TrickingTrapster

ICly, both heisters and mercs should logically try to cause as little collateral kills as possible, since the more they kill, the more heat they will draw and the more law enforcement will be on their ass. They should only kill when absolutely necessarily, not because they have a gun and the other guy's gun doesn't deal as much damage mechanically. I accept being killed in a round of raider or merc when they put some effort in the situation surrounding it, not running down a hall and just shooting their guns because they have guns and there was this one sec officer that saw them. Want examples of situations I accept and would be ICly possible, jackboot?

I'm perfectly fine with my character dying if it's actually played out, but not if it's "HEY LOOK BAD GUYS PEW PEW / OH HEY DARK SWORD SCHWING SCHWING". What I'm trying to say is that the focus of the three gamemodes is a little off: Raider and merc get a little too much incentive to kill, while cult gets too much incentive to play to win. I sign up for a round of roleplay, not a round of call of duty/ whatever melee fighting game there is. If my character gets taken hostage and sec is being idiots and rush in and I'm killed as a result of that, I won't mind as much, but if I'm killed because a random guy says "Hey look at this" and then starts spam-converting me I'm drawing the line. (A little bit of an extreme example but it's to illustrate my point).

My point about cult is that it's mostly not /fun/. Only for the players playing the cult. If anything it should be the other way around, according to the rules. Same point somewhat goes to merc and raider, they spawn with so many tools meant for killing other players(read: Taking them out of the round) that it becomes impossible not to use them. I'm not saying these antags are supposed to be peaceful, but the focus of these gamemodes is not "creating fun and engaging gameplay for the crew" but "have some fun and try to win since you can shoot anyone in your way". Or in the case of cult, "Get nine, get Nar'Sie". I think we need to shift the focus away from the robustness of these gamemodes.

Well, there we go. A change to improve cult: Make deconversions accurate, or make conversions able to fail without the target requiring to resist. At least one thing: Make the chaplain more active in cult rounds. Maybe not through other departments calling him, but through the chaplain himself sensing what's going on.

I get that it doesn't make sense ICly, and that is the entire problem. The only way to really de-cult someone is with the chaplain. Maybe get the chaplain himself to be more active, like whenever someone is converted, send them a message like "You feel a dark force at work..." or something like that. There is a way to fight the cult, but it's not really given enough emphasis. Also, collective narrative? The only thing I have seen happen in cult rounds is this: "Hey, cool, we got a new member. Alright, now tell him to fuck off until we can summon Nar'Sie.". That may be a bit to the players but can't there be something like initiation rites? I find it a little unbelievable that a recently-converted person can immediately create perfect, working runes despite having zero knowledge of the occult beforehand. And if your counter-argument is, "But on the conversion Nar'Sie gives them the knowledge" then you might as well give the cult all their words from the get-go so they don't have to bother and get on with things.

I'm fine with consenting to some antagging, and on the face of it, the concept of merc and raider isn't too bad, but the incentives given to the players that spawn as said antags is just a little off imo. You spawn in a ship full of weapons, how would you not think to go loud from the word go? There are zero incentives for the mercs to interact with the crew other than sec, and even that is often just the firefight and the occasional hostage. Maybe have some official forged inspection documents spawned in so they can go around the departments taking high-end items as they inspect and no one watches? Something that /isn't/ a full-on gun but can be useful in stealing things from the station, like a shrink ray to size down shield generators, emitters or even the nuke and put them in your bag, making the crew wonder where they went? Just throwing ideas out there but I think spawning with only guns and combat gear isn't exactly putting players in the right direction for crew interaction, you know, the entire point of antags. Also, the main reason I hate cult is the forced conversion thing. They get you on a conversion rune? It's over. You're either cult or dead. So that means either taking players out of their intended character or out of the round. Which is just a bad mechanic in my opinion. Maybe give the chaplain some extra tools to defend themselves or find out how to stop the cult? I mean, even if security catches a cult in current cult rounds, how much incentive do they have to call the chaplain on that? Even if they know runes are involved? The chaplain is /never/ called. Maybe make the chaplain a little more active in cult rounds? He's supposed to be pretty important, but the only time I see them taking part in it is when they die to it.

Yes, if I have to rate the three, cult is the worst, merc in the middle, and heist is the lightest. I only occasionally play a raider round because I know it can be done well(only to be disappointed 30 minutes later) but I /always/ nope out of a cult because I KNOW I'm not going to enjoy it. The easiest solution as I see it is taking it out of the secret rotation, not sure how many people will agree. As for merc, it actually never happens unless voted on at which point I decide to play something engaging instead like MGSV.

The players would improve if incentive would be taken away from "be as robust as you can to win". Like, really, the big appeal of merc and raiders is "you get free guns to shoot with". Getting the wrong vibes for a RP-centered game imo. Cult forces people to RP things they don't want to RP. That's just a no in general.

I feel like if I don't post it now I'll never do it so here goes. I hate, hate, hate, hate, HATE cult, merc and raider rounds, purely because (most of) their appeal is solely based on "fuck up the station in some way". There is almost zero way to do these things peacefully. Especially since rounds take two hours and people that don't like the gamemode go cryo the second they find out. I'll go ahead and split cult from the other two and adress them seperately, to what I think are the huge issues with them. So, merc and raider. I have less problems with raider than merc, because raiders have to get /somewhat/ creative on how they go about their objective and i HAVE seen them go well, but that's like 3% of all raider rounds. Merc is basically just a bunch of traitors given guns and saying "fuck it, we're shooting up the place". I know there's a little more to it than that, but I have to ask how this is considered engaging and creating fun for the crew? Mercs try to get as far as they can, get spotted, firefight ensues, either the mercs and a lot of the crew die and it's over, or the mercs get to the nuke and it's over. How is that engaging for anyone except the mercs, sec, and the occasional hostage? Might as well call the evac shuttle on the first sighting, it'll be over sooner that way. As for raiders, eh, they do it better, but still end up in waaaay too much firefights. Now, the big one. Seriously, fuck cult. I hate it I hate it I /hate/ it. People do not check certain antag boxes for a reason. So getting converted when you didn't is entirely pointless since you will have A. no idea how to play cult and waste their effort and time put into it or B. cryo because you don't want to be an antag and make both the effort the cult put in worthless and waste all the time they spent setting you up for it. Now on to my second problem with cult. Why is it so irreversible ICly? I get that it's mechanically possible with the chaplain, but currently that ends up with one of three situations. Either the chaplain is a cultist, there is no chaplain, or the chaplain has no idea he can do that. Seriously, over the last, say, 20 cult rounds, how many deconversions have been made? I have never seen a single one. Maybe make it a little more obvious? There is currently no way to resist being converted, other than dying and getting soulstoned ANYWAY. My last gripe with cult... Why in the holy mother of memesus is it in secret rotation? This may be a little personal, but I hate it so much when I find out it's a gamemode I hate so much I go to cryo and have to wait for round end because it stresses me too much to play. At least merc gets voted every now and then so I won't even have the incentive to join, but when it's secret and raider and cult are in the rotation at least 3 out of the 5 rounds I can play are usually raider or cult. Maybe RNGesus hates me but this is getting ridiculous how much cult is popping up. The fixes? Imo, either remove them from secret rotation and replace them with fun things, or better yet, up the possibility of a more fun gamemode (rev is not too bad but still not my favorite, vamp, ling and malf AI are meh and can end badly but don't have to, and wizard is just a great round because people finally realized that blowing up the station in the first 20 minutes is NOT the way to go. Traitor is basically extended anyway with a few scraps here and there.). Or, alternatively, please shift the focus from the robustness of "kill sec and we win" to something more RP-focused. Right now it's just build-up to a battle and from there it's play to win. I came here to roleplay, not play call of duty. (Okay sorry that was uncalled for but still.) Sorry for ranting, but I need to put this out there. I'm playing less and less because these imo cancerous gamemodes keep popping up.

+1. I know this player, I recognize their characters. Both good and the characters are well played out. No objections to a head whitelist here.

Hehe, yeah, I remember that. I was Miles, the detective. I thought being smart and keeping out of the fight while taking over the CCIA escort duty while the actual escort was fighting. Trying to get some tea only to walk right in on the firefight. Amusing to watch though.

Uh, yeah. Now that this train is back on rail I want to say that I do +1 this idea. Might however want to wait until after we get settled into the new map. Don't want players having to adapt to a new map as well as to a new economy system. One of the two will be left in the dust and I'll bet it's the economy system if both are pushed at the same time. I heard it won't be long now, so yeah.

While I do agree that drones take away both the "mechanical stress" and the "roleplay atmosphere", and I think they should be reworked a bit, I don't think the solution posted by the OP is the one we should go for. Good job bringing it up somewhere either way.

Hoooo boy. This feels like old youtube - Press more on a comment section and go on an adventure. Seriously, though. I only play SS13 on 2 servers, including Aurora, and even then the second one is only to do things that aren't allowed on Aurora. And when I play on Aurora, characters I play often (characters like Yumi Yotin, Albert Gizro and from the old map, Chantal Faers) very quickly develop relationships with characters they see often. I remember Chantal actually becoming quite trusted with a regular HoS and was frequently given officer gear despite being a cadet for quite a while... Even though, as player, I'm very unrobust (A.K.A. I suck at combat.). Gizro has built up a big enough reputation that some medical staff actually sigh in relief when he arrives. Case in point, try to play several rounds in a row as the same character, and find the characters you interacted with the round before. That will get some relationships going pretty fast. On to another issue I've seen in here. Something about cloning. I don't think it's very unreasonable, especially for medical staff, to assume they have been cloned after they find themselves outside the cryotubes in medbay with no recollection of how they got there. Especially since they are trained to know the symptoms, and can conclude having them themselves. Whether they are traumatized by it or not heavily depends on the character in my opinion; A grizzled old veteran, for example, won't question it and move on, while a 17 year old intern will probably panic and go apeshit over the fact they died in the first place. About the main point of the post, well... I only play on 2 servers, but the crap that happens on the other server, well. Let's just say Aurora can still hold itself in pretty high regard when compared to other servers. Though yeah, I must admit I had more fun on the server when I just started, but that could also be me getting used to the regular happenings on the server and not be amazed by it anymore.

Mmmm. While I do think it's a good thing to make players unable to do things their characters would be unable to do (Don't you dare do my work better than me, assistant!), can't that be (mostly) implemented with the skills tab that already exists? I mean, they are variables that are being kept track of, they can be used for something. "OH, but, Mary sues and stuff!" No, that's both against the rules, and mods and admins can actually check people's skills to see if they are. I like the idea, but I think it makes a lot of unnecessary detours. Edit: Plus, the current skills system even keeps track of age versus possible experience. Having a lot of skills maxed as an 80 year old guy will net you a way lower rating than when you do the same with a 17 year old intern. Will this new system do that, if it goes through? I guess it should, or we get the station full of 17 year olds with maxed out INT performing perfect surgeries all day long while having a full stock of self-made peridaxon. Something to consider there.

@Menown Yes, that's exactly my point. The system Nanako provided won't change a thing. It would only work on extended rounds, and then only without griefers doing who knows what.

I like the idea of weeding out griefers as much as the next guy, but wouldn't the whole cadets-gonna-get-whitelisted thing pose a lore problem as well, next to the other problems? As far as I know, cadets are supposed to have a /year/ of cadetship, not a week. (Or seven shifts.) And I honestly doubt the practical part only lasts for a week. Plus, from what I've seen, especially since security is such a regularly played department nowadays, regulars take up the slots first. Most ahelps and combat logs that I get and are griefer-related usually point to an assistant as a griefer. I have seen some newer players come on, that broke minor rules like IC emojis, but none that actually grief as much, especially in the security department. On to the suggestion itself, Nanako, what if there is no HoS present? Cadets can do fuckall and get no recognition for it, only eyewitness accounts from mostly other cadets and maybe an officer or two. Can other heads of staff access it? Can the warden access it? The idea, at least to me, sounds like a glorified infinite guest pass that becomes permanent in future shifts. Besides that, what about infiltrator antag actions, like changelings? One absorbed cadet can fuck up the entire system, by the looks of it. Or an identity-changed wizard. This system would only work on extended, where people have the time to show they can handle the job instead of dealing with threats where people only focus on the threat instead of the cadet's performance. The idea is in the right place, but the execution seems quite sloppy.

@Skull132 Well, Skull, third time's the charm, right? Plus, it basically exists already, just not as standard setup.

@Bygonehero Alright, thanks. Yeah, but that won't do any good if the idea doesn't go through in the first place. That's why I'm advertising this each round. @MrSmooooth I sent a PM to Jackboot with a link to this post, hope he can maybe clear up a few things and falls for the idea. Hopefully he can answer those things. As for the race question, tajara/unathi/etc. can inject themselves with the stuff too, so it should be it's own species, as their entire biological makeup is different.

@Bygonehero I'm open for feedback, but I'm not sure that qualifies as feedback. Please don't try to meme in here, I'm serious about this.

@Nanako They'd add things in the same way Tajara, Unathi, Vaurcae, etc. add things to the game. None of those are really needed for the game, yet they're there anyway. This isn't much different. As for the lore thing, I think I'll try to work together with some lore people on that. The coding should already be partially done, as you can become slime people in the game already. Should cut off a lot of work.

@MagnificentMelkior As far as I understand it, races aren't whitelisted for rarity, but the ability to RP said race. Same goes for slime people. More afraid of cold areas, staying clear of the pool, fear when people rush over with an extinguisher. Cloning/reviving them could be made differently too, like injecting the core with plasma revives them instead of cryoing them. That kind of thing. Not a whitelist for the rarity.

@Mofo1995 Like I said, I haven't thought out the specifics yet. You could make a new form that, when signed and approved, may net you an injection to become that new species. Nanotrasen could get a monopoly on it, either getting people to pay hefty sums of money for it or offering them a binding contract to work for them for so many years to become a slime person. Of course it's going to be advertised with lots of positives. It's not entirely impossible to create a bit of lore around it.

@canon35 Getting turned into a slime person is less a gene mod and more a straight up mutation. Gene mods don't remove your organs and replace your heart with something else in a single second, while simultaneously transforming all your flesh (and I assume bones) into slime in that same second. And the things being temporary can also be proven moot. The science department has to, every single shift, research all technologies from zero to max again, innovating with stuff that... Lies ready and waiting for use on Odin. So why should gene mods and/or mutations be temporary like that? I'll buy people getting reverted, but temporaryness... Not so much. @Fire and Glory Initially of course not, but how long has xenobiology been around for? At least a decade or two, I'd wager. Enough time for people to get turned into slime people, get experimented on and be deemed still sentient people. By the point in time we're currently in, slime people are hardly curious anymore. Nearly every RD and every xenobiologist on station knows what a green slime extract does. They even know how to make the injection completely safe. Also, if NT was to let the slime people work for them, they would obviously first put it on grand news, having "made" a new species and everything. Heck, signing up to become a slime person isn't even irreversible with all the genetics around. They would obviously have studied them for a long time before letting them on the station.

@Carver As a counter-argument, "the strictly-better" species already exists in IPCs. To the cold and water thing, I'm going off the current mechanics, not those " back in the day." You being terrified, well, that's personal, I suppose. Maybe some fears are taken away when I say that most things slime girls are used for are forbidden on the server.