Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 Security relies on many things to detain someone, not just flashes. The power of flashing has been significantly redistributed to suit another purpose, to set up for easier CQC or to disorient someone from being able to really do a well-executed resistance effort, without immediately deciding the conflict due to a stun mechanic being involved. the stun is not that long that you are helpless
Kaed Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 Security relies on many things to detain someone, not just flashes. The power of flashing has been significantly redistributed to suit another purpose, to set up for easier CQC or to disorient someone from being able to really do a well-executed resistance effort, without immediately deciding the conflict due to a stun mechanic being involved. the stun is not that long that you are helpless jackboot what are you even talking about. it's more than long enough to cuff you and is easily spammable on repeat. And the fact that security is relying so heavily on flashes to get anything done is a sign itself of power issues. They have all these other tools but they only use the one that instant stuns anyone without sunglasses because it's easiest and requires little effort. I also think the mechanics of cuffd are also kind of cancer as they are designed right now which has resulted in them being grossly overused for every little thing just in case, but that's not a subject for this thread.
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 ok, so why dont we also remove the stuns from pepperspray since that will be used if flashes are gone? Why not stunsticks? Why not tasers? flashes are popular because they work. they are quick and safe and you dont have to beat someone's legs in to get them to stand still. not having a flash is like trying to arrest someone in a hardsuit - you have to just sigh and grab something else in your belt that will probably give them a trip to medical.
Doc Posted May 8, 2018 Posted May 8, 2018 flashes are popular because they work. they are quick and safe and you dont have to beat someone's legs in to get them to stand still. not having a flash is like trying to arrest someone in a hardsuit - you have to just sigh and grab something else in your belt that will probably give them a trip to medical. Essentially, this. You know what this will accomplish? Security will stop using flashes. I'm willing to place a rather large gentlewoman's bet that that is the sole result of this change going through, theoretically. Instead, you'll see a whole lot more of security immediately whipping out the baton and stunning someone over the smallest thing, because it's the next item in the scale of escalation that they know will work. Security works on a scale of escalation, sure, but god knows most reasonable officers won't purposefully start at "possibly or likely ineffective." This is essentially already proven in the existence of, but near zero use of, pepper-spray. It's generally unused because it falls under this "possibly or likely ineffective" category, based on a wide variety of circumstances, to which the flash is nearly always directly superior thanks to it's broader range of use and instant stun capabilities. This will just drop the flash into this same region, and it will only ever be used in niche situations, with the baton becoming the new security go-to.
Kaed Posted May 8, 2018 Posted May 8, 2018 You know what this will accomplish? Security will stop using flashes. I'm willing to place a rather large gentlewoman's bet that that is the sole result of this change going through, theoretically. Instead, you'll see a whole lot more of security immediately whipping out the baton and stunning someone over the smallest thing, because it's the next item in the scale of escalation that they know will work. Security works on a scale of escalation, sure, but god knows most reasonable officers won't purposefully start at "possibly or likely ineffective." This is essentially already proven in the existence of, but near zero use of, pepper-spray. It's generally unused because it falls under this "possibly or likely ineffective" category, based on a wide variety of circumstances, to which the flash is nearly always directly superior thanks to it's broader range of use and instant stun capabilities. This will just drop the flash into this same region, and it will only ever be used in niche situations, with the baton becoming the new security go-to. And yet, I don't find myself particularly minding this. What exactly is the problem of people using batons? They usually require several hits to down someone, and unless you're being a total ass on harm intent they don't deal any physical damage to you either. I'm willing to bet the people are going to use flashes more than you think, too. Especially since it's not only utilized by security it is a common self-defense measure throughout the station.
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted May 8, 2018 Posted May 8, 2018 You know what this will accomplish? Security will stop using flashes. I'm willing to place a rather large gentlewoman's bet that that is the sole result of this change going through, theoretically. Instead, you'll see a whole lot more of security immediately whipping out the baton and stunning someone over the smallest thing, because it's the next item in the scale of escalation that they know will work. Security works on a scale of escalation, sure, but god knows most reasonable officers won't purposefully start at "possibly or likely ineffective." This is essentially already proven in the existence of, but near zero use of, pepper-spray. It's generally unused because it falls under this "possibly or likely ineffective" category, based on a wide variety of circumstances, to which the flash is nearly always directly superior thanks to it's broader range of use and instant stun capabilities. This will just drop the flash into this same region, and it will only ever be used in niche situations, with the baton becoming the new security go-to. And yet, I don't find myself particularly minding this. What exactly is the problem of people using batons? They usually require several hits to down someone, and unless you're being a total ass on harm intent they don't deal any physical damage to you either. I'm willing to bet the people are going to use flashes more than you think, too. Especially since it's not only utilized by security it is a common self-defense measure throughout the station. play security on a strict baton-only run for a week then get back to me
Bauser Posted May 8, 2018 Posted May 8, 2018 Getting security to pull out the batons sooner would be good for instigating security/crew roleplay conflict. Since it's a greater use of force (when the flash and pepperspray are still technically viable options), it makes people question more harshly whether it is necessary in a given incident. Besides, if you're an officer, and someone runs when you flash them, that gives you all the justification you need to pull out the batons/tasers. So nerfing flashes in this way doesn't cripple the officer's ability to effect an arrest - it just adds an intermediate step allowing the other guy to choose how to react. And if they decide not to comply, the officer can escalate.
Scheveningen Posted May 8, 2018 Author Posted May 8, 2018 The purpose of this change is for officers to more seriously escalate in the minor situations, yes, Doc, you are correct. The point of the flash being changed in this way is to facilitate a different way of getting results out of using force. The flash was changed, or rather, all flash sources have been changed, to blind up to 7 seconds without flash protection. Being blind for 7 seconds is no joke. While it doesn't make it impossible to defend against future attacks by an officer, it can be pretty difficult to fend off an officer while you're blinded. In a manner of speaking, here's a situation you can make the flash useful: Activate flash in hand in a crowd, beeline to suspect, grab them and reinforce grab, push them down as they're ineffectively walking into a wall. Alternatively you could've peppersprayed them, or batonned them, tased them, etc. While it annoyed the hell out of a crowd, you neutralized the possibility the crowd will intervene or do anything stupid within a 7 second time period. You can do various other things with a flash in tandem with your other equipment, provided the person in particular has no flash protection. The flash stops being an effortless stun measure by itself and becomes a set-up tool instead, to make the higher methods of escalation easier. In a manner of speaking, brainlet security have always been escalating to batonning people down anyway due to a compensation thing. Smart security are going to use the flash in addition to any other means of force to more easily take someone down that doesn't have sunglasses on. The only thing that really changes is the ability to still react in-between being flashed and whatever the officer chooses to escalate with next. Contrast with how flashes are currently and you're locked down by hard crowd control for 10 seconds, which is also easily spammable and chained easily to the point where the odds of who's going to win a confrontation is heavily in the hands of the security officer. Now that this low-effort stunlock is posited to being removed (aside from a few nuance cases such as IPCs, and diona, who need the weakness, whereas Vaurca have the unfortunate biological disadvantage by default), anyone who owns a flash is required to think and act differently. Like, really, I'm sure heads of staff will enjoy being able to use the flash and run the other direction while Commie fink-tattle-tale-telling on the person attacking them, to security. Sunglasses will still remain a hard counter to being flashed.
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