the_furry

I can't vouch for other players but for travis yes. His background has him alone and friendless most of his life (I created his background weeks ago and posted it btw). So above all things friends are most important to him. He would kill if his friends needed it done.

Neb I understand your thought behind this idea that the sop should be a guideline and it should be left up to the security staff to determine how those guidelines work. But it only works if we have decent officers at the time. The biggest problem with it is it leaves the security staff solely in charge of that decision and if we have bad security staff then it is easily abused. I believe a large part of the complaints that hit security is because they don’t have good values. You put it well in my complaints forums when you said “You give them –criminals- the shortest brig time possible. Perma is strictly for grand-scale crimes (Or griefers). I mean big, evident threats, like a nuke-op. Vault contents can be replaced. Crew integrity, crew loyalty, crew productivity, and company reputation - those cannot be replaced” and if a majority of security officers held this thought then I would agree that it would make this rule change unnecessary. However that is not the case. I’m suggesting the rule change because security does not appear to believe this and instead like as you also put “I'm –security officer- gonna pile up as many charges as I can against you so I have reason to keep you here for as long as possible”. It’s because officers have this mentality that I believe a rule change should be hard implemented to protect the players from security as much as giving security better tools to interact with players.

So first I would like to clear up the non-antag comment. Yes I was not an antag, by Charlie is a close friend and it is something travis would have assisted with. I should have Ahlepd for permission but it was later cleared up that permission would have been granted and none of my actions would have been changed. Secondly whether I am an antag or not should not affect my stubbornness or leniency thereof, if it changes situations and you apply harsher rules to non antags because they shouldn’t be antaging then that is meta. (I couldn’t tell if that is what you meant from the comment, if it is not then disregard) Being a head of security I can understand why you would think it sounds reasonable but it is extremely upsetting to me in particular when all I enjoy doing is telesciene and it is shut down (randomly in my eyes) because you don’t trust RnD. Now I rarely abuse telescience the way I did last night. I don’t know what other people do with telescience, whenever I’m on I seem to be the only one that uses telescience. So this dangerous department thing I can’t speculate but I am not convinced many people complain about telescience. Hell before I discovered it I never saw anyone really use it. So I did feel like it was a bit meta that once I got on station you closed it down. I want to find a solution that we are both happy with. However, From your interactions with other crew and your demeanor plus the bad rep security has, I am convinced that had confessed I would be in perma anyways. And based on what a lot of people here are saying it’s agreed that you are too strict on the punishments you place. including the punishment on my character last night considering all the circumstances. Ned puts the view security should have perfectly. When she says “You give them the shortest brig time possible. Perma is strictly for grand-scale crimes (Or griefers). I mean big, evident threats, like a nuke-op. Vault contents can be replaced. Crew integrity, crew loyalty, crew productivity, and company reputation - those cannot be replaced.” If that is the value that you had had then I would have been released or with a minimal sentence and allowed to go back to working for the company until my actions can be reviewed in centcom later.

Oh, I don't know about that then. I didn't read the post fully. I saw Charlie mentioned and saw the OOC chatter before the server went down, I just assumed it was after we brigged Charlie for her treasonous actions. My mistake. edit: Additionally I just noticed this was a round from like a million hours ago. Disregard anything I say. tina your the best, the main post was about last night, my comment on telescience being shut down was when I got on today immidatly telescince was shut down.

Lord whether you think we should trust American psychologists or not I don’t care. If you don’t think we should follow my suggestion please point out the flaws in the tactics I suggest. You have given no input into what it is about my suggestion about how It will not be an improvement other than (you think it wont work). Well think does cut it, I have provided support and referenced examples as to how my idea will work (and can reference more if you like) so please, if you can, address how my suggestion would not be an improvement. What is it about it that will make it not work. Anyways I am also making an added edit to the OP I would like to expand this by adding one more safe guard. I think it should be included that in order to receive the 75% off of your sentence you must also accept a tracking implant so that you may be monitored and may be found if anything else goes wrong. That way it will further reduce the likeliness that the person will go back to committing crimes. I used to, as HoS, offer people brigged for a long amount of time that did grand theft or violent actions or whatever 'parole', in that I'd give them a tracking implant then release them, but admins told me to stop. why its an awesome idea

acknowledged that there was no meta in the round. Perma brig was still to much considering it knocked me out the entire round for doing something simple as assisting in what Charlie wanted. Lets be honest here your offer to co-operate? If I confessed that moment what would have happened? You would have perma briged me anyway. That is not an offer to cooperate. Furthermore as I’ve said else where punishments are not good deterrents, it did not teach me to not do that. All it did teach me is to make sure I don’t go quietly if you are on to me. As for shutting down tele-science this round. Bull did you shut it down last round? you did when you saw that I was on because you know that’s what I enjoy doing. That’s meta for one, for two, you shouldn’t have the authorization to do that. This is a research station after all. Are you gona shut down xeno and toxins when we decide to blow up half the station with that instead? Every department has its dangers.

thats not an improvement...that just increases the time if you do resist and if you don't then you get normal time.

Lord whether you think we should trust American psychologists or not I don’t care. If you don’t think we should follow my suggestion please point out the flaws in the tactics I suggest. You have given no input into what it is about my suggestion about how It will not be an improvement other than (you think it wont work). Well think does cut it, I have provided support and referenced examples as to how my idea will work (and can reference more if you like) so please, if you can, address how my suggestion would not be an improvement. What is it about it that will make it not work. Anyways I am also making an added edit to the OP I would like to expand this by adding one more safe guard. I think it should be included that in order to receive the 75% off of your sentence you must also accept a tracking implant so that you may be monitored and may be found if anything else goes wrong. That way it will further reduce the likeliness that the person will go back to committing crimes.

Wow ok let me take this one at a time. 1138, stop talking about murder. I am not suggesting making any changes to the punishment for murder. I think perma brig for a major violent crime like that is acceptable and expected. What I am talking about is nonviolent/minorviolent crimes such as fights, durgs, not doing your duty, the punishment for these crimes should be lessened, only if the person is arrested willingly. That is a big difference than what you are talking about. Please get on the same page and address that. Also I’m not looking at this as /just/ a game. It’s important to me and I’ve put a lot of work into developing my character (and typing up well thought out suggestions to improve the game because I care about it). Lord, I can simply say you are wrong on that. We have overwhelming evidence backed by the American psychological association that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that harsh punishments do not deter criminal activity. And in fact if you up the punishment that will literally ruin the fun for everyone other than people who play security. I really don’t want to have to go and get the actual experiments to prove this as I am not in school anymore and we are discussing a game. But straight point is, that statement is completely wrong and misinformed. There are many other ways to detree crime that are much more effective. Such as what I am suggesting. Jackboot, is there an up vote button?

Those people are childish babies and they need the full punishment given to them. Being in the brig is punishment, it is not a joyride, or a fun time, or anything of the sort. You broke the law and now you need to serve your sentence. What people fail to realize is it's not security's fucking fault they were a complete idiot and broke the law, then got caught. Complying gives you 25% off, and that is only if you turn yourself in instead of making us come look for you. 25% is more than enough. Let me explain something to you. Fistfighting is a violent crime. Fighting is assault. Drug charges vary in severity but more often than not the common charges on station are possession of a controlled substance (which can vary from a misdemeanor to a felony) and possession of a controlled substance with intent to distribute which can carry prison terms up to twelve years. People should not be getting off easy for this stuff. I'd rather upgrade sentencing on crimes that can be felonies because realistically speaking you would be handed over to the police and then tried and convicted for serious crimes. People need to realize their illegal doings have profound impacts on their freedom as well as the outside world. So a couple of things I’d like to say about this. I can easily tell you that increasing current time is a bad idea. I mean if you increase current time to something longer for a simple fist fight then I can guarantee every person you attempt to arrest will resist like mad. Why you might ask? Because there is no reason not too. I mean If I’m gona be put out for the rest of the game because I punched someone well I’d better blow them up with c4 that takes out half the station instead. Why? Because punishment is not an effected behavior deterrent. You have to remember this is a game, not real life. Yes if I punch someone in real life I can go to jail for several days and what not. If I wanted to deal with real life I would go do my job at work and get paid, not sit on my computer playing a video game. The point of this game is so that everyone can be happy and enjoy themselves without stepping on other peoples toes. So no this game should not follow the model you purpose. Furthermore it should not follow what you purpose not simply because it’s a game, but we know in real life your model does not work. First let me correct you, no drug use is not a crime in the real world, that’s in America (do we really want to follow Americas legal system? I mean really). Many countries don’t even consider drugs of any kind a problem and have flourishing prisoner reform systems. So please do not generalize a subject like that because I can easily point to plenty of examples where the crime is less then what you just said it is. As I said, harsh punishment is not an effective behavior deterrent. We have proven this in psychology, and the horrid prison system that America has is a great example. We know that if we want to encourage a behavior a combination of rewards and punishment with an emphasis on rewards works much better. Which is what I am suggesting.

bleh ok I need to remake my original post, of course I don't expect that 1138. In the original post I specified that the rule change should only apply to nonviolent crimes or light assault such as bar/fist fights.

oh yeah one last last thing. susan that train of thought is great and all if you want people to keep hating/fighting security. what you 'think' people should or shouldn't do doesn't really help the situation. we know people behave according to rewards and punishments and thus should fashion a system that uses that knowledge to its advantage to gain a result we want (such as friendly outlook towards security and improved cooperation). what you think people should do has nothing to do with what people will actually do, and if we want to improve results we should look at what people actually do and set up a system that encourages behavior we desire based off of that. If you disagree then I don't want to hear you complain that people hate security and treat it badly because the thought process you utilize invites exactly that.

my main argument was that 25% is not enough to motivate players to go cooperatively. Especially considering the time it takes to rp cooperation takes more time then the 25% would have taken off

-.- so all the work I just put in that post went out the window

So I’m pulling this suggestion from a post I made on the general forums and some people seem to agree. That suggestion is to change the law to encourage cooperation while being arrested. I’m making this suggestion because I hear a lot of people complain about how everyone hates security. If we make a tweak to the time we get off for being arrested willingly that would make people like security a lot more, and like wise security like people a lot more. My suggestion is reducing the time by 75% instead of only 25% if you go cooperatively for first time nonviolent/minor assault crimes (simple fist fights/drugs/contraband/what have you). Second time offenders can have it reduced by 50% or 25% and third time and thereafter should suffer the full time. I remember one time when I was arrested and I went quietly I had my sentence reduced because of it. That is nice however it was very unsatisfying because the reduction was only by like 2.5 mins (25% of the sentence). In fact it had such a little impact I think it took more time to rp the situation of being booked willingly then it would have taken if I resisted. I understand it is being more lenient (which is a common complaint by officers that it will not work) but it will work despite it being leniency. This because the officers are not being lenient on making the arrest. It’s being lenient during the sentencing. This is an important distinction. As many of you have said letting people “off the hook” does encourage them to simply go back and continue committing crimes if they experience no punishment. At the same time, making an arrest and only having 25% of the sentence reduced for good behavior is hardly satisfying and thus not a good motivator for being cooperative. The thought is If only a few minutes will be reduced why not attempt to fight and cause trouble, the worse that will happen is you have a few more mins added to your sentence. However by making an arrest it places a punishment factor on the player to cease taking whatever actions they are taking. But by informing the player that 75% of the sentence can be removed (a huge amount) if they come quietly actually encourages cooperation and even thankfulness (players will be grateful to sec for offering to reduce most of the time)and it will be worth it not to resist for the fun of it. Furthermore with an understanding that if the crime is committed again the reduction cannot be used again that will encourage most players to cease criminal activities (you will always have that one that blows up the station anyway). This is actually a criminal model that many police forces currently use to reduce crime and is backed by psychological evidence (my psych degree speaking). It uses motivational and punishment/reward models that we know work effectively. Making this simple change would have an impact on the way sec is treated. *edit add* I would like to expand this by adding one more safe guard. I think it should be included that in order to receive the 75% off of your sentence you must also accept a tracking implant so that you may be monitored and may be found if anything else goes wrong. That way it will further reduce the likeliness that the person will go back to committing crimes. (and susan if you accidentally delete this again I will turn you into a furry)

wow, it's actually interesting to get the perspective from security officers, sadly I can easily see what you guys are talking about. I hope I never treat security that badly without reason (I'll always treat the one off shit officers badly). I do like to think I do well with being arrested (been arrested several times and almost always go willingly, makes for fun rp). it's late now but I will consider this and see if I can come up with an adequate solution. thought i do have one suggestion that i think will greatly improve the way players treat officers and the way officers treat players. One suggestion is a change to the law to encourage cooperation while being arrested. I remember one time when I was arrested and I went quietly I had my sentence reduced because of it. That is nice however it was very unsatisfying because the reduction was only by like 2.5 mins (25% of the sentence). In fact it had such a little impact I think it took more time to rp the situation of being booked willingly then it would have taken if I resisted. I think if we make a tweak to this law we can greatly encourage players to be cooperative and treat sec better. My suggestion is reducing the time by 75% if you go cooperatively for first time nonviolent/minor assault crimes (simple fist fights/drugs/contraband/what have you). Second time offenders can have it reduced by 50% or 25% and third time and thereafter should suffer the full time. I understand it is being more lenient (which is a common complaint by officers that it will not work) but I think it will work despite it being leniency. I think this because the officers are not being lenient on making the arrest. It’s being lenient during the sentencing. This is an important distinction. As many of you have said letting people “off the hook” does encourage them to simply go back and continue committing crimes if they experience no punishment. Not making an arrest also encourages the players to see how much they can get away with. At the same time, making an arrest and only having 25% of the sentence reduced for good behavior is hardly satisfying and thus not a good motivator for being cooperative. If you only reduce a few minutes why not attempt to fight and cause trouble, the worse that will happen is you have a few more mins added to your sentence. However by making an arrest it places a punishment factor on the player to cease taking whatever actions they are taking. But by informing the player that 75% of the sentence can be removed (a huge amount) if they come quietly actually encourages cooperation and even thankfulness (players will be grateful to sec for offering to reduce most of the time)and it will be worth it not to resist for the fun of it. Furthermore with an understanding that if the crime is committed again the reduction cannot be used again that will encourage most players to cease criminal activities (you will always have that one that blows up the station anyway). This is actually a criminal model that many police forces currently use to reduce crime and is back by psychological evidence (my psych degree speaking). It uses motivational and punishment/reward models that we know work effectively. Making this simple change would have an impact on the way sec is treated.

You still want this? I thought you broke his cute kitty heart.

I guess I'll contribute my thoughts to this discussion. First serveris I do believe hackie is honestly trying to hold a conversation in hopes of coming with a clear understanding why security is looked upon in a bad light and is not simply complaining about security. In fact he had purposed a reason in defense of why security for the most part is good. My thoughts are that the bad views on security is simply an aspect of the job title that cannot be avoided. The job of security is to arrest anyone who causes chaos (they need to maintain order). That means at least 50% of interactions between security and other members is that of security coming in to stop what ever the members are doing. I say this because there is literally no reason to call security other than because someone caused chaos and trouble. This automatically makes the trouble maker upset with security (even if they were being rightfully arrested no one likes being arrested). This also puts stains on the innocent because anyone involved with the situation may be arrested as well by mistake (something I've seen happen often). This causes a distrust because even innocent people will fear security. Basically securities job is to stop people and people don't like being stoped. So already security has a negative tone when they get involved. This is where I think hackies comments come in. With this negative tone it doesn't take much at all (one arrest happy officer) to go from the desire to avoid security to simply not trusting and disliking them granting the title shitcurity. Solutions I don't like simply discussing an issue with out purposing solutions. We can actually take a lesson in some police practices if we want to resolve this issue. One, clearly remove the "problem officers" that makes everyone call security shitcurity. However this won't fix everything. Security will still have a bad tone that no one will be fond of. I would also suggest mandate new policies in the job title. Instead of simply "maintaining order" perhaps they can also assist crew members in basic day to day working of the station. I actully wanted to do this because I wanted to practice coordination between telescience and security so that we can do hostage rescue and infiltration alot better. I was quickly shot down because security didn't want to work with me (they would rather distrust telescientists than improve relations with RnD). If security did things like this and worked with other departments I would give security more exposure during calm situations and reflect better on the department because of the helpful attitude. Perhaps have security guards assigned to department to keep an eye on the safety of the apartment (I know I would like one in xeno just in case I get attacked by slimes, but I get the feeling the security guard will arrest me for being attacked...The bad light of security I'm talking about) I can come up with other suggestions but I am posting from my phone. The main idea is. If you just want the bad light but not shitcurity then simply get rid of the bad officers. If you would like the entire station to think fondly on security rather than negatively then a much larger reform will need to take place.

Random thought. What we need is a lizard mafia or another mafia as well so we can have some fight against the jawdat family. I mean you have so many retainers to protect interests but very little to protect interests from. W could get turf wars going where the jawdat family has most of security and another family have engineering or science. I think it would make for interesting interactions

I don't believe I ever said you gaining a dead squirrel would degrade my role playing, if I did I need to revise it. We share a similar view. As I said if my own thing would be approved then I think it's perfectly reasonable. The main thing I was pointing out is that this is less of an improvement to the department and much more of an improvement to your specific character. I take issue with it because you where trying to sell the squirrel as a major improvement to the department of which you now acknowledge that it's less that than it is an improvement to your character to make your character unique (snowflaky in my opinion). Which is why I am against it especially considering if anyone has something like this it should be me considering the time I've spent developing my character and telescience. I never requested it befor because I did not think something like this would even be considered. However if it is then I would like something similar for myself. If that can be done then I think it's fair that anyone who dedicates alot of time to telescience should be allowed to have something like this. *edit* Furthermore it seems you underestimate the importance of fairness. I feel we should strive for a level of fairness and equal treatment within the game because we should be considerate to each other as decent human beings. No one likes when they feel like they have been treated unfairly and the whole point of this game is to have fun. When i say fair I mean we should treat people equally in perportion to the level of contribution they have done. If I got some kind of super secret item that only security officers can get that would be unfair to security officers because I have contributed nothing to security to get the item. That is why i am arguing that if we do approve this squirrel for you then I think we should approve similar items for others that contribute to telescience such as me.

Pet or dead all of my objections and concerns are still valid and need to be addressed, if you please

Although I would love to see telescience improved with more features, I don't think this would be an improvement to the lab but more of an unfair improvement to your character. Like I said I improved role play in telescience by creating blue space slime and putting them there. IV also used telescience to embark in epic exploring adventures with different teams. I would love to see telescience expanded upon more. But this blue space squirrel would only be beneficial to you and unfair to anyone else who has dedicated so much time to telescience, Unless every major telescience gets one.

I'm gona throw my two cents in. Im against it. Or at least if you get one I want one too. I already work xenobiology for about an hr to make myself a blue space pet slime that is special to me. If you get one for free that's pretty unfair as I have to work for mine every shift. If he gets something like that I especially think I deserve Somthing like that because it was him seeing my blue space pet slime that likely prompted him to want his own pet. I never requested it because I did think it was too snowflaky to get and I can just make pets other ways. But if this is something we'll actually consider I'll be posting my own request shortly (Likely a cat or fox).

But I Wana know about all the hot single xeno ladies in my area

I do frances. I only recently developed him and until my character I don’t think anyone else did. I would like to point out you are exactly right about the limitedness. I have to do xenobiology to make my hobby of telescience a working thing. Telescience is useless without other departments as I stated previously.