nonno_anselmo

I started playing in february 2019 i think and stopped around late 2020 i now very sporadically play due to time constraints. During this time i played only exclusively physician (Owen Barnard) and had much time to reflect on the issue that is being discussed in this thread also thanks to the inputs of medical players with which i was able to interact with at the time. Inb4: "wow, fuck off none cares about your udnecuated opinion you chairoleplay relay main dingleberry" I managed to see both the previous surgery superdoctor concept in action aswell as the response to the presented chart. Frabkly oan issue with people superdoctoring as surgeons has always been the fact that a physician's role in the gtr (and trauma physician, when it existed, in the ICU) was never enforced by anyone in the same way a job boundary like that of an engineer doing atmospherics. This implies that anyone doing physician job as a surgeon was always brushed off as "he is a surgeon so the player is more experienced" "he just wanted to help" "medical is a team game" (note: you do not need a team to inject tricordrazine and mortaphenyl) "he would have administered chems in the OR anyways" "it was an emergency". This leads to: 1a. Players not pointing out to staff when overstepping ensues, thus not being any punishment 1b. This loops back with people taking more freedom 2. The favoring of "customs" over actual "rules" A physician's role has always been, wilfully or not, nebulous with the general rule being "your job is surgeon without surgery". Normally this implies that the player opts for chemicals, splints, trauma kits, wheelchairs, TLC, painkiller prescription medication and glasses, leaning on a gardener for any healing chemicals. Even making medical mixes inside IV needles and your hypospray. However the aforementioned solutions have never been mentioned as it is not intuitive and not needed when a surgeon is present. There has always been two was of healing: the chemical route and the surgical route. The surgical route having an exclusive on healing bone fractures as it cannot be chemically healed; the chemical route however has always been handicapped by the lack of available tools unlike surgery who has access to their kit right out of the gate and that can only be improved through science laser scalpel variations and upgrades. Surgeon has always been the no-nonsense, factory medbay role, while physician who is more roleplay focused due to the time constraints of metabolization and a focus on patient wellness beyond the simple physical ability of one. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ All of this implies that the physician relies on a pharmacist or the exploratory chemistry office, this is not the case. A way to help the physician role more desirable and playable is to give it the tools by planting in medbay, inside of safe cabinets, i am talking about limited (3, bottles as an example) copies of basic healing chemicals. I assure you this will not put pharmacists out of their job. Diluting and sharing ground painkillers and handmaking tricord has always been a thing experienced physicians players should be taught to do in the absence of a pharmacist. Giving physicians the tools to actually treat patients, at least through an expansion of the medical vending machine and cabinets would definetly make the role more desirable as it always had to be much much much much more resourceful than a surgeon or a FR who have their full set of tools already decked out in their office. These cabinets could even be physician-locked for that exact purpose. i would go as far as giving hypodermic needles only to first responders and physicians and removing the possibility to do any surgery ever from the physician role. This very thing, the whole medicine cabinet proposal, has been proposed and garnered a lot of support from medical players in this very tread. __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Nothing has been done in the past years to enforce or define a physician role, this treatment has only been reserved for the surgeon role and although it should've trickled down to the physician as well it has not had the impact everyone was hoping or expecting although i did see a sensible impact at the time. This is likely going to horseshoe back in a couple years when people want more diversity in their medical department, I can only hope the player count will be enough to entice this need. Roostercat's prediction is, speaking from (not valuable) experience, likely to become true as the flow of injuried is never enough to warrant a steady line of work that can satisfy gameplay and will lead to competition and difficulties between people. This has happened before when surgeon was physician+trauma physician+surgery and this is very much of a reality even in the MRP and LRP servers i play on, moreso in the first that the latter. Please do more to define the physician role, increase mechanical diversity through sensible and enforceable bounds instead of removing them altogether and treat this option as a nuclear one. As of now any improvement on these dimension will help. I am aware this post is more on "why we should remove the surgeon role" but, In My OpInIoN, the issue lies in the aforementioned reasons and i hope this has given you the perspective of someone who plays physician and that would prefer having his role not be merged with s*rgery. I am open to any question, curiosities, critiques, anything to further this metaphorical pustule of an argument that really needs to pop one way or the other. Also consider making an actual feedback tread for the github merge. -1 edit: i remove 1 also and added In My OpInIoN

I proposed "Fepurr" or "Fepur", a play on femur and purr

Hi gamers, i read this thread and got curious. Do bear in mind that I have not played in about a year so my """"""""""""""""""contribution"""""""""""""""""" to this discussion will be that of historical memory and some background info on the current state of the art for each role. In the past there was a lot of overlap with what a physician and a surgeon do, the heavy cordoning of the physician role from all surgery-related procedures took a long journey and some deep consideration from anyone who was playing the medical bay roles at the time. One of the main reasons that such heavy stops were placed on the physician role was to make it so that physicians would rely on their roleplay-focused knowledge of chemical treatments to fix any problem one might have. The main reason, however, for physicians stepping into surgery and surgeons into the GTR/ICU was due to the fact that the array of chemicals physicians had in their arsenal was limited to the choices we have today. It revolved around Bicaridine - Dermaline - [median painkiller I forgot the name of] - Dexalin+ - Peridaxon - Alky. Most of these chemicals did not have the drawbacks introduced by Kermit Chems updates thus had no discernible skill component to the administration of these medicaments which made the physician role gameplay function revolve around a sleight of hands with mixing them in your hypospray and effectively cutting the downtime of the patient inactivity as when someone is on a roller bed they are functionally useless to whatever commotion is going on; this barebones treatment combined with the ability for anyone roleplay-wise to administer these easy to acquire chems resulted in people "taking matters into their own hands" and functionally making a physician a medibot with speech options. This has been sort of patched with unintuitive yet not-overbearing nooks and crannies to the chemical codex by implementing OD effects (see buthazoline) and proper administration mechanism (see: Alkysine [it has a chance to cause brain damage if you give it at above 2u] which is more functional if administered through an IV). This resulted in physician players being capable of using the given tinctured to their full extent thanks to being well versed in all matters chemical (aside from their production), making their role much more delicate and increasing their skills ceiling by many magnitudes (although i must admit that going from 1 to 3 is a 200% increase so do take this with a grain of salt). Likewise surgeons had most surgeries given exclusively to them after the acknowledgement that all of their exclusive surgeries are solely for quality of life from a functional standpoint (e.g.: fractures can be ignored with a splint and over-the-counter painkiller) that can be slowly albeit just as effectively fixed through the proper and informed work of your average physician. Of course this still result in surgeons administering all advanced treatment chemicals because "i am in the power of doing it so this means it is right" but that's another story. As for alt titles I will have to sadly say that they have been largely ineffective in the past (see: trauma physician attending the GTR and physician attending the ICU) as well as an alt title like attending physician will result (once again) in the creation of a role which blurs the line between physician and surgeon like old unregulated surgeons did, taking away from the gameplay and ALSO roleplay (remember that in medbay a lot of roleplay comes from the convalescence and interactive treatment of the patient [assuming they are not critical but baymed already makes people so resilient to crit and death that it is hard to not bring someone back]) when the current situation results in a low influx of injured players and when the situation causes a large influx there will be too many patients for there to be any interaction as medbay must engage factory medbay mode. I still play to this day on mrp and lrp when i have the chance, namely /tg/, and they have a unified medical doctor role. This works there because for obvious reasons i won't state there is a constant influx of injured players but already when going from lrp to mrp where the influx has a lower ramp up in players and a higher concentration of metagangs the cracks can be seen with people actively fighting and scorn rising through the players as few who are more efficient and abrasive take advantage of the unified role to simply take over the entirety of the patient haul. While this is benefician from a gameplay standpoint for everyone who gets healed quickly and is able to return to their shenainigans, it is disheartnening for anyone out of the loop. Yes, /tg/ manuel has a medbay metaclique problem and it makes the job nigh impossible to play when faced against a squadron of highly trained and highly efficient players coordinating to keep everyone alive without involving any unfamiliar faces, yes this is and was facilitated by the unified role. Do remember that role identity is also character identity to some degree. edit: i do not think aurora has this problem nowadays as the heavy stops placed on each role permit a properly fledged character and role identity, forcing a healthier mood through interaction, roleplay and a cooperative reliance between the roles. now delete paramedic and berets.

Make the punishment for resisting harsher, brain damage, huge pain spikes, brain trauma such as paranoia and visions to at least represent your mind was still borked, bleeding/loss of blood, brute damage spike. Right now resisting cult does some damage but that stuff can be shrugged off really easy

hard extended is a sin, we can't do blood drives/vivisections/first aid courses every single round. We can't hope for a miner to forget what gravity is either

It did not take me 3 days, i always thought medbay had its roles blurred by a general lack of mechanical interaction, however i still think the homogenisation of roles is not going to fix any issue and that the effort should be instead channelled into new mechanics capable of rendering these roles special

I know what i'm gonna do this week then

I would also like to add: why not add ways for these roles to further separate temselves from oneanother the same way a roboticist is not a scientist (although roboticists break into r&d more often than not), the xeno- jobs are separated from oneanother and CSI/Detective are separated from Officers. In every server i go medical always feels like it is oversimplified or has to trade in mechanics for making sure Ayeet Mahpoop can stop John Jonhsons from going horizontal. I am not asking to channel this need for a different medbay not into a name change from which we'll derive probably nothing but rather the addition of actual mechanics to make the game more enticing to both learn and discover the nieches of, i am sure most of you have read the chemistry doc with the proposed changes, truth be told all of these changes were made to also make roles like physician, nurse, psychologist and to some degree TP into a more flavorful job wherr the player is pushed to spend a few minutes reading the wiki or at least giving a proper answer to a patient complaining about itching after receiving a dose of Dermaline. Building on what is already there and the possibilities they open up, what would a surgeon do in 2460? What about your average family doctor? And a nurse? Surely there would be new machines, new tools, new forms of treatment beyond the ones currently avaliable, no? The times are ripe to distinguish the medbay of the server from that of other servers instead of still being tied to these old mechanics still owing up to the older systems,there is potential to make something enjoyable instead of putting a bland patch over it. I am sorry for making yet another post probably bumping it to unneeded heights hopefully not disrupting anyone's experience on the forums aswell

-It is not a "No True Scotsman" fallacy because no opinion was dismissed, i am simply asking people to see for themselves that the roles have a place and a functionality from both an rp and mechanical standpoint which are already two hard enough things to balance and are currently balanced enough to not warrant them to be dismissed as bloat and their removal. -The things that have been mentioned, as stated before, will be inhibited because the roles create a clear cut definition of what to do and not do conforming to the player's necessities and skills too. If a player plays nurse it means they favor rp, paperwork and not going in too deep with the mechanics related to surgery and chemistry, if someone plays surgeon it means they rather tackle the mechanics of surgery sites, surgery site layers and implants. The same way people play xenoarcheologist, xenobotanist and xenobiologist, we can still merge all 3 roles into a single one called Xenospecialist, it has access to all 3 labs aswell as eva, we can merge CSI and Investigator into CSI since we are 440 years in the future and education aswell as csi technology must have advanced to a point where some loon chainsmoking cigarettes and wearing a trenchcoat is useless; we can merge Bartender and Cook into Cafeteria Manager or Catering Manager too since we are on a sterile station whose only purpose is phoron research, no need for a bartender or chef role. All of these things are bloat technically, cooks and bartenders share access and vault constantly into one another's workspace, xenobiology, xenoarcheology and xenobotany all technically deal with alien lifeforms and aswell as CSI and Investigator are only separated by access, these roles purely exist for flavor. -The chart exists because of people who refuse to read the wiki or play intern, it is on the same level as a scientist building another AI because the RD left the door to their office open. It is not my fault and i should not pay because people refuse to behave properly on a few occasions. As kermit also stated on his previous post people more often than not ask to assist and do not take needless action, expecially those who know that with brainmed are able to evaluate wheter or not someone is going to quickly crash or not (scan, count to 3,scan again and see how much BA is missing). -(cont to 3rd answer, formatting on the phone is hard) the shifts in age calling for realism are minor issues and the new ones are in all likelyhood to be final not because they actually make sense. Unless 440 years from now we'll have super learning where you can condense today's years of proper training into a shorter time span.

The funny thing is that: medbay does more than run at you if you fall down a shaft already. It handles: -Your perscriptions (chemist, physician) -Checkups (physician, nurse) -First aid courses (any role except surgeon) -Forns countless interns and residents (all roles) -Gives information on your medication be it psychoactive or not (physician, nurse, chemist, psychologist, psychiatrist) -Give insight on one's conditions be they physical or neurological (all roles) -Gives survivors and unreachable injuried people directions on what do (trauma physician, EMT) -Pats assistant_shitter.dm on the back and gives them tips on how to not get banned in an IC manner (all roles) -Still has to handle complex medical cases where everyone should be around their 50s to handle all facets of it at once (all roles) There are many things we do not do though! -Cloning -Genetics -Dissections -Virology -Xenovirology -Xeno-Based dissections -Nanites -Exploratory chemistry -The exploring of the human body which has probably stopped being a mistery for us ages ago -The exploration of xeno races on the station which thanks to their respective race's efforts in anatomy has stopped being a mistery for them ages ago and decades ago for us. People who, and i have to point this out, have played the department have already thoroughly explained why and how these roles generate roleplay and create a healthy environment in which you can freely work with a team. Without necessarily doing the many things they were accused of such as: overstepping, whing about realism (literally who) , whining about role restrictions (literally who). I know it sounds gatekeepey but this whole thread calls for it, i urge everyone to actually stand up from their desks and spend more than a round and begin to play intern or resident and then pick a role they'd like play after getting acquintanced with the chemicals, surgery procedures, basic etiquette, steps to take to both stabilize and resuscitate a patient. The only roles that come to mind with which you can bring over knowledge from other roles is physician to trauma physician but that is it. Lately it has started to seem like a trend for people who hardly ever touch the department to start suggestion threads which accuse the department of things that either do not happen or happened that one time maybe and people who pretend to know what we need but due to a lack of experience only propose things none really needs or has asked for. Where is my imbible gauze? Where is my injection-ingestion-touch-smoke methods of giving chemicals with their actual benefits and list of chemicals who can only use them? Where are the chemicals specifically made for the scenery object that is the cryotube? What about the medical hud inside of sleepers? Where is the nerf to clonexadone? Why can't we propose new chemicals to work with and maybe get these awful awful trekchems out of the way as they are arguably older than some players? Why can't we add aditional reagents to the chemmaster to make actually complex recipes and maybe fix the fact that all of the chemicals medbay uses drain all the carbon and acetone? Where are the fixes to the following outdated and badly formatted paperwork: the autopsy forms, the medical release form, the medical wavier form, the failed neural imaging form? Why can't we have a body scanner in the morgue so we can print out the needed body scan for autopsies when the CSI has one? People like to bitch and moan about medical players bitching and moaning about change, that is because medical already bitches and moans about actual issues in the department which need actual changes which always end up withe CIYS rule or the "dude lesbay lmao". If you want to change medbay for the better implement actual mechanics for us to play with, brainmed was a step in the right direction but the homogenisation of roles under the pretense that it fixes nonexistent problems in the name of "straying from realism" is simply wrong. Add actual mechanics to the department which sound futuristic at least or just create the Autodoc Operator, port Autodocs from CM, slap in a 300u cryobeaker compartment the chemist can fill in and reduce it the medbay roles to 3,that is unrealistic and futuristic enough for all of you, it's not like half of you played mefbay anyways. Furthermore i would like to apologize if in the past you had RP experiences not up to par with your standards or you witnessed one of the few stray cases in which there was overstepping, none of these are the case anymore, really.

Whatever kermit said.

To be reductive, i think this whole argument is ahead of its time. It proposes a detrimental and negatively confusing change which fixes a fundamentally nonexistent issue and is based on gameplay mechanics that are to eventually be added to the game. I have been away from the server for a while now due to personal reasons and only recently got the time to play a ciuple rounds and i honestly have seen tje department in the same way i had left it a month prior, healthy. Borya already stated how having MedSci first needs proper mechanical support, if i (begrudgingly, since i have the experience) had to make parallels with other servers in which there is codepartemental effort between med and sci or an outright merging of both, i would immediatly find the already expressed flaw in your argument, aurora lacks cloning, genetics, virology, dissection surgery, chemistry (it is a pharmacy, no e-chem). There is nothibg to research, really. To adress titles being "arbitrary and useless" i would like to remind everyone that the machine supposed to heal organ damage in the absence of a chemist and surgeon, the cryo chamber, has been broken for the longest time (introduction of brainmed) and is seen as a scenery object due to this. RP does in fact generate from being a nurse, tp, surgeon, physician. Nurse players appreciate being asked things and being guided by a physician/tp/surgeon in their respective ambients, physicians appreciate giving counseling on perscriptions, handling paperwork and working with the rest of the department, tp players appreciate the adrenaline filled moments in which a critical patient needs to be resuscitated and surgeon players aporeciate post op procedures of giving the now renamed tramadol and informing the patient of what happened. I am goi g to beg your pardon but you really are making presumptions based on outdated anecdotal data. Factory medbay is an issue across all servers and i can assure each and every single one of you that here it is not as bad as a fraction of what i have seen and experienced (being ahelped for spending 4 minutes prepping revival surgery and succesfully doing it instead of chugging the body into a cloning pod being one of my fondest one) elsewhere. If the aim is to reduce the amount of disregard for rules andpresumed bloat which, to be frank, has been called an issue only by people who only enter medbay when ghosting then i would rather see it fixed by giving each role an asset through which they can aid an array of issues without necessarily overstepping. Physicians, Nurses and TPs cannot fix organs? Give us working cryochambers and cryoxadone Nurses cannot fix broken bones? We have tramadol pill bottles which can also be ground,splints and wheelchairs are a thing. No chemist to make bicard and dermaline? Tricord is already potent enough as is and kits exist, there are dermaline pills (can be ground) for a total of 105u in the cabinet near the reception. No chemist to make imidazoline and or surgeon for eye surgery? Point the patient to the kitchen or the garden where theycan taste delicious carrot based dishes. The point is, you have to be creative and to, to be blunt, git gud. If you lose someone because you did not know what to do then it is fine, you did all you could do and you hopefully used proper etiquette and did so within the limits of your own duty without taking away from the fun of others. Regarding the anecdotal data where other MDs defer to you because they do not know what to do i frankly am going to tell you it sounds like their problem and that you should not fill in for other people's shortcomings. It is their issue they did not play intern or resident long enough and it is their issue they have not read the largely outdated and badly formatted wiki articles on how to play MD, one of the few roles that does not even have an etiquette page. On another note, i would suggest keeping tabs on assholes berating newbies for not following the meta and perhaps informing staff of people being proverbial dicks as it is normal to play a snobbish cunt but when that is their only characterization and it has a negative impact on the game experience maybe it is time to take action icly and ask them to proverbially fuck off or ask someone above to ask them to tone it down. With this whole lasagna of whatever said, i am for renaming a few roles of mebay or perhaps reducing thw amount of slots avaliable but this is just a solution to an issue that is not there. In my honest opinion the solution to this issue is changing the playerbase's mentality through the wiki, by adding mechanics which discourage overstepping through choice aswell as enforcing IC limitation by teaching the staff to have a harsher no nonsense polcy regarding these things. Also, on a side note, refrain from saying everyone is confused by what you said in the future, the proper explanation of your points is key to getting them across. P.S.: i speak for the medbay during EU hours and the begging of the US/AU overlap hours. P.P.S.: i wrote all of this on the phone, typos may be present, feel free to adress them. Formatting and grammar checking is hard from here.