Cassie

Actually, such a dichtomy doesn't exist. I very much enjoy "chair rp", but I am also up for diverse types of RP too. I like extended and sometimes I don't mind doing just extended, I also like different round types. I don't support ganking but I don't like a non-threatening evil villain, SS13 is just a bit like that on this server sometimes. Especially if you're just stepping in, you don't know who the fuck these re-occuring villains (IE: Nuke ops, for example) are, and even if you do your IC character will not, unless they're a target or something. A nuke ops round is often an extended round with bullshit being said over the radio for anyone not involved. I don't personally mind being knocked out of the round with death if the event was well-roleplayed (unlike times where I've had my character thrown in the perma with no RP, or left to die in the shuttle because security somehow overlooked their prisoner gasping for air.) I consider myself a very diverse player, I play characters of all temperaments and types. I don't see how these two things need to be separate all the time, I don't see how action can't be RP'ed, and I don't have a problem with non-action RP taking presidence sometimes. The kind of people who prefer chair RP all the time are those who: 1. Have their own established RP friends who they run off to in the beginning of the round to lock themselves in a room somewhere, doesn't interact with anyone else so they can continue RP'ing about their personal life drama. (Which is fine until it becomes 80% of the playerbase as everyone starts to do this and therefore encourages more cliques to form.) 2. Are playing security roles and therefore possibly see more action than let's say, the average chaplain. Not everyone fits that criteria, and therefore not everyone will be satisfied because not everyone plays sec, and not everyone here knows everyone. That creates a problem. I don't have a lot of interest in security and head roles (used to play them a lot back in the day) but I really like civillian roles, which tend to be hit by this kind of problem the most. I don't know what the old players were like. I don't know what the new players are like. I don't know what Bay13 is like, and until I do I'm not entirely sure if the thing you mentioned is good or bad. I recognize a name or two from hypatia, but tbh I never knew them well to be honest. Hypatia had a legion of old members who were assholes, they were rude, entitled, they felt the mattered over anyone else and tried to hold that over the heads of the admins to choose them over new RP'ers (who were also often pretty good, if not better), their RP was detailed and experienced, but they honestly were the "old, controlling conservative grandparents who fear the new generation" type of the group and the atmosphere lightened up after they went. Not only just that, nearly every single one of them RP'ed assholes. I understand 'asshole' is a personality, because heck, even I've played one or two, but if assholes are all of your characters you've got to sit down and wonder, "Hey, am I an asshole? Am I even RP'ing?" Sadly, the ones in administration who stayed at the ones who brought it down and they left too late. HK, being one of them. The funny thing about her is that her /me emotes were very detailed and her flavourtext was good, but her character was the goddess of mary sues. So this depends on context, seriously. Yeah Hypatia had a similar problem of this too. I like lore, in moderation. It's there to add consistency to RP and a bit of spice to bring RP interactions off on. If it becomes like a giant history book and overly detailed, I'll switch off. I work, I come here to play, not study. Okay, here's what I think loads of lore. It's boring. If only the lore team mostly likes the lore, then maybe that kind of proves my point. Secondly, I don't see the problem with a 'space American', in fact, I couldn't care less about custom countries (they'd have to be terribly interesting to catch someone's attention), in fact I'd find it more interesting if earth colonies (*either in space, or still on a radically changed earth) existed and the lore recaps what the climate of the popularly used countries is, what they are called now and the culture of said countries. Because I only think people RP characters from countries because there's usually a set dialect, ethnicity, culture and customs associated with said countries. But actually the lore thing is only my personal opinion really.

Tenenza, here's the thing. Yes, players could be more friendly to each other. Here's the thing, there's within administration and development who have this problem too, there's people who aren't reading this problem or shrug and don't think it's them who are part of this too. And so on. What this topic is actually implying is that: 1. The cliques and favouritism need to be broken up by the actual managers of the community because that's their job. A structure of an RP server isn't just to have an admin to ban griefers and deal with rule breakers and some people to add lore and sprites, you need RP managers as well. 1a) An example of how this can be done is admins minimize the amount of exclusive events (events that mostly only involve people in the security and heads sector, and maybe just 1-2 people on the side) and start making events that include most of the station. Events don't need to include violence that causes death. For example, the prison event run a few weeks ago was really good because it helped a lot of people get to know each other. It was a tiny bit clusterfuckish, some people stuck in their regular groups, but it somewhat forced people to interact with each other. From there, it had OOC benefits because people then began to interact more with the people they saw in said events. Running on extended is fine sometimes especially for in-betweens, but admins on occasion (more frequently) should try to get a creative person on their team to have this done (which I am aware this is in the process of doing). 1b) I've always considered making a "Who did I meet today" topic, an interesting topic talking about the people you come across in SS13, maybe a spin-off of "Humans of New York" thing. I usually aim to interact with 2-5 new people in depth per day, I even keep logs of stuff that happens so I can memorize personalities and such. I want you to sit down and consider this: Who is reddit populated by? Where do all these redditors who have played Aurora come from? Secondly, what is your reason for dismissal for a significant portion of a very varied playerbase that just happens to also use this social media website to communicate. What's next? "You want Tumblr to like us?", "You want facebook to like us?". Are all these reddits misplaced LRP'ers, or griefers and people who simply want to rouse you up for no good reason? Because if that's you think it's a very defensive way of being in denial - imagining your entire opposition as incompetent and stupid non-RP'ing baldies to dismiss their opinion. Because for note, there's a handful top notch RP'ers I know that have critiqued your server on there, I recognize them from servers I've been on. Just so you get perspective here, some are actually the same and sometimes better at playing than people we've got here (who I actually think here, are pretty decent RP'ers most of the time) because they've been RP'ing for years. Which is what is actually the irony at kicking down at reddit is counter productive. They've been weary of other HRP servers that have fucked up terribly like Hypatia and BestRP, some of the anger may have transferred from that - but their complaints are often legit, so there's that. Also, people here aren't mentioning reddit because they want to asskiss reddit, they're mentioning reddit because the problem is so obvious and wide-spread it is even being discussed on reddit. Cliques and Favortism, yeah, those are problems, but like, half the people who have posted in this thread are in them. You see, if I were a mod/admin of any server, I'd be more concerned at my server having cliques (which are basically the slow, cold seppuku of any RP environment) than "Hah, some of these people are in a clique, so this isn't an issue to be sorted out by me!" You know, I agree with you on that you don't need to have this dealt with during the round, not sure if anyone on topic actually mentioned that. Anyway, since nobody else is mentioning this, I'm going to take the liberty of saying it: 22 year old doctors and snowflakes in huge quantities on a server is a sign of a systematic issue. When people creates one of these, it's for a purpose. Like one or more of the following: 1. To become noticed and make their character feel special so they will be liked, and more situations revolving RP will happen to them. 2. 20-something works more for romances, but people need to add more skillsets to them, for reason 1. So they can attain said romance. 3. Because it's a self-insert of their actual self and they don't realize the skillset should match their character. 1 & 2 specially are caused by existing problems mostly, and can be reduced. Sue, I ask you to look at Hypatia. Look at their forums. Look in the general topics specifically, you'll see a few threads there. Then jump into their server and observe, I want you to see how shit their general product of RP is. What happened? Hypatia used to be the best RP server on the hub. Hypatia's administration was like yourself Sue, and Hypatia had the exact same problems as Aurora, they didn't bend for no one and they had a oldie playerbase that was on their side. They didn't really care about alienating the new members and doing nothing about it, or allowing the old to tramp over the incoming. You know what happened? Their old players got caught up with life and work, they left. Admins left. Mods left. Lore and dev team left. They have a huge ton of new people now, these new people don't know how to RP (and don't care about the state of RP on the server as a result so they stay) and the players that knew how to RP that were new don't want to touch the server with a barge pole because of their experiences there. Secondly, you've got to use your head. I kind of get that this server doesn't like braindead killing due to the permadeath situation, but why don't you think smart enough for your mind to work like this: "Right, so they're asking if they can allow griefers to be arrested, and for braindeads to be killed." "I don't think we should allow that, but it might be a sign that the antag and security roles are a bit dead and we need to jazz them up." "Perhaps we can run a fun event thing tomorrow, give a traitor a custom objective for them to RP out. We could also have someone RP something for security to chase over. Heck, let's even give something to the science, civilian, and mining department next week." Secondly, I don't think people meant "Let the griefer run free", they meant "Let the griefer provide a source of action (obviously keeping in mind admins will prevent deaths) until they are in the brig cell." but obviously even this wouldn't be needed if the above example in the previous paragraph I mentioned was done. Tell me Susan, is the opinion of a lorewriter or the people who are playing under the lore carry more substance? Be honest here. Secondly, enough hyperbole with the arrest thing. I personally don't mind being arrested, I just find it weird how the procedures of how people get arrested can be sometimes. So just immersion on its own without mechanics that ensure someone has a good time? http://secondlife.com/ Lastly, don't let me bring your character as an example into this Susan. You wouldn't want me to.

That's ridiculous. Are you the tone police? So you're attacking the author of the message and how they present it and that is an excuse for ignoring such complaints? (Well, I can definitely say Sue does) Yes, being nice is kind, but I don't honestly think they have to! Especially if they actually haven't experienced it from the server. A lot of them didn't wake up in the morning growling "RAR I WANT TO ATE AURORA", they encountered something where they feel they were wronged, and because until now those complaints have been brushed aside or denied it has grown into a bigger problem; where lots of people have gotten angry and are able to actually relate to the same problem with each other and see none of them have seen a resolution or even an acknowledgement to said valid problem. Instead of blaming them (the secondary problem) for the problem why don't we just fix the root problem instead? I think it's the other way around. The LRP complainers are in the minority yet are purposely amplified by people who can't take valid criticism so they can feel better about themselves in the situation they are in. The LRP people are definitely there because I have been lurking reddit (and made an account today as well) and I can say, yes, that does happen. But in all honesty on the same note I can say that the HRP complainers are often against said people, not only that, they get dismissed a lot by HRP admins - and that, leads to more hostility.

So you believe everyone who has complained has simply copied and pasted off reddit and does not have valid opinions of their own based on the very things they have witnessed? Because that's what you're implying. Because otherwise complaints that keep mirroring each other, and that within your own admin team and player base keep complaining and leaving over the same thing. Because I know if I go onto a restaurant review online the best way to determine if someone's bad review is a lie or just an occasional mess-up is to check how often that particular thing has been complained about.

He's not actually attacking any of you personally, he's addressing a systematic issue where he used your actions as an example. Anyway, to be constructive I do recommend more people who are in denial of this problem to do the same thing that Hartburry did and maybe join under a new ckey no one knows about and play a new character. Perhaps then you'll have a deeper insight of where things can go wrong and resolve a few issues that the server has. Denial has never fixed any problems, the fact that this current complaint shows up quite often is a sign that perhaps maybe you shouldn't attack Hartburry and focus on the better issue to address here. In a roleplay environment, if something isn't working out, you have to intervene and fix it. For example, yes, old frequenters can be very cold and standoffish, nevermind being bald or new to RP - you can be a fully customed character who knows how to emote well and still get shunned/treated badly. For example, I'm the kind to dip my toe into the pool. I've had instances, with five different characters mind you, where people have straight up walked past me in hallways, you've directly talked to someone but they walk past you, etc. Security has a habit of being stressed and overwhelmed, when in reality they make their job harder by being very aggressive and using more force than is necessary. Security officers; keep in mind, they're not the police, and are actually employed to not only protect and uphold regulations, but to also diffuse situations and prevent them from happening. In some cases the offenses are so minor all you'd have to do is report the misdeed to a head so the head + the HOP can manage it. If more officers did this, they'd be less on their plate if they didn't bite off more they can chew with excessive force or domination. I really do get that you guys do have non-rp'ers griefing you sometimes, but I see this happening to RP'ing prisoners too. From there it becomes a power struggle and then you'd have to battle out the wits - that's tiring as fuck. Police brutality and prison toward people who aren't known or liked is ridiculous. Some of the stuff I've witnessed IC'ly happening to me and other is actually shocking because you come to realize, "Hey, this isn't just IC roleplay, this person is venting their OOC anger and prejudice at me.". In that sense, you start to build a bit of OOC resentment for the people who play on the server - which is bad. Yes, I am kind of rude, but jesus I have to admit I get a bit annoyed with how things are. Keep in mind any offenses my character does are non-griefy and don't result in any harm to other characters, ie, (verbal fights, taking a drink outside the bar, smoking in medbay). The joke is that, for example, if someone is taking alcoholic beverages out of the bar, they don't need to be arrested. In real life they wouldn't be arrested unless it was hooliganism and they were drunk, in that case they'd be put aside shortly in a cell until they sober up and given a warning. I could change my character to be more cooperative with security, but that's not very realistic. I don't think I should change, security should change tbh. My character is very easily managed, you could say, "Hey, could you kindly put out that cigarette, we have patients who are sensitive to cigarette ash.", and she'd be like, "Okay, fiiiiine.", and put it out. But when a special snowflake hyper-aggressive security comes in and says, "PUT DOWN THAT CIGARETTE. NOW." (which is a terrible way to roleplay security and whoever does this should feel bad), and she's going to be like, "You coming at me like that? Who do you think you are?" Because that's how people of her temperament in real life would react to being talked like that by a security guard, who are usually polite irl. And then it becomes an amusing little verbal IC tiff until I realize it has escalated to the point where my character has been flashed/maced, usually 98% of the time not initiating any physical contact repeatedly and chucked into the shutter.

That's totally what stopped every world war ever.

If you want to go to that deep end, then do it. As a lore master I think you should consider the following: 1. A vast majority of security officers (yes, they're not police) break Conflict Management protocols which would actually be obligatory for a sec member on a high-profile space station, and this is never mentioned, ever. Go on everyone, put your security character on that test, see if they pass. I understand people break the rules sometimes, but I've never seen anyone actually follow this. If I roleplay this when I play sec, everyone can. 2. I know this originates to bay13, but considering the above. How many Unathi officers would be fired? 3. Due to being covered in copious amounts of fur that can not be tied back, can Tajaran work in the kitchen? Their fur presents a physical hazard under most health and safety laws. Could this apply to adult Diona as well? 4. NT (as an establishment that has facilities that serves food) has a lot of mice. Under health and safety laws, an establishment shouldn't have that much mice if they have a kitchen and bar. They'd be shut down. 5. I break this rule and get away with it because it is fun. You see, bartenders shouldn't be able to choose what concentration of alcohol should be in the drinks unless it's a cocktail - it's actually illegal and you may be fined. It should be set, amirite? Tedious, who cares? Realism wins! (I've studied Hospitality, and it is showing.) 6. So Tajaran have only being discovered for 24 years? Unathi have only been discover for 23 years? Is that really enough time for humans to get used to them? Let alone start marrying and bonking them? (Or even the newly discovered races to each other?) They're an entire different species, think this through - would they honestly be leadership roles? It's taken hundreds of years for humans to accept those of different sexuality, races, genders, and disabilities so from a sociological perspective this seems rather fast, actually too fast. Forget about Vit, you'd have a lot more bigots on station. 7. Surgeons, don't get me started on surgeons. What surgeon is happy to not do surgery without anesthesia? OH GEEBUS WHAT SURGEON REMOVES BODY PARTS WITHOUT THEIR PATIENT'S PERMISSION? Who wears contaminated clothing they've been wearing all day to operate? What surgeon lets their patient get off the operating table right after surgery? Why is no one using the post-surgery room? I've seen all happen on Aurora. 8. The term, 'baldie'. You'd have to excuse-lore this somehow. What is the 'baldie', why do people discriminate? Why are their incarceration rates higher? Yes this is a heavy RP server, but with most heavy RP servers you've had an 'elephant in the room' on certain things. Since you already have cut corners on "Heavy RP", people are genuinely wondering why you're beating so hard down on IPCs when you actually don't need to. HRP should be realistic, but reaching hyper-realism ruins all the fun. You know this.

The shun this topic is getting is real. They're not even hiding the shun. I'd suspect that the IPCs are NT or corporation owned and are sent to work on space stations across the galaxy.

Vicky is a really good character, interacts very openly and has a balanced personality. She's fun to be around, yeah.

Yeah. It depends on how they were programmed. It's actually very flexible and totally up to whoever is writing the lore. This is my take on it. Yes, they were intended to serve humans, but to my knowledge most AIs portrayed in fictional futuristic universes think almost exactly like humans with emotion simulators (Because it's the year 2500+ not the year 2020), and the "laws" were the only safehold to stop them from going "You know what? Humans are tacky. Let's kill them.". I'd imagine transhumanism being in place in the NT universe to liberate them, stop them being trafficked for money, and also stop them from wanting to destroy humans, etc In my imagination I'd imagine IPCs would be a peoples that are slightly apathetic to everything but realize they now need to gain currency like everyone else, and that have said to NT, "We don't want to be lawed. We think of ourselves as human. We're only working because we were built for a role like this and there's nothing else to do." Firstly, that sounds more like a cyborg/robot than an IPC, which is basically a simulated human (people can't tell the difference between a robot, cyborg, android, and so on - as a sci-fi fan it's a bit worrying to watch). Not even bay devs can get it right. Maybe we need an establishment of what an IPC actually comes under? Robot: Basic umbrella term for anything mechanical. In the sci-fi world it means: Completely mechanized form, mind and body. Cyborg: Partially mechanized human, either of mind/brain and/or body. See; partially human. Android: Has a robotic body for a robot. Mostly human in appearance. (Can be made from human parts like a cyborg, but must have a robotic mind) tl;dw: Completely forgetting that biological brains are also programmed and we too, unknowingly follow a pattern of intricate and complex options based on physiology, brain patterns, etc. We react and respond to stimuli and so on. Sometimes you would realize from a non philosophical point of view that humans are also complex computers who follow a set range of behaviors, and so do animals.

This is some reverse psychology right? Now Kane. There's no off button I'm afraid, I'm sorry it has to be this way. I can be nice, heck, I can be lovely if you sit me down with a cup of tea and some biscuits and have a nice chat about how we can discuss roleplay styles, but no, I have an issue right now, I've been dismissed once and I am expressing myself. I come here, I present my raw, unedited opinion on the server which is fully constructive criticism, not an "attack", because honestly, things -could- be better on this server. You come here, make a whine about some conflict you don't even have to be involved in, then add some cheery "love, [yournamehere]" then ask for no one to react negatively to it. It's a laugh - I can't stand wimpy passive aggressive posts like yours. I don't made some If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. All I really get is admins (except for maybe one or two people) being overly defensive and in denial that there's actually a problem. I don't want to see some novice management bs like that. But to be honest, I'm not going to single them out since it's a part of a bigger problem. I'm on the frickin' forums, chatting to people. I'm not griefing the server or DDoS'ing it or anything. And yes, nobody is forcing me to play here. If I truly wanted to attack a server I'd be one of those morons who DDoS ss13 servers to let off steam; but I don't have the interest or time in doing such things. I think that even if I don't continue to play here that perhaps admins could take heed of what issues players might dislike in regards to Aurora. I personally believe it's much better than those people who find one problem then leave instantly without leaving feedback or being invested enough to tell people what is wrong. Even if admins don't agree with my criticism and decided to continue things as they are, that's fine - I'll let them be. As long as perhaps someone else in future might read this topic and think "Ah, so this is how things are. I won't bother making a topic then." and will move on without wasting their time.

For a heavy RP server, I'm not particularly sensing any signs of a glass ceiling in any regards to Tajaran. For example, for a race that has been enslaved for a long time, there's no signs of slave mentality as a group/culture (apart from the lack of individuality in their speech and mannerisms, and occasionally played out the fact they don't rise up to command very often.) Slavery is actually srs business and it damages a culture of a group long after it is over. Post slave syndrome would include: Poverty due to discrimination and profiling. Usually a slave masters group retain a mentality where they dislike seeing a formerly submissive class gain feet or "too much ground" because it would signify change - even if they don't actively dislike the individuals. High/medium criminal rates due to poverty and literacy deprivation based on above reason (on their own home planet). Because of this, you'll have the more culture-conforming people from the group on the bottom of the ranks, and the most comparable to the dominant culture slightly higher. Even if they may dislike their former masters, they will see their master's culture as dominant and better than theirs. Internalized self hatred in regards to culture and self (regardless if aware or not, EG: They might dislike something about their physical appearance or the way they talk because it signifies a slavery class, but not quite sure why.) Those who manage to reach higher positions are more likely to want to assimilate with the dominant culture around them due to over-compensation or they're more likely to be accepted. Conflict between marrying within ones' group due to internalized self hatred, one might see their own group as the stereotypes spread during slavery and will avoid them altogether and might actually prefer marrying the dominant group. (Noooot encouraging interspecies waifus here, just listing a genuine thing.) If you're going to go dig deep into IPCs RP-wise, I think you need to realize how slavery sociologically affects a group of people.

First of all, as a black person, I laugh at the "safe haven" excuse, I deal with racism in some form nearly everyday being on internet communities and in real life - and I don't actually mind a well-RP'ed racism scenario, as long as it's not just "HURR I STAB YOU BECAUSE YOU DIFFERENT" and people actually facilitate realistic situations. It's been over 300 years and today's civil rights are still abysmal - I doubt a space station visiting a few species before slapping them onto a huge corporation ship all together is not going to have a similar effect. I prefer human characters personally though, second choice is Skrell, third choice is IPC, then maybe Unathi - which is why I would like to contribute to this thread because it's not just this server but most RP servers are neglecting the lore of these species. Nearly all RP servers forget this, but I just need to remind everyone: Races: White, Black, Asian, etc Species: Human, Tajaran, Skrell, Unathi, etc So technically the discrimination would technically be speciesism as species denote belonging to the same breeding class (as in, you can create offspring from each other). Personally, I don't know why everyone is downgrading silicons in the SS13 universe and treating them so badly everywhere I go. Generally I love the idea that IPCs/cyborgs are sentient but are discriminated or thought to be. On another RP server I did created an event where my character - Jackson Ripfield (traitor antag - I go deeep with my traitor RP) created the ALM manifesto you can read here: part 1, part 2, and part 3. People are RP'ing/portraying cyborgs and IPCs as "[insert robotic stereotypical personality here]" and have no quirks whatsoever. Haruspex, for example, has my respect for breaking out of that mould, personally. I did once make a catalogue on how cyborg psychology can be different to human psychology, and therefore develop eccentric or different personalities that are believeable for RP. It's completely possible for silicons that were built via human brains, I would imagine psychological issues similar to Glados having brief relapses in personality to Caroline's in Portal 2. Though, I don't see any heavy RP servers being kind to silicon RP any time soon. Skrell produce eggs and don't actually have sex, and IPCs... there's just no (safe) holes in them technically. That's probably why they aren't as popular.

Christmas kept me busy. Let's see. @ForgottenTraveller: This topic isn't really aimed at you, nor is an actual criticism of the players in the round. I prefer to get to the root of the problem than picking at silly things. Rest assured. @Hartburry: I get you but the actual truth is (from a rev leader who could see who was a rev or not) that the intial people you had in the brig were not revs. I still don't see how security still jumped to "revolution" and decided to brig every suspicious people they see. To be honest, it would be such a big deal if they RP'ed with us during the arrest/brigging. If these people committed crimes (well, I don't know their particular crimes to be honest) they likely wouldn't have been thrown in the permabrig if people weren't expecting OOC'ly "Ooooh it's a rev round, therefore every single crime is a rev crime.". But anyway, back on topic, to make this short. My issue was with the fact that security was "play-to-win" that round and despite this being allowed or justified there was no recognition or way for revolutionists to get further than they did. The RP level was abysmal, and apart from the perfectly-formed sentences, the actual actions were comparable to a light-RP server. My character was injured from the permabrig breach, she was in critical condition from suffocation and unconscious yet was placed into the permabrig's prison without any medical treatment with cuffs and buckled into a chair until the round ended - which kept me out of the game from the shuttle calling to arrival - which is a pretty long time with a lot of missed RP. This kind of action is reminiscent of light-RP servers when people *know* for sure you're an game-programmed traitor and want to see you fail your last "escape alive" objective (ironically since this server has none), but you get the picture. This is just an example of how security-player interaction can fail on this server - it's not like I'm some griefer who doesn't RP and isn't contributing anything, people forget to actually RP on an RP server unless it's toward their friends or something. I understand this isn't an Aurora exclusive thing, but some admin awareness and intervention would be very beneficial.

First of all, so everything is clarified, let me list all the crimes I did manage to do as an antag (apart from converting people) before security rushed us: 1. Took shotgun outside of the bar (technically didn't have time to return it as sec did rush us out), never used it. 2. Stole security camera and ID computer circuit boards and weapons charger to give to the engineering protest organizers. 3. Went into engineering + aided in engineering's fortification so we could set up our first protest. Engineering made a sealed area so we could fall back in case security were on us. Was given and willfully held a flash given to her. 4. Resisted arrest by running away. 5. Pushed over an officer while in permabrig. 6. Owning a paralysis pen (never used, got put in permabrig locker but never suspected). Let me stop you right there. Crafter and the assistant, Saylor with her did not re-enter the bar after it was closed down. OOC'ly have no reason to lie about this. Security shoo'ed them out while Camile was on shift and Saylor was there RP'ing with her, and she huffed at them and left. Camile ranted about her bar being taken down and then went on to convert more people, using that as a roleplay reason to get more people on her side - but did not try to reclaim the bar. Saylor was with me most of the entire time, so I can provide an alibi for him, at least. You are correct here. Yes, you have proof of the crime, but you didn't really have proof of mutiny, did you? Going back to my original point, I'm still wondering if security knew there was a mutiny via RP reasons or if one of the revolutionaries actually came forth and said "Viva la revolution" because disobeying or being weird doesn't necessarily mean a revolution. Going onto grand sabotage, I feel it's a little too far-fetched, for one, guilt-by-association isn't really applicable to standing someone misdoing their job compared to murder. Also, engineers may have neglected to do the power, but it did not mean they wouldn't have intended to. Think about it - if we set up computers in engineering to use, would we let the power run out? Also, we never really got to do our protest (which was going to be just literally, a roleplay protest, not a riot) which would have given security things to do. But like a premature ejaculation you guys came in too fast, so... the round just became what it was. We should have just spawned in the brig really. Before then we were just committing crimes, I think only the number of people interracting on the scale would have been a clue, but still, I can't deny the gamemode gave it away to some can't-help-myself peeps. We could have been traitors, cultists or even a hoard of changelings, IC'ly how would you know? No roleplay took place to question our motives. The RP was just really lacking. We were incarcerated and inoffensive as we were cuffed, RP could have taken place. Security: You suspicious. Security: *shoots* You go brig now. Revolutionary Antag: My charges are? Security: Shut the fuck up. Security on radio: Yeah, mutiny. Revolutionary Antag: Mutiny right? Security: Yeah, mutiny. Revolutionary Antag: Yes I broke into that place and stole stuff. But uh, who were we mutining against anyway? Heck, we could have been having a gang war. Security: Go into perma and think about what you've done baldie. Camile willingly gave up her shotgun early in the round after her bar was shut down. Her backpack with her shotgun shells was left in her backpack in the bar also. So withdraw the shotgun, for correction. Camile's weapon, which thankfully went under the radar was a paralysis pen, which never got used during the arrest because she got arrested by a cyborg. Please let me know where an assistant can go (other than tool storage) and a bartender with no bar is supposed to run to. Not really, like, a villain can actually roleplay a hostage situation where they threaten to kill a kidnapped officer if the other officers don't let their friends go, or any other more realistic situation like that. I don't see why a well-roleplayed murder scene that isn't just "LOLKILL" isn't allowed, especially when you all have thirty minute respawn. Considering for example, that officers can use weapons that can potentially kill (eg: Camile will have a heart-attack and go into crit if she is shot with a taser), it's not really out of bounds to think a villain might retaliate in a hostile or desperate way to a threat. Though, I don't support sudden surprise killing, or hiding bodies where they can't be found with no lead-ups or good reason. Also, I must say that I've seen a traitor round on this server, no objectives. What's a traitor even supposed to do anyway? I can see stealing but uh... like, if you go stealth (which is the only way to avoid being brigged if you don't want to murderbone) and steal something... there's a gameplay reward for this? Imagine this. You're unarmed, you're handcuffed and whenever you try to break free of them and officer chases and stuns you. There's just officers everywhere and they're staring you down like vultures eyeing their prey, your every movement. They drag you to a bed and bedcuff you in that small room in the permabrig. Your comrades try to escape, but they too suffer a similar fate. One of you manages to break free of their cuffs and runs, she pushes over an officer and makes a run for it. Freedom at last! Maybe those airlocks can magically open somehow? Nah jk, security cyborg got her. She's flashed and cuffed again. You stay in that room until the round ends while you talk and use emotional /me commands. The end. I can't believe that attitude. The game isn't just about you, you know? So instead of admitting there's a problem you're going to just hide behind that? The irony is that we never got questioned, not even interrogated, if I wanted to play to get that I should have just joined goon or something. Not sure since I only knew my relative team and everything that happened to Camile, but the only weapons I knew from my party that sec might've caught onto was were: 1. My bartender's shotgun (confiscated early in the round) 2. One flash passed onto me by a comrade. 3. The engineers setting up an emitter in tool storage. I hear only one (unknown to me) person bashed the Captain's head with a tool of some sort. And in the permabrig after everyone was arrested another person punched him, yes. Not sure, it just appeared suddenly (not even progressive like vent pumping), like a n20 canister was opened on full pressure or something. But I didn't see a canister within the range, but thankfully I was in the bedcuff room at the time or I would have gotten knocked out too.

Look Susan, here's the problem. This whole thing is a part of a bigger problem them stems from something I've noticed for ages. Firstly, it just seems how the RP is set up on the server is really out of balance. This might sound really random considering the main topic, but I believe it is related. Like, firstly, I really just don't like the general atmosphere and many core gameplay mechanics based around the rules, and a suggestion topic won't cut it because it seems that admins have each other and their friends (who mostly happen to play sec/heads) and anyone outside that circle doesn't matter. It's not this round in general, it has manifested in many other rounds through similar means. Heck, to me, serious RP about having realistic well rounded characters and their reactions to the universe around them, as well as having detailed me emotes, space drama, and character interactions. But perhaps, for example, what is meant by this server being "serious rp" is having a court system out of the actual shift (because "space station", duh!), devoted so much to the realism that actual gameplay experience suffers. There's literally little to no SS13 charm in the server, which I assume is the purpose? By SS13 charm I don't mean clowns throwing pies and people farting on each other, I mean, actual exciting gameplay - though we might have different ideas on what is. I'm now learning that a server where Centcom loses too much of it's eccentricity is usually like this. I've never seen a single event (apart from revolution) that actually includes civilian-action role-play on this server (and to be honest, this plagues most serious RP servers), which is why I am disappointed it ended this way. But perhaps a lot of you haven't grown out of the fascination of having no non-sec action and a emoting an RP relationship or a non-human character and calling it fun on extended mode for months at a time. I've been RP'ing for years now and I find it boring, maybe that's my problem. I don't see why you can't have both, but either way I can't really rat on more about that. Fair enough, that's your community. But then again, people who defend this usually play as heads/sec/centcom anyway. Not usually on the receiving end. I don't really play those roles much these days, so I witness it or be on the receiving end a lot. All I've had to say on this matter has already been said. I thought I'd speak my mind. That's all.

If you were listening to me, what I'm saying is not that the Centcom report is hardcoded or not - I couldn't care less. The fact is that the current rules (or so called, excuse of a lore to uphold this game mechanic) is allowing that downfall to happen, regardless if the centcom report is hardcoded or not doesn't matter. If the game mechanics don't work with that - change it. You've upped the RP on the revolutionist side, so why not up the RP on the security/centcom side to compliment it in a way that gives both a balanced chance of getting a fair round as well as decent RP. And speaking of hardcoded, let's look at that together: That's rather funny isn't it, considering my actual bar (I'm the bartender, remember) was shut down, and my liaison was an assistant (no duties) - we both got permanent brigged. So, I'm sorry, that does not fly. Oh, and we weren't warned. Even so, it's a ridiculous game mechanic still, it doesn't matter if you wrote it or not, I'm telling you it's dysfunctional. Why would security throw all of us, whom, some being duty-less assistants (excluding engineering) in the permanent brig then? Why was there no RP investigation, no roleplay of an interrogation or an arrest, or perhaps even a scout/informant going undercover if a mutiny was suspected? Could they actually prove we were "off-duty" I can damn well tell that security did not question or investigate anyone. They also specifically arrested everyone in batches, because that's what people on non-rp servers do when they see a huge group acting weird on a rev round. Now, I get that this a security player error, but what I'm saying is that admins tied into this by allowing the permabrig deal + allowing the gamemode to run in that state under the existing rules. It allows this thing to thrive and admins were pretty "meh" about it in LOOC. The convenient part about the "trial at Odin" thing is that there's no way to possibly worm out of the situation RP-wise, innocent or not. That gives security the power to grab huge bunches of people, innocent or not (potentially using meta-knowledge) and get them out of the game with minimal effort, they don't have to scout, prove, or anything. So you see how both the bad players that round and admins inadvertently supported that. Fun fact: I was not confirmed, found, or to my knowledge, even suspected of telling engineering to do anything. I was simply in the room with them. I could have been a follower, a person they brought along, who knows? I don't even know to this point if security identified me as a "leader". Heck, they couldn't even prove I helped them, I was spotted and arrested. But forget me being caught - I can understand being arrested. But I'm honestly surprised how you've left the revolution game mechanics for the sake of "realism" (which is quite a flexible thing) of not having a formal investigation/trial on station. With this, I'm certain security can have any revolution round in their favour if they can pull the trigger on a group of people. Let me tell you about security, they were jumpy as fuck. You could tell, obviously OOC'ly the players were damn itching to get an arrest. Hovering near basically everyone. I don't even care about the hardcoding shit. After all, we revs didn't play to win - I personally enjoyed rp'ing with my comrades, but security didn't even try to roleplay with the people they caught. In fact, one moment from cuffing and chaircuffing and bedcuffing to actually flashing for some weird RP-sadism on a person who can't even run away. Get this - players are human too? This is not the first time this had happened, and even admin-liked characters do this. Imagine when you find out the predicament when you realize the revolutionaries are the only ones RP'ing the conflict, I don't really even recall when the officers brought us in to ask "WHAT ARE YOU UP TO?" or "Who are you?", or "Why did you do this?!" but instead you're dragged in (and let's not forget the innocent ones who got brigged and lost a quarter of their game time due to our lovely perma-on-suspicion-because-no-trial lol system). Forget the players playing sec for a second here, it's the admin tolerance and defense of it in-round that irks me. Revolution is an excellent gamemode and has been pulled off wonderfully with serious RP before on different servers. Usually security just stand away and observe until they pick up a whiff, and I personally think a revolution is useless unless you can kill/kidnap heads. You can actually respawn in this game, there's no need for the whole anti-death protection thing, in my opinion. Don't try the "revolution is just bad or you don't understand" because I'm not the only one who was displeased with how things ran. The best part of revolution is figuring who and who isn't a rev, if you can just throw whoever (without even checking if they're actually even breaking these so-called hardcoded Centcom commands) in the permabrig, you might as well start the round and ask everyone to make way to the brig. And yes, my displeasure was both at the admins and the players playing security, though I find the administration's tolerance of the game mechanics being uneven with the borderline prison camp sec was allowed to run was ruining the round. Ironically with all these safeguards to "have a good rp experience", that simply did not happen. If this was a one-off thing, I would have shrugged it off, but it's a server-wide thing and it manifests into problem-wide rounds just like this, and it stems from a mentality. As I've said, I honestly don't know why this server has a control-freak atmosphere about it. Might as well open secondlife and RP there instead if you can't handle SS13 gameplay. Honestly. But whatever, your server.

BYOND Key: cassyjenelle/Camile Crafter Staff BYOND Key: n/a (This is a general issue) Reason for complaint: How the rules operate on revolution rounds, and systematically how many other gamemodes are handled. Evidence/logs/etc: Additional remarks: Some background on the round... Wowwwee. Now, this all started a few minutes ago. We were playing rp-revolution and for note, I was a revolutionary head. Round started normally, we began converting people and getting some numbers. Our bar and other leisure centres was seized (I had no problem with this, since it was supposedly part of the roleplay). From then, I quickly learned that the roleplay revolution had limitations (you have to convince people to join, and even then they may refuse) and was fine with that also, since IC'ly in a roleplay environment this makes sense. I assumed that since the revolution has to start in such an organic way (we're not allowed to do anything too drastic without an admin's permission), the security and heads must also getting limitations and having a organic approach also with how they can react to the revolution (IE: finding out about the revolution from informants/clues, questioning, trials, and investigation) and this would balance out to the two sides. Anyway, the problem started when I got some of the engineers in engineering on board with our cause. The engineers completely remove a few cameras and start making emitters and we make computers, and so on. This is pretty shady stuff, we'd totally get arrested for this if caught - I have no objection to that. Anyway, sec finds our base and immediately arrests everyone (even non-revs) on the scene. Here's where I start having the actual problem: So, we are arrested. Fair enough, brought into the brig and our characters start screaming "What are our charges? What did we do?" to the security officers, like any good revolutionaries should do. We were hoping to utilize the fact that we may be punished for the individual crimes since we're so underpowered (we're technically not allowed to do anything too extreme like bash in a head's head in with a toolbox without a good IC reason and admin permission), or get tried/implanted as revolutionaries in court. Nope. None of that happens. Why? This server just had to be special. The security was already tipped off about the revolution and were allowed to brig anyone who sneezes wrong on Aunt Martha's tea party on a Tuesday. Fantastic eh? A lot of the people arrested weren't even revs, to test the efficiency of this deal. We got perma'ed. Not even tried for the crimes we did or put in the normal brig, nor was an investigation in place of our intents/groups, we were just perma'ed. The best justification for this overpowered game mechanic was this in OOC: CONVENIENT HUH? Basically, the security weren't individually doing anything unjustified since they were following centcom orders. Who controls Centcom? Admins. So yes, that's why I'm not making a direct player topic to the sec, I'm making a general admin topic to challenge this mechanic that you've established here. The roleplaying revolutions (I can only speak for my own squadron, who were well behaved and didn't directly harm security pre-brig) were roleplaying and were not powergaming in the least. I had many opportunities to powergame or win as I am an experienced ss13 player who actually knows how to robust, but I held back simply because I knew that robusting one of these people would mean I'd probably have to kill them. We could have kidnapped them, but then again, the only thing saving these unrobust fucks was the cyborg. I honestly applaud the cyborg for being the only robust-competent sec there, mostly based on the fact it was a borg. But I didn't play this round to robust, I played it to RP. The whole Centcom tip-off completely destroyed the idea of roleplaying between security and revs, security played to win - with the help of this admin permission in the form of a Centcom message which is totally justified under: Oh gee! Thanks. Solves the problem? Wow, why was I even complaining? Everything is perfect! You make "Centcom say it", or maybe you just didn't add it in so it isn't a broken game mechanic considering the nature of RP on the server! Honestly though, if the revolutionaries were not so held back, we would have rumbled the brig a long time ago. Anyway, the round sort of had to end when the permabrig filled up with N20 (I have no idea how) and a meteor hit it. All my revs were knocked out, and our revolution came to screeching halt with no hopes of breaking free. If we weren't placed in the perma in the first place (remember, a lot of innocents were in there) this would not have happened. I have no idea what this "command report" is, but if you're going to have so many roleplay limitations on revolutionaries, was borderline no-trial marshall law (no trial because off-station hue hue sec wins idea). Inevitably, if revolutionaries are not allowed to actually do anything drastic (such as kill heads/security) and can be permabrigged without a trial or any way of eloping custody (even if you've been stealth), how exactly can a revolution round be played. Moving onto the main, official root of the problem... I've noticed that security on this server is terrible. Not necessary in RP, you guys can definitely rock the me emotes when you want to, but rather, you can't organize or fight for your lives. Therefore, admin powers, "nulled"-rp where antags (not necessarily even referring to revolution) can't actually be rough and act like actual antags because god, we might kill someone's RP-relationship or even worse... kill off someone's RP-baby. Security, I honestly don't know why ERT is called nearly every round there's an antag. The villans don't even have to be killing, you actually beat the record of how quickly ERT is called. Sorry to be rude, but If you can even aim a gun in SS13 it's honestly beyond me how that's possible. To be fair, most RP servers have this problem, and they just become boring, stuffy, repressive. I LOVE RP on ss13, but with you (and many other servers) it's just so cliquey and favours only the combat/antag roles (heck, not even antags get the best slice), even if you occasionally scold security for being bad it doesn't mean a thing if the server revolves around them. Like, if there's a red-alert on say, a nuke round, all civillians are expected to stay in their places and do /me emotes until it passes. I get it - they're not combat people stay away from danger. Except, since the antag can't kill anyone or/and has no objectives, there's hardly any danger unless the nuke is set. No one feels the effect of the round unless they're security/antag/ert. It's boring. You've made the unity of a station bland and there's no SS13 magic - you know, you can have serious roleplay AND be action-packed at the same time. Admins continually whine about keeping order, but in reality the only people who tend to enjoy the server are just within that clique I just mentioned. They just seem really inexperienced and make a lot of excuses for themselves. I'm disappointed this was my first antag role here. tl;dr: Most nuke/rev/traitor rounds aren't fun unless you're security. Sec aren't necessarily bad as they're operating within server rules, but server rules are often problem to making the game a fully enjoyable experience.