighting.. Unknown (as Paul Jonson) is attempting to put handcuffs on Emmanuel Nickolson! Sslazhir Yinzr (follow) says, "Sss-" Emmanuel Nickolson (follow) stammers, "H-HE S-SHOT-T M-ME F-FOR N-N-NO F-FUC-CK-KIN-N-NG-G R-R-R-REAS-S-SON-N" Emmanuel Nickolson has been prodded in the upper body with the stunbaton by Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra! Emmanuel Nickolson screams! Kelly Price (follow) says, "Stop.." Emmanuel Nickolson has been prodded in the upper body with the stunbaton by Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra! Emmanuel Nickolson screams! Emmanuel Nickolson slumps to the ground, too weak to continue fighting.. The wooden chair has been hit by Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra with the stunbaton. The wooden chair has been hit by Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra with the stunbaton. Unknown (as Paul Jonson) is attempting to put handcuffs on Emmanuel Nickolson! Emmanuel Nickolson leaps at Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra! Unknown (as Paul Jonson) is attempting to put handcuffs on Emmanuel Nickolson! Unknown (as Paul Jonson) blocks Emmanuel Nickolson with the tactical shield! Kelly Price (follow) shouts, "Calm down!" Emmanuel Nickolson gasps! Emmanuel Nickolson punched Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra in his upper body! Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra falls down to the ground! Unknown (as Paul Jonson) is attempting to put handcuffs on Emmanuel Nickolson! Emmanuel Nickolson punched Unknown (as Paul Jonson) in his upper body! Chris Outfield (follow) says, "Oh-" Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra (follow) says, "ACK" Emmanuel Nickolson stomped down hard on Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra's head! Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra looks momentarily disoriented. Kelly Price draws the revolver, ready to shoot! Emmanuel Nickolson screams! Emmanuel Nickolson is hit by the electrode in the right foot! At this time, the Captain arrives and assists security Chris Outfield fires the energy pistol! Emmanuel Nickolson is hit by the laser in the chest! Chris Outfield fires the energy pistol! The laser misses Emmanuel Nickolson narrowly! Kelly Price aims the revolver at Emmanuel Nickolson! Emmanuel Nickolson seizes up and falls limp, their eyes dead and lifeless... Chris Outfield fires the energy pistol! With a flick of their wrist, Unknown (as Paul Jonson) extends their telescopic baton. Emmanuel Nickolson has been beaten in the upper body with stunbaton by Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra! The wound on Emmanuel Nickolson's upper body widens with a nasty ripping noise. Unknown (as Paul Jonson) collapses their telescopic baton. Kelly Price holsters the revolver. Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra puts the stunbaton into the security belt (Khazkrarheahk). Unknown (as Paul Jonson) is attempting to put handcuffs on Emmanuel Nickolson! Chris Outfield (follow) says, "Jessus christ." Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra (follow) says, "hell..." Unknown (as Paul Jonson) has put handcuffs on Emmanuel Nickolson! The HoS and Officer mention something after the deed was done Paul Jonson(as Paul Jonson) (follow) stammers, "W-W-Wh-hat-ts-s-s w-wr-ron-ng w-with t-th-h-hat-t-t-t t-t-thing-g ?" Khazkrarheahk Sanu'dra (follow) says, "IT WASN'T GOING DOWN" This spoiler includes an adminhelp transcript between myself and Printer16, the person that created this complaint. Printer16 (Emmanuel Nickolson) (follow|body) whines, "what a shitty HoS, I try to RP and go to medical and he draws a gun on me and shoots me" to Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): Hello, can you explain to me what happened? [Player PM] Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): Yeah. I went green and was going to medical to help make some RP and the HoS decided to draw and shoot me with an energy gun when he gave 0 orders or said anything else. [Player PM] Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): And caused me to die in the end because I defended myself from him. to Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): I had a look at the logs, and there's been a mention of him telling to you stop and later to drop on the ground, while the gun was aimed at you. [Player PM] Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): He shot me right after before I had a chance to do either. to Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): It was a reflex shot from the aiming mechanic. [Player PM] Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): I don't care. He should have been more careful. [Player PM] Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): I give zero shits that it was a mechanic, he is responsible for controlling it and not shooting people when they are trying to RP. [Player PM] Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): And haven't done anything to harm anyone. to Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): He was chasing you around telling you to stop, or halt. When he aimed at you, he told you to drop on the ground. The gun was set on stun to non-lethaly take you down as well, regardless of whether or not it is a mechanic, the intention to take you down non-lethaly was there. It changed to lethal methods after you quite aggressively assaulted them, whether or not it was self defense, you did cause serious injuries to them. [Player PM] Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): Okay so what he did was justified then, right? to Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): Well, from what I saw so far, I do believe so but I'm not fully done with this matter. Is there anything else you'd like to add? [Player PM] Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): Nope. I'm quoting you on this in the future when I do the same thing, though, just incase I get bwoinked. to Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): Alright, that is fine. I may contact you later with more questions. [Player PM] Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): Cool [Player PM] Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): Actually yeah, I have more to add. If he wouldn't have shot me then I wouldn't have attacked him. He didn't give me a chance to get down before shooting me, mechanic or not. What i'm getting from you is it's not the players responsibility to control the mechanics which is just wrong. [Player PM] Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): I didn't see him say get down as I was walking to the medbay. [Player PM] Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): He said get down and I said something and got shot. [Player PM] Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): It's the PLAYERS repsonsibility to control the mechanics of their guns when they are able to. [Player PM] Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): If not, I'll just aim at people and if they get shot I'll reply with 'Mechanics man.' [Player PM] Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): Because that's pretty much what you are saying. to Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): I may have explained my point in an incorrect way. What I'm trying to say is that, mechanics or not, had a gun aimed at you, and you decided to move. Furthermore, I don't believe they were at fault of anything. It was reported that you broke down a wall, when security went to investigate, you went to medical. They tried to non-lethaly subdue you but as you can see, it did not really work out. With what I've seen and read, I still do not believe they did anything wrong. You are of course free to bring this up to another person considering I'm still on my trial. [Player PM] Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): Alright. I'll just follow procedure and post an admin report. [Player PM] Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): Because I disagree. to Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): That's fine, do you need anything else? [Player PM] Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): No. to Printer16/(Emmanuel Nickolson)(?): Alright, have a pleasent day. This spoiler includes a transcript between myself and Arrow16, the HoS in question of this round. to Arrow768/(Paul Jonson)(?): Hey there, I have a few questions that I'd appreciate if you'd be able to answer. So, my first question is why was the assistant being chased to medical? [Coder PM] Arrow768/(Paul Jonson)(?): He was spotted breaking down a wall. Then when asked to stop he did not comply [Coder PM] Arrow768/(Paul Jonson)(?): He just continued running down the hallway. So when we cought him in medical I aimed the energy pistol at him and ordered him down on the floor. He then started to fight us. to Arrow768/(Paul Jonson)(?): And how severely were you injured in fight by medical? [Coder PM] Arrow768/(Paul Jonson)(?): I am still in surgery to Arrow768/(Paul Jonson)(?): Alright, thank you for your time. I apologize if I've disturbed you, just need to check with the facts. [Coder PM] Arrow768/(Paul Jonson)(?): Its not like I am going anywhere until the CMO is finished to Arrow768/(Paul Jonson)(?): Have a pleasent round. So, to summarize all this. You were chased by security and told to stop since it's been reported you broke down a wall, you end in medical, the HoS aims an energy pistol on stun mode and tells you to drop on the ground, you remain non-compliant and move with a firearm aimed at you, so the HoS fires at you in order to take you down which results in a confrontation between yourself and by the end of the fight, the entire security force and the Captain. During this fight, the security team has tried to downgrade the methods of your capture as far as just trying to grab you to handcuff you yet you continued to retaliate, you continually asked for them to stop but when they did, you still fought tooth and nail, resulting in you succumbing to your wounds at the end and the security team with the commander in particular, severely wounded. You mentioned how you wanted to have some roleplay in medical but need to understand that what happened was in fact roleplay, the fact it didn't go according to your plan or wishes, doesn't nullify the fact it was still roleplay. My judgement and opinion on this matter remains the same.
Ron Posted January 8, 2017 Author Posted January 8, 2017 You are missing the point of this complaint. I do not care what happened after he fired, I care about when he fired when he shouldn't have. Your entire last paragraph is pointless to the discussion at hand. Just to clarify that. "Just from these logs and the fact they were chasing prior, indicates that their intent was visible along with the fact they provided you with verbal orders. The HoS in question, Paul Johnson aimed a weapon at you which meant that when you decided to move around, regardless of the fact he was using an aim mechanic, meant that you weren't being cooperative nor even responsive, this in my opinion was more than enough reason for them to non-lethally detain you." I didn't see him say stop the first time. He said it once while moving, that isn't that good of an order. I wasn't being hostile or aggressive towards him and he decided to shoot me. Yes, he decided to. Not the aiming mechanic, he did. If he shot, he did it. I was about to drop down then I got shot and decided that he clearly wasn't interested in what I was doing. Also, no, I moved ONE tile in medical and got shot right as he aimed at me. You are wrong about that as well.
Arrow768 Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 I was playing the HoS this round. I do not see the point in your complaint. You were cought in a active crime scene. You immediately fled the scene and informed were to stop at the earliest convenience. Yes, I didnt have a hailer, but being chased by two security officers and being told to stop should be enough of a indication that you are wanted for something. And usually stop if you are innocent and have not done anything. You decided to continue to run, despite the clear attempts to capture you. We apprehended you in medbay. Since you have shown the clear intention to run away when the chance presents itself, I used my sidearm in stun mode with the ingame aiming mechanic to prevent you from running away further and ordered you to lay down on the floor. You then decided to ignore the big red message presented to you in the chat and instead of dropping down on the floor as ordered you went ahead and moved. If you choose to ignore the consequences of a gun being aimed at you, noone but yourself is to blame for that.
Garnascus Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 You are missing the point of this complaint. I do not care what happened after he fired, I care about when he fired when he shouldn't have. Your entire last paragraph is pointless to the discussion at hand. Just to clarify that. "Just from these logs and the fact they were chasing prior, indicates that their intent was visible along with the fact they provided you with verbal orders. The HoS in question, Paul Johnson aimed a weapon at you which meant that when you decided to move around, regardless of the fact he was using an aim mechanic, meant that you weren't being cooperative nor even responsive, this in my opinion was more than enough reason for them to non-lethally detain you." I didn't see him say stop the first time. He said it once while moving, that isn't that good of an order. I wasn't being hostile or aggressive towards him and he decided to shoot me. Yes, he decided to. Not the aiming mechanic, he did. If he shot, he did it. I was about to drop down then I got shot and decided that he clearly wasn't interested in what I was doing. Also, no, I moved ONE tile in medical and got shot right as he aimed at me. You are wrong about that as well. What you need to understand here is differing points of view and the fact that action IS roleplay. The situation from security's point of view was a hulk capable of smashing girders and fleeing from the scene after clear evidence shows they ordered you to stop. You where aimed at with a taser and YOU chose to violate it. That is literally how the mechanic works and how we operate as far as administration is concerned. Sure from your point of view you may be "non hostile" but from security's point of view you are a potential threat disobeying orders. they moved to apprehend you with non-lethals as is appropriate. I do not find Aboshehab's actions and judgement here at all an issue.
Ron Posted January 8, 2017 Author Posted January 8, 2017 Security didn't see me smash girders or walls, they didn't know I did that. I don't know how someone who is going to medical for a clear medical emergency is a threat, but if you say it is, and that it justifies a use of force then so be it.
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