[Resolved] Staff complaint on ReadThisNamePlz

BYOND Key: Itanimulli

Staff BYOND Key: ReadThisNamePlz

Game ID: bTM-aYlP

Evidence/logs/etc:

https://pastebin.com/WbBJ1H6W

Because I totally told a lie. I totally deserved to die for stealing an item. Your warning makes it seem like I didn't get killed and then ahelp about improper escalation/valid-hunting. Gonna add more and more to this when I'm not tired.

Warning in question:

Attempted to lie to me about being killed by the CE, claimed they never damaged them, though they attacked them multiple times with a screw driver and other items, as well as a ton of disarms.

Because disarms cause pain?

Because I said that I was 100% sure that I didn't hit anyone?

Because escalation just works as a mod sees fit at the time?

Pretty sure I was attacked with a fireaxe, and died to it.

Pretty sure the CE did it.

This is the type of behavior I'd expect from like a 20 year drunk admin with an ooc grudge against the player base, not someone trying to prove themselves worthy of being on the staff team.

Additional remarks: Show me the first red-text between Kardora and another individual. Then show me the rest of all the individual fighting between her and someone else. It will help my case.

Chief Engineer involved. The situation was laid out in detail to the mod handling the complaint at which point my actions were greenlit.

Antagonist stands right in front of me spawning in traitor gear. Assuming its just a new and not yet competent player I ignore it. Later on when my hardsuit is stolen, I use the camera on it to track the suit and guide them to it and the antagonist who stole it. Unfortunately they happen to be wearing the hardsuit and spamming the leg actuator function to escape stuns, as well as being impervious to cuffing, so they are absolutely overwhelming the single lone security officer on the shift, whose weapons are completely dried out and still no luck. Seeing this, I initially just stand in front of the thief and push them back to the officer. We begin to disarm each other. After a while of this, I grab a tool nearby in maint and hit them in the leg with it trying to knock them over for Sec to grab ahold of them (they're wearing a hardsuit so this does absolutely nothing). Meanwhile, they're using whatever tools they have to stab me as well.

I back off for a short bit, and then I once again find the thief at the atmos maintenance door. Considering they've made a habit of hacking into restricted areas already, including my office (and at the time I also believed them to have brokein into the Captain's Office and stolen the Spare ID though this turned out not to be the case as another traitor eventually emerged) I secure the fire axe, and continue to follow the thief through maintenance. As I'm following them, they (with the hardsuit) start trying to vent the area (and me) to space, which is decidedly lethal, so I try to incapacitate them. Faced with either that, or allowing OP to break through and space me (as well as letting a thief disappear with the advanced hardsuit, and at the time believed to have all access) it seemed like a much preferable option. I hit them a couple of swings at a time, stopping and backing off repeatedly to let them speak or possible even surrender, but each time they either continue coming at me to try and fight or get away. At this point, whenever I managed to knock them down, I also immediately stopped conflict and tried to get them somewhere where they could be nonlethally contained, but they instantly jumped back up and continued to attack. Finally at one point I had them downed long enough to put them into a locker, but they presumably succumbed when they realized they were done.

Its unfortunate circumstances to be sure but the entire response was me, and the single lone security officer that was on at the time, and he was obviously overwhelmed by the situation and eventually stopped responding to it at all. As chief engineer it was a higher priority to me to prevent a rogue engineer from disappearing with my hardsuit (with RCD) and at the time the access they were thought to have stolen. OP made themselves impervious to stunning or any form of restraint via their hardsuit, and continued to be violent and resistant to capture no matter what or how many times they could have stopped to talk.

If you actually tried to tell the mod that the situation was "i stole the hardsuit and got axed to death", that's a pretty bold faced lie. When the incident started we stood there and tried to talk to you and you just silently ran. In fact you blatantly took advantage of us trying to talk to you because you just pulled us out of the way and ran up the ladder without a fight. Every time we passively tried to stop you you fought or ran, and when we started physically trying to stop you, because you were using the hardsuit specifically to prevent nonlethal means of capture, you just continued nonstop to fight us, culminating in you trying to vent me and getting the axe used on you for it.

After taking you to the nearest security officer i could find, you were immediately cloned and allowed to do whatever it was you wandered around doing for the rest of the shift.

I will be handling this complaint.

This is the type of behavior I'd expect from like a 20 year drunk admin with an ooc grudge against the player base, not someone trying to prove themselves worthy of being on the staff team.

This comment isn't really putting the complaint in positive light here.

Edited title. Please don’t be stupid or jokey with complaint titles.

Apologies for the title, was extremely "done" last night.

Anyhow:

Chief Engineer involved. The situation was laid out in detail to the mod handling the complaint at which point my actions were greenlit.

Antagonist stands right in front of me spawning in traitor gear. Assuming its just a new and not yet competent player I ignore it. Later on when my hardsuit is stolen, I use the camera on it to track the suit and guide them to it and the antagonist who stole it. Unfortunately they happen to be wearing the hardsuit and spamming the leg actuator function to escape stuns, as well as being impervious to cuffing, so they are absolutely overwhelming the single lone security officer on the shift, whose weapons are completely dried out and still no luck. Seeing this, I initially just stand in front of the thief and push them back to the officer. We begin to disarm each other. After a while of this, I grab a tool nearby in maint and hit them in the leg with it trying to knock them over for Sec to grab ahold of them (they're wearing a hardsuit so this does absolutely nothing). Meanwhile, they're using whatever tools they have to stab me as well.

I back off for a short bit, and then I once again find the thief at the atmos maintenance door. Considering they've made a habit of hacking into restricted areas already, including my office (and at the time I also believed them to have brokein into the Captain's Office and stolen the Spare ID though this turned out not to be the case as another traitor eventually emerged) I secure the fire axe, and continue to follow the thief through maintenance. As I'm following them, they (with the hardsuit) start trying to vent the area (and me) to space, which is decidedly lethal, so I try to incapacitate them. Faced with either that, or allowing OP to break through and space me (as well as letting a thief disappear with the advanced hardsuit, and at the time believed to have all access) it seemed like a much preferable option. I hit them a couple of swings at a time, stopping and backing off repeatedly to let them speak or possible even surrender, but each time they either continue coming at me to try and fight or get away. At this point, whenever I managed to knock them down, I also immediately stopped conflict and tried to get them somewhere where they could be nonlethally contained, but they instantly jumped back up and continued to attack. Finally at one point I had them downed long enough to put them into a locker, but they presumably succumbed when they realized they were done.

Its unfortunate circumstances to be sure but the entire response was me, and the single lone security officer that was on at the time, and he was obviously overwhelmed by the situation and eventually stopped responding to it at all. As chief engineer it was a higher priority to me to prevent a rogue engineer from disappearing with my hardsuit (with RCD) and at the time the access they were thought to have stolen. OP made themselves impervious to stunning or any form of restraint via their hardsuit, and continued to be violent and resistant to capture no matter what or how many times they could have stopped to talk.

If you actually tried to tell the mod that the situation was "i stole the hardsuit and got axed to death", that's a pretty bold faced lie. When the incident started we stood there and tried to talk to you and you just silently ran. In fact you blatantly took advantage of us trying to talk to you because you just pulled us out of the way and ran up the ladder without a fight. Every time we passively tried to stop you you fought or ran, and when we started physically trying to stop you, because you were using the hardsuit specifically to prevent nonlethal means of capture, you just continued nonstop to fight us, culminating in you trying to vent me and getting the axe used on you for it.

After taking you to the nearest security officer i could find, you were immediately cloned and allowed to do whatever it was you wandered around doing for the rest of the shift.

No. I did not try to vent you in the slightest. Didn't even have the tools to do so. A wire-cutter and a screwdriver are not the type of things to use. You also had the ax when I went into maintenance nearest to security, wich was before I was near anything that could be used to vent you. Also, when you and the crowbar at the beginning, I wasn't wearing the hardsuit. Could have done plenty at that moment. That was the first interaction we had. Second, I'm not good at talking to multiple people at once, and I've seldom had to ahelp a situation besides getting stripped and locked in a locker while SSD.

I never got anyone talking. No one spoke over the intercoms. No one said anything to me. I just know that there were progressively more items being used against me, and I nearly went into paincrit (and did, several times) throughout the duration of this little exchange.

You also have a very odd OOC attitude, almost hostile to a degree, to any sort of criticism of your CE. Not even by me, but by other players. Including both of the other notable CEs. You respond to questions about the way your CE acts with "Well don't play cargo," with an expletive here or there.

So yes, I TL;DR'd pretty hard, giving the START and END of the scenario. Still not a lie. I stole the hardsuit, and then eventually was indeed axed to death. The salt was present, because I did not expect to indeed be axed to death.

Here's the point of this, anyhow, because for all my issues with Munk, I can live with them.

I don't appreciate that someone asks for an absolute, gets a clear response that basically states "I am not sure, but this is what I think happened," and then proceeds to say "Don't lie," closes the ahelp without giving the person who ahelped the time to react, and then writes out another ahelp saying that I basically just boldfaced fibbed about a situation. No, I did not. I said I did not damage the CE, because when examining the CE's body, it didn't reveal that they were harmed. All it revealed were bloodstained boots. The warning also makes it seem like I DIDN'T emphasize the fact that I tried to spend the whole time disarming.

Thus saying "I didn't damage them" is a valid wording.

Also, I TOLD RTNP I dissarmspammed, so why is that in the warning!?

I told RTNP I didn't harm the sec officer, simply because I didn't think I did.

I told RTNP my side of the story. I'd wish for RTNP not to contort it into something that it isn't.

Alright so my response to this is this:

I was planning to dismiss this with no punishment on either side until I reviewed the logs.

They told me that "I never damaged anyone". While they may have believed this it was not the truth, logs showed that they attacked the CE multiple times with a screwdriver, wire cutters and an extinguisher.

They were warned because they insisted they they did not attack anyone, and (from my perspective) believed they had done nothing wrong.

The CE even attempted to get the antagonist into a locker to get them to medical, I saw this part happen, they ended up succumbing to their wounds however.

I took the "I never damaged anyone" as a lie, and asked him two or three times to see if he'd tell me it was a lie or not.

[mention]Garnascus[/mention] Was here for it as well after I issued my warning, maybe he can give some feedback.

I had a look at the logs out of curiosity, though I will note that I'm not handling this so the verdict falls on [mention]DatBerry[/mention].

First I want to reiterate that the following really rubs me the wrong way.

This is the type of behavior I'd expect from like a 20 year drunk admin with an ooc grudge against the player base, not someone trying to prove themselves worthy of being on the staff team.

This is an opinion that really holds no substance here with a definite lack of proof on any grudge and is quite rude to a person willing to devout time for the community as a volunteer. This is clear cut ad hominem and I will be issuing you a warning over it on the forums.

Moving on. The fight seemed escalated properly. Shoving, pushes, attacks and the CE believed you were using lethal measures on them. When you acquire the tools that can lethally incapacitate people either directly or indirectly, you need to understand that when you allude to the fact you're about to use said tools and they believe you are, they are going to escalate, which they did. Checking the time stamps also gives me the impression they didn't just spam click you.

Another major point is your actual ahelp.

[07:27:43] bTM-aYlP ADMIN: HELP: Itanimulli/(): I am dead - heard by 3 non-AFK admins.

This really tells us nothing and is honestly just a waste of both your time and our time. You adminhelped it, you should spend the time properly outlining the issue instead of us grasping straws to try and figure out what exactly the problem is, which you brought to us. Alright, you died, is it because you died too fast? Were you ganked? Did you die by accident? Perhaps you're joking? Did someone double cross you? Oh, could it be that you're trapped somewhere and are in the process of dying? Perhaps you made a mistake and you will die? We don't know, you never explained it to us. I might've personally asked you to ahelp again properly and closed the ticket.

Another point is that it is your responsibility to properly outline things that have occurred. A lack of injuries does not mean a lack of attempts. You failed to properly outline everything that occurred, which twisted things into a way that Munks was in the wrong here. You are responsible for what you present to us and what you don't. We deal with what we see and is said to us. Logs, witness testimonies, observation, intent, history and a few other things all help determine a verdict. Based on what you told the trial in response to your report, it does give me the impression that you intentionally hid information. This is no different to us questioning someone for a wrong doing and them hiding facts and lying to us.

It does not matter if you report things to us are or are reported. It is your responsibility to outline everything properly. Your failure to do so is your responsibility. You could have easily scrolled up and looked at how the fight went. Your original testimony was short and brief, stating that you simply stole the CE hardsuit so you got axed to death for it.

All I have to say in response to this is that I'm not exactly the best at ahelping anything. Whenever i do so, it's usually in a very mild way, because I'm still for the most part uncomfortable with them. I never know when to do it.

As for the 'ad hominem,' I'll remove it. I was thoroughly pissed off with the whole situation. A warning feels like a slap in the face, and it's not really helped me in terms of my cautiousness in making ahelps. Case in point, I get a warning because I apparently didn't word everything up to par.

This complaint boils down to two points

• The CE ganking you with the fireaxe, improper escalation
  
• RTNP Issuing you a warning for lying
  

Let's start with the CE issue, you claim that after you've stole the CE's personal rig, eluded security and kept causing trouble, along side the fact that he is your boss and he's responsible for you, the fact that they tried to non lethally stun you, smack you with smaller tools had all failed, that them escalating to a lethal weapon is not proper escalation? what did you expect them to do? keep using fruitless tactics that proved useless? they are not NPCs, rounds do not revolve around antags, crew are self thinking and know to escalate treatment, if you keep using your old tricks you're doomed to be caught.

You could argue using a lethal weapon when all you had done was steal a rig to be too much, and that he was not a security member, but you had a screwdriver and a wirecutter, tools to remove a window, and since you had the CE's rig, he was not vacuum proof, you, who resisted all other forms of attack, put his life on danger, and you expect him to just try and flash you, disarm maybe? The CE and lone officer used every technique in the book to try and deal with you, if they couldn't use lethal solutions then, they never would.

You are expected to be given some leeway as an antag, and they did when they did not escalate to lethals right away when you stole a rig that made you immune to stuns and cuffing, crew are not expected to just bend over to any threat that standard gear doesn't deal with

As for the warning, You had given little to no information, as it has been pointed out.

When sending adminhelps, be CLEAR and CONCISE - it makes things a lot easier for us to deal with. Try to include character names if possible.

This is in the rules, clearly worded, and it's enough to net you a warning just on the basis of your first ahelp, though staff are generally lenient and don't punish on such rules.

But when asked for more information, you did not include the whole story, you didn't really include anything at all, the bare minimum when asked.

What it tells the staff: the CE ganked/validhunted me with a fireaxe

Here it draws a picture of you stealing their RIG and them over escalating and smacking you with a fireaxe, hiding the fact that there was a lot of fighting in maintenance.

They did not rampage on you with the fireaxe, their intent wasn't to kill you, there's between 2 seconds to 16 second delays between fire axe hits, and it matches the story munks posts, but nevertheless, an easy to make mistake, a long with forgetting that you did hit them.

Staff should not need to milk every single detail out of you, if you don't give us the whole story from the beginning then you aren't entitled to have your ahelp dealt with when you keep withholding information from us, information critical to actually handle the issue.

You may have forgotten that you hit the CE, but you couldn't have possibly forgot you had so many encounters in maintenance and how many times you've escaped non-lethal take down attempts.

Could RTNP had tried to get more information out of you? they tried, but you still didn't give out any more information. Everything you've done leads me to believe you simply ahelped when you died out of salt, withheld any information that could've justified the CE's killing of you and hoped to get them into OOC trouble, which is disgustingly unsporting, and I hope is not the case.

whatever the case, I will be closing this in 24 hours unless any new points are brought up.

edited: I for some reason wrote kaed instead of munks, huh, really makes you think

i would like to point out as a ghost i was watching the event in question, and its my personal thoughts that the CE went full bore much to fast but i digress. When nifty died RTNP told them in dchat to ahelp over what happened, implying that they knew what was going on prior to the ahelp. As i dont have msay or asay as a observer i dont know what was being said there but seems to me tossing out a warning after accusing a player of lieing and closing a ticket may not be the best moderation choice.

I think this boils down to, instead of saying "Give me a full story of what happened," I was told "Hey ur lying have a good round here's a warning." And then the ticket closed. This is my first time ever ahelping for validhunting, and also my first time doing a staff complaint. Apologies if I came off the wrong way both times, but by issue is with RTNP atm and not Munk, who was the CE.

I think this boils down to, instead of saying "Give me a full story of what happened," I was told "Hey ur lying have a good round here's a warning." And then the ticket closed. This is my first time ever ahelping for validhunting, and also my first time doing a staff complaint. Apologies if I came off the wrong way both times, but by issue is with RTNP atm and not Munk, who was the CE.

So, regarding the "Give me a full story of what happened," I actually did, if you look back at the Ahelp I asked you to elaborate on it twice, the definition of "Elaborate" is "worked out with great care and nicety of detail". I was asking you to give me a full run down of what happened.

Regarding Eabs statement, when I told them to Ahelp it, I was simply telling them to stop complaining in Dsay and to ahelp it, I even PMed them about complaining in Dsay near the beginning of the ahelps.

But, in the future, I'll be crystal clear with this. Thank you

Thank you. This all just feels like it's gone off the rails, with every attempt to make a situation better biting me in the rear and making it way, way worse.

Locking and archiving.