[Resolved] Cirukcaller's very poor IC response to an antag situation as a CE

[ajstorey456]

BYOND Key: ajstorey456

Game ID: bRq-dHc4

Player Byond Key: Cirukcaller

Staff involved: TheDocOct

Reason for complaint: The round is a cult round, and I'm cult warden! Yippee, anyone who comes to my brig is getting an interrogation and a free cult branding on their left cheek. I've converted two people this way (slow so far) and then the CE comes into my brig talking about how he was assaulted. >"Well, ok, I'm gonna need an official statement on record, come with me." Typical shit. It's going well, the recorder wasn't there but luckily I had a piece of paper and a pen on me to right down the report. So I tell the guy, a search is in order, both on him and the guy in question, as per routine. He goes with it, I have him stripped naked with his hands against the wall and his face turned at the wall, like how I had with the other prisoners. "Now, when I say move, and only when I say move, take a step back from the wall and stretch your arms out, looking up at the ceiling." For the other two I converted, I used the time they took to process that to scribe a convert rune on the ground before telling them to move. The first two complied, because they had no reason not to. This guy though immediately turned around and said something along the lines of "that won't work. You could have done this better." Ok.jpg, I guess I'll just drag you onto the rune and click it instead. He's writhing in pain, like he should be, though not clicking yes. Instead, while having his mental and physical fortitude ripped apart by the Dark Geometer himself, he decides to scream bloody murder into his headset that the Warden is Killing him here and everyone should be there now immediately. Breaching Pain and Fear RP, I have to accept the fact that not removing his headset carried this risk, and tried to reason through comms that he's having some kind of mental break. Of course it's not working, the Captain is ordering for my immediate arrest. A wrestle breaks out because the HERO manages to overcome indomitable pain to disarm intent grab table me (and what luck he had first trying it compared to my 17 tries to disarm). The fight breaks into the hallway, where the Cultist Officer tases him into submission and I cuff him. The Captain arrives, there's some discussion, I'm telling the Captain that this guy's nuts, he's telling her that the Warden is a bloodthirsty, brainwashing Cultist. Because metagaming and all.

Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? Yes, but Doc must have been busy or something and wouldn't take full attention to the issue.

Approximate Date/Time: 11/13/17, about 8:30-9:00 EST.

I've got screenshots, too! A whole album can be found here: https://imgur.com/a/o1zc5 Bonus commentary included.

It's laughable that a head of staff whitelister would act so unfun, powergamey and metagamey all at once, whilst resembling the typical MRP greytider in character and word choice.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Guest

[ReadThisNamePlz]

Hey, I play captain Young. I did order his immediate arrest, or atleast to get eyes on the Warden since the CE was yelling that he was being murdered by him. Then I arrived on scene, and basically realized what was happening OOCly, so, I took a moment to see how I could not make the round extended by having a cultist arrested right away, so I decided to take his side of the story, he had me convinced ICly, and kinda OOCly, but then I heard the CE's side and it was a giant mess. So I ordered CSI to do an investigation, now while this was happening, the CE was yelling about "cultists" and such, there was no previous evidence on the station that had been discovered of any kind of cult, at least not to my knowledge. None of the cult chat was used in common, no runes were really found till late game, it just continued to feel like an extended round honestly. So I don't see how you can get "CULTISTS!" out of a odd blood drawing on the floor, hell I could have been like "Oh man, someone just needs a psych evaluation." based off of the evidence that was already there aboard the station.

[ajstorey456]

Obligatory 24 hour bump

[Catnip]

Hi, I'll be grabbing this later today, a post will be made once the logs and such have been screened.

[Cirukcaller]

Alright, lets go about this- first of all, my character didn't have "pink hair." I'm not sure why you're saying that, as if in some way or form its going to help your case. Or if its some throwback to some sort of reference in the past that I'm not aware of. Either way, it makes no sense- my character's hair was chestnut at the time, as is the hair color of the character in question.

When my character said that you could "do this much better" he wasn't mentioning the rune at all. He said you could've done "this much better" because the process of him reporting a crime was you completely and systematically removing every single piece of clothing they have, until much like you mentioned, they had their hands up against a wall and were completely naked from head to toe. To boot- you claim that "Fear and Pain" RP were completely out the window, but you're failing to mention how this entire attempt at you cultifying my character was utterly a method for you to cultivate powergaming, rather than truly induce anything related to fear, or anything of the sort. Once the admins look at the logs, they'll witness just about how fearful you were, as you wrote down the rune on the floor and pulled my character into it wordlessly. And I'd like to mention, there was 'pain' RP, not that it was fomented by him whatsoever- it was completely one-sided, for it is unlike what he said, this too will the logs prove. The moment he started torturing my character on the rune, through the subvert method, my character rather than scream for help instead began crying and writhing in pain. The Warden didn't have me held against my character's will either- I stood there, and took the convertion for a good 15 seconds of absolute agony while screaming their lungs out before finally, on the verge of death, screaming for help.

After screaming for help, my character didn't just signify there was a cult - this too the logs will be on my side for - he first anointed the Warden as the sole nefarious member of this entire endeavor. He said the Warden tried to kill him, but after the Warden mentioned that my character was indeed going mad, I refered to the several eldritch messages sent from the rune as you're being force-coverted, and started spouting indeed some lunatic things out. The Warden's player was upset, and immediately jumped to conclusions in LOOC about how I was 'metagaming'. This of course upset me- it made a RP experience I was enjoying now an OOC issue, and that's just no fun. So rather than continue doing my antediluvian references and dark RP motivations I chose to separate myself from this person that was turning my LOOC into a blanket of teal upsetness. I had a d/c while this was happening, but luckily I rejoined 5 minutes later to the same situation where the blood on the rune and other CSI-related pin-pointers eventually backed my character's story the Captain was very doubtful to believe. And rather than help their still standing case, the Warden just ran away without a word- without an emote, with nothing to their name and immediately engaged in a gunfight with security.

You've slandered me with a flimsy case at best; you've even called my character a pink-haired character solely for the sake of discrediting me and give foundation to this pale case you've put up against me. You're a really rude dude and I'm sorry your ass is blasted due to your haphazard attempt at RPing gone wrong.

[ajstorey456]

Once the admins look at the logs, they'll witness just about how fearful you were, as you wrote down the rune on the floor and pulled my character into it wordlessly.

I have the pictures from the chat. There were many, many words. You had agreed to the search, agreed to remain compliant, and had your hands to the wall and face away. You decided to turn around and look at me, and that's when I put my gimmick out the window, because you erratically turned around, said "furrows his brow and looks at the rune" "You know man, you could have done this a lot better."

 

-

After asking you to take the step again, you continued to not do that, so I said "Too bad, come here." Those were words. And, if you decide not to comply with my non aggressive conversion, I'm going to aggressively convert you, in a locked room where nobody but the AI could see and I can grab you onto a rune and incite magic. What was I supposed to do, say "oh sorry," remove the rune, and send you on your way?

 

And I'd like to mention, there was 'pain' RP, not that it was fomented by him whatsoever- it was completely one-sided, for it is unlike what he said, this too will the logs prove. The moment he started torturing my character on the rune, through the subvert method, my character rather than scream for help instead began crying and writhing in pain. The Warden didn't have me held against my character's will either- I stood there, and took the convertion for a good 15 seconds of absolute agony while screaming their lungs out before finally, on the verge of death, screaming for help.

I'm no expert on pain and human psychology, but feeling pain equivalent to that of a red hot fire poker going through one ear to the other whilst a literal god is twisting your mind to attempt to bring you to bend to his will doesn't make you think well enough to scream coherently for help, multiple times. Also, screaming one big message like "AI THE WARDEN IS FUCKING KILLING ME" instead of "AI!" "FUCKING HELL!" "THE WARDEN IS KILLING ME!" is super shitty, and you know you did it so I couldn't stop you from speaking any more to stifle your resistance. You also, on the "verge of death" as you called it, then brought yourself to your feet, ran away from me, and fought me as if a trained martial artist on steroids. People in pain that can be related to as "close to death" don't do that, typically.

After screaming for help, my character didn't just signify there was a cult - this too the logs will be on my side for - he first anointed the Warden as the sole nefarious member of this entire endeavor. He said the Warden tried to kill him, but after the Warden mentioned that my character was indeed going mad, I refered to the several eldritch messages sent from the rune as you're being force-coverted, and started spouting indeed some lunatic things out. The Warden's player was upset, and immediately jumped to conclusions in LOOC about how I was 'metagaming'.

-

Did you notice I took screenshots?

This of course upset me- it made a RP experience I was enjoying now an OOC issue, and that's just no fun. So rather than continue doing my antediluvian references and dark RP motivations I chose to separate myself from this person that was turning my LOOC into a blanket of teal upsetness. I had a d/c while this was happening, but luckily I rejoined 5 minutes later to the same situation where the blood on the rune and other CSI-related pin-pointers eventually backed my character's story the Captain was very doubtful to believe. And rather than help their still standing case, the Warden just ran away without a word- without an emote, with nothing to their name and immediately engaged in a gunfight with security.

The "RP" experience is yelling "HELP!" in your comms, then repeatedly telling the Captain I was bad mans. That's not a super shiny RP experience to flaunt around. The LOOC was from Tyler White, and I joined in because I thought he was goofing and was trying to lighten the mood OOC, but you decided to hop in and be genuinely rude to me and White. I wasn't being upset in LOOC, in fact once you started crying at the Officer, I said enough, told you enough, and quit.

I didn't screenshot after your cult cryout, because after that, you DC'd, and things weren't relevant, but wordlessly ran? She attempted to place me under arrest, so I said "Well, you see here..." and then ran. It was supposed to be somewhat goofy, but rather than allow myself to be arrested with the FT's evidence (who was a cultist, I fully expected them to botch it, but alas), I ran down the hall. I stopped, because my character's by no means an athlete, and tried to get them to go away by pointing a lethal energy pistol at them. When it of course didn't work, I acted like a cornered animal and started shooting for my life. I knew full well I wouldn't win the fight and didn't intend to, so I didn't, and I was captured.

 

You've slandered me with a flimsy case at best; you've even called my character a pink-haired character solely for the sake of discrediting me and give foundation to this pale case you've put up against me. You're a really rude dude and I'm sorry your ass is blasted due to your haphazard attempt at RPing gone wrong.

 

You disregarded the logs I had readily available and decided to talk out of your ass to try and cover yourself up. You acted in a real unpleasant way about an antag situation because you'd rather win then lose and make trouble for the cultists.

[Edit: snipped some unnecessary namecalling.]

Edited November 15, 2017 by Guest

[Faris]

You, as a Head of Staff whitelister, responded to a situation in a similar manner to a pink-hair or a baldie, so I compared you to one. You disregarded the logs I had readily available and decided to talk out of your ass to try and cover yourself up. You were being a total shithead about an antag situation because you'd rather win then lose and make trouble for the cultists.

 

Do not use ad hominem. This means do not attack a person's character (character in this case meaning the mental and moral qualities distinctive to an individual). You are expected to argue the presented ideas, not the person. If someone were to attack you, don’t take matters into your own hands, report it to us.

 

No flame wars. No trolling. Self-explanatory.

[ajstorey456]

Right, I got a bit carried away. Apologies.

[Edit]: fixed, retitling post as well.

[Cirukcaller]

You've completely misrepresented me here. You've also avoided several portions of the chats where your own systematically self-destructing behavior in LOOC is shown. I emoted noticing the rune because I couldn't possibly ignore it, but my character voicing your decision in how to handle the entire affair was his only chance to particularly complain about the method you chose to handle it all by making him go naked, move around, lean against the wall, pat him away, and eventually leave him in his undies in the interrogation room, something he was wholeheartedly against.

You've clearly shaped this entire situation to back-up whatever reasoning you think would truly funnel this idea you have that for some reason my character acted in any shape or form outside the ordinary. The AI was the only hope my character had to ever get out of that situation alive, and its asinine for you to claim that I didn't RP fear, or pain whatsoever when in your own screenshots you debunk this fact.

 

 

 

You haven't just misrepresented me in this entire endeavor, again, you also made things look better for you by claiming that my character was a pink-haired character and due to such, much to the pre-defined behavioral patterns we judge 'bald' people by, you tried to sway this entire ordeal against me regardless of facts. And you're sorely mistaken- you tried to force-convert my character without a shred of RP outside of "too bad," as you pulled him over the rune. You did a haphazard search that broke all regulations, my uninformed CE told you so, and after saying "too bad" you just pulled him onto the rune and expected him to stay there and take it. Just because. Well, I'm afraid that didn't happen.

I'd also like to point out that I dragged out my cries for help on comms in purpose, with shows of pain and other tid bits because it made sense- a powergamer would've been a lot more to the point than me and wouldn't have even bothered to cry in pain, to writhe around, and disdain themselves in any way possible.

[ajstorey456]

My friendo, guy, man, what was the entire cavity search? The one that you went through with until you OOCly realized that it was a conversion attempt and decided that, just then, your character would not go along with it? That was a whole bunch of leading up to convert, but you decided it wouldn't happen that way, so it happened a different way. As for the pink hair, it was a joke. Nobody thinks you actually have pink hair.

And what exactly do you have in defense, other than attacking what I said about you, you know, the things I'm complaining about? Would you like to address the calling me out as a cultist, without prior knowledge of a cult? Would you like to address calling for help while in the process of conversion, an immensely painful ritual in which your mind is being tormented by a blood good? Would you like to own up to your character's chuckle-esque LRP behavior when met with an antag?

I'd also like to see these facts. I have screenshots showing what you did throughout the entire situation I'm complaining about. And as I said, the LOOC was bant. I was goofing with the Captain and the Officer, and you decided to take it with a grain of salt and use it as some kind of reason to omit your previous behavior.

[Cirukcaller]

Wow, you really enjoy hinging your entire argumentative in your askew and inaccurate perspective, and by the way you phrase it, its as if we're supposed to believe it solely because that's the way you understood how things went down. I've said it before - I don't judge people's RP, but I find it laughable that you'd call me a 'Light RPer' solely because of my character's reaction to your outlandish attempts at processing them. You're even a hypocrite as well, since you just said "Yeah, well," when you wrongfully assumed that I meant about the rune, rather than your awful understanding of protocol. Look at yourself in a mirror, my guy, friendo, man dude.

What's even worse, you presume that I'm supposed to do anything other than 'attack' - which is to say, to respond - to the things you're accusing me of. That's how this works- you make a complaint, I argue against the complaint. I'm not, however, in any shape or form supposed to argue against your own self-centered ideas of what my character was, and who I am, that you're completely and utterly fabricating and mis-representing me with, when they're untrue. All I have to say is that, that they are untrue and that never once did I ever show any behavioral pattern towards LRP, or any form of shameful, OOC-related dilemmas. What happened here, in my opinion, is a lot more simple than that. I mean, you've already insulted me and referred to me as a 'baldie', when never did I make any attempt at making this personal, or degrading to you as a person.

You lost. Just like you proved in-game that you're leaning more towards LOOC and powergaming, when things ceased to be going your way you immediately jumped to LOOC, when things ceased to be going your way in game - and the admin you reported me to after LOOC failed you decided no rule was breached, no issue was tackled, and no mistake was made - you decided to take your fight to the forums, for more of that OOC boxing ring, simply because you can't handle something as little as failing to properly develop a situation that, yes, could've gone a lot better if you had put a bit more work into it. Instead of your shotgun reply, as things began to escalate in a way that didn't favour you ICly, where your character just blurted out: "But, you know. Business. C'mere. Ready?" No emotes- nothing, absolutely nothing. And before you even decided to catalogue your screenshots, emotes and other personal affairs were mostly one-sided from my part- you just wrote lackluster emotes showing your true lack of care from even getting me immersed, and instead treated my character as another of the bunch. There was no uniqueness, there was nothing of the sort- you just said "too bad," and pulled my character into the rune, as if that was supposed to be the way it goes.

And I find it laughable that you'd say LOOC was just you goofing with the Captain- if there was any shred of honesty I'd expect from you, it died with that comment. One of the very first, and I'm afraid to say "the very first" because I'm not 100% on this, was you calling me out on supposedly metagaming because I said you were a cult. The texts in the conversion ritual literally told me about the cult. If you had ever been forcibly converted, it'll spill out messages about dark images, robed people, a demon- a malignant congregation, things of the sort. It doesn't take much time- and I didn't jump to that conclusion very quickly either, it was long into the interrogation and being utterly told my character was in the wrong that he eventually came to the conclusion of it. And it was only really a conclusion because another officer there helped you tase me. My character was so paranoid - and I know for a fact that logs can back me up on this - that he was even assuming that the CSI that saved him in the case by gathering the evidence was most likely a part of that same cult- that all of security had been swallowed by this evil deity. You have a responsibility as an antagonist to make things enjoyable to players. You didn't make things enjoyable to me- you felt like a rushed powergamer who immediately cried in LOOC when he was inconvenienced the slightest.

Look how jokingly, and goofy you were complaining in LOOC that you went and made a forum complaint that same day.

[ajstorey456]

The admin I told midround told me to make this complaint.

This is just gonna be back as forth "I'm right you're wrong" so I'm gonna save some energy. I said what I needed to say and posted my screenshots so I'm gonna wait until Catnip gives his idea.

[tbear13]

As a witness to this, and a fellow cultist this round, I can confirm that Ciruks IC response was metagamey (accusing anyone not taking his side of being a cultist) and seemed to lack proper pain RP.

[Cirukcaller]

The admin I told midround told me to make this complaint.

This is just gonna be back as forth "I'm right you're wrong" so I'm gonna save some energy. I said what I needed to say and posted my screenshots so I'm gonna wait until Catnip gives his idea.

 

Yeah, that's fairly normal- I was advised the same when a character of mine was lasered by an HoS upon committing mild battery upon another character. Doesn't mean I did, I can see when a matter is IC and when another is just petty pursuits against a player for not getting my way.

I'll concur though, not much else to do but wait for an admin.

 

As a witness to this, and a fellow cultist this round, I can confirm that Ciruks IC response was metagamey (accusing anyone not taking his side of being a cultist) and seemed to lack proper pain RP.

 

Could you tell us who you were, at least? Like, the character involved in this affair- were you a fellow cultist, namely the security officer who helped the Warden subdue me after his failed attempt at conversion, or somebody who was witness to my cries to help on the radio, rather than there, as part of the security team?

And I'd like to point out you claiming that I accused anyone of not taking my side of being a cultist isn't a fair nor accurate conclusion at all. The Captain didn't take my character's side at first, for a very long time, and never once did he presume she was a cultist. My character assumed that security, upon being witness to such a completely moment of insanity - being tortured and left naked in the interrogation room, to be torn asunder as he was for such extended period of time, that he presumed that such thing could only be possible if all of security was in on it. At no time did my character say the Captain, who was head-first involved in this affair, was a cultist. In fact, he was one to grovel at her and victimize himself for her a good 20 minutes straight for the sake of her giving him her favour, so he wouldn't be branded a strict lunatic.

[ajstorey456]

He was Tyler White, the officer that helped my case, who was also a Cultist. Nobody claimed you called the Captain a cultist, you just called everyone else a cultist (accurately, I might add.)

[Catnip]

First off, apologies for the late response here.

When you're being converted, some messages pop up along with chanting;

Once you're at the point of conversion, that person is going to be traumatized if they make it out alive, and, is definitely able to make some safe assumptions that you're trying to brainwash him.

However, I find it a little hard to believe it when you say this, considering the IC reaction to the rune:

When my character said that you could "do this much better" he wasn't mentioning the rune at all. He said you could've done "this much better" because the process of him reporting a crime was you completely and systematically removing every single piece of clothing they have, until much like you mentioned, they had their hands up against a wall and were completely naked from head to toe.

ADMIN: Ajstorey456/(Garry Lent) created a convert rune at the Security - Brig - 120-166-4.

SAY: Ajstorey456/(Garry Lent) : (Ceti Basic) Now, move.

EMOTE: Norman Galloway/Cirukcaller : Norman Galloway furrows his brows.

EMOTE: Norman Galloway/Cirukcaller : Norman Galloway stares down at the rune.

EMOTE: Garry Lent/Ajstorey456 : Garry Lent also looks at the rune.

EMOTE: Garry Lent/Ajstorey456 : Garry Lent looks back at him.

SAY: Ajstorey456/(Garry Lent) : (Ceti Basic) ...The step, please.

SAY: Cirukcaller/(Norman Galloway) : (Ceti Basic) Okay, listen man.

SAY: Cirukcaller/(Norman Galloway) : (Ceti Basic) You could've done this a million times better.

 

It seems like something clicked here and you might've slipped past OOC knowledge, [mention]Cirukcaller[/mention]. I'll wait for a response from you to clarify further on this if possible, but, it looks like a warning is in order.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

This brings me to the LOOC bants side of things. Note that this was before ahelping, and was not included in the screenshots provided:

OOC: (LOCAL) Garry Lent/Ajstorey456 : misclick

OOC: (LOCAL) Garry Lent/Ajstorey456 : void please

OOC: (LOCAL) Tyler White/Tbear13 : *captain ignores the only witness*

OOC: (LOCAL) Kylie Young/ReadThisNamePlz : give me a moment

OOC: (LOCAL) Garry Lent/Ajstorey456 : captain belives the guy saying he hears voices

OOC: (LOCAL) Garry Lent/Ajstorey456 : im memeing.

bRq-dHc4 OOC: (LOCAL) Norman Galloway/Cirukcaller : can we not make this an LOOC thing

OOC: (LOCAL) Kylie Young/ReadThisNamePlz : dont worry about it

OOC: (LOCAL) Kylie Young/ReadThisNamePlz : so shush

OOC: (LOCAL) Garry Lent/Ajstorey456 : im just gooding around

OOC: (LOCAL) Tyler White/Tbear13 : and thats some metagame rite there

OOC: (LOCAL) Kylie Young/ReadThisNamePlz : im pretty sure tha was meta

OOC: (LOCAL) Tyler White/Tbear13 : not on the level of BSA though, but still really not allowed.

OOC: (LOCAL) Norman Galloway/Cirukcaller : have you ever seen the messages then you're being forcibly converted?

OOC: (LOCAL) Norman Galloway/Cirukcaller : Its not meta- it makes complete sense

OOC: (LOCAL) Garry Lent/Ajstorey456 : its meta my man.

OOC: (LOCAL) Tyler White/Tbear13 : No, but you wouldn't go from "voices" to "ur all cult!" honestly.

OOC: (LOCAL) Norman Galloway/Cirukcaller : Ah, not really, not when the Warden decides to write down a rune on the floor and then a drawing on the floor starts cutting you apart while a voice from seemingly nowhere tries to torture you into submission

OOC: (LOCAL) Bigby Farkas/CrimsonAerospace : What would you describe having words and images of death and mayham being forced into your head after someone drew a blood rune under you?

OOC: (LOCAL) Norman Galloway/Cirukcaller : But you decided to make this an LOOC thing, so now I have to explain myself

OOC: (LOCAL) Norman Galloway/Cirukcaller : Its petty to jump the gun OOCly on every little thing but here I am playing your game dawg

OOC: (LOCAL) Garry Lent/Ajstorey456 : galloway, enough looc

OOC: (LOCAL) Tyler White/Tbear13 : there was some metagame there, but whatevs.

"Don't be a dick. We're all here to have fun, not fight and argue with assholes. Don't ruin the game for everyone else, and use common sense. This includes anything from attacking other people, starting arguments over nothing, etcetera. Note that this rule applies primarily to OOC, LOOC, AHELP, and DEADSAY."

While their comments weren't inherently dickish, a warning is being placed on Ajstorey for this, since issues with LOOC have become a recurring issue.

I'll wait for Cirukcaller's response before closing this up. Thanks for the patience in waiting for a reply from me.

[Cirukcaller]

It seems like something clicked here and you might've slipped past OOC knowledge, @Cirukcaller. I'll wait for a response from you to clarify further on this if possible, but, it looks like a warning is in order.

I'll wait for Cirukcaller's response before closing this up. Thanks for the patience in waiting for a reply from Cirukcaller

 

Well, the best thing I can say in this endeavor is that I never intended for my words or anything I said in the game to feel like metagame. Again, when my character sought to scold the Warden for the way he handled the processing it was a message I had even kept on my Ctrl + Copy and Paste ready to be unleashed after I didn't feel like I had to emote or anything else to continue complying. If you feel like in any way or form I defied the immersion of the moment, even I personally don't feel I did, I'll gladly take the warning- one can't possibly always be right, and next time I'll try and take a different measure to how I go about it if I'm ever presented with a situation like that again. I'm sorry for all the attributed mess of it all as well, I'll try my best to be more compelling in the future.

[Catnip]

In that case, it is more of a communication error and not on the lines of a rule break. Hopefully future encounters will be more compelling, but, no further administrative action is required on this.

Archiving.