Re-enabling IPCs to be allowed into the Cult with changes.

[Scheveningen]

If you're insistent that I drop the argument that IPCs shouldn't be cult because of roleplay reasons in addition to mechanical ones, then fine, I will use the argument against them in regards to their inherent mechanics and why they make worse cultists than literally anyone else.

They cannot use blood magic, mechanically, without slowly killing themselves and being a gigantic liability to the entire cult for not being able to self-heal. They are not merely suboptimal, they are outright unplayable due to their lack of a healing factor compared to the other races that do have self-healing and sustain just well enough in cult to be viable. I went over this in the last thread and none of the thread's detractors decided to address that point in the slightest, as if it went over their heads.

IPCs, prior to the PR that was pushed way too soon to master, were mechanically useless in cult. Every point of damage they took from writing runes or using said runes added up. Cable coil is a limited resource and is quickly expended, at more extreme burn damage amounts, the IPC requires robotic surgery to fix.

All of the biological races played cult out just fine. They healed off the burn in a minute or so. IPCs did not, and still do not.

Now, if IPCs got snowflake code written for them that turned them into Robo-Cultists that had a unique resource to cast dark magic with which was also slightly distinct from what bioform cultists can do, that would be epic. Both in the mechanical "rule of cool" sense and in the "wow this shit is badass and it makes sense" category.

[Chada1]

What's most important to me is just re-enabling them for Cult with fewer mechanical hiccups, I also don't want them to be Better Cultists, just Not Literal Deadweight Cultists. I just want them to be able to be Cultists and not murderize themselves doing what everyone else tries to do. The blood runes being removed is purely a compromise to stop them from literally killing themselves with magic, but the intention isn't to make them Better Cultists and it was never intended to give them an advantage over the other Cult members. Weight that as you like. The idea is to reach a middleground where they can be Cultists without outshining or hindering the other Cult members, and yet still aren't much more powerful than them. Any changes, even if they were brand new, need to be reasonable and balanced in regards to the other Cultmembers.

[Kaed]

However you want to spin it, I'm not obligated to invite a machine to the cult instead of destroying them so they don't terminator me for trying, or later screw us over by being an unreliable cultist. What you claim makes interesting scenarios evokes complete disinterest in me, and your hypothetical pragmatic cultist is unlikely to apply to any of my 100% unathi roster who would feel disgust at the idea of inviting a soulless automaton to their cult.

And I still persist that we need to do more with this than apply a hacky patch and tell IPCs to just deal with it as part of the challenge.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Guest

[Scheveningen]

What's most important to me is just re-enabling them for Cult with fewer mechanical hiccups, I also don't want them to be Better Cultists, just Not Literal Deadweight Cultists. I just want them to be able to be Cultists and not murderize themselves doing what everyone else tries to do. The blood runes being removed is purely a compromise to stop them from literally killing themselves with magic, but the intention isn't to make them Better Cultists and it was never intended to give them an advantage over the other Cult members. Weight that as you like. The idea is to reach a middleground where they can be Cultists without outshining or hindering the other Cult members, and yet still aren't much more powerful than them. Any changes, even if they were brand new, need to be reasonable and balanced in regards to the other Cultmembers.

 

They don't need to be better. Just cool, distinct in their way of being a corruption of existence while also making a bit of sense in how they do it, rather than nonsense as they were/are.

[Chada1]

What's most important to me is just re-enabling them for Cult with fewer mechanical hiccups, I also don't want them to be Better Cultists, just Not Literal Deadweight Cultists. I just want them to be able to be Cultists and not murderize themselves doing what everyone else tries to do. The blood runes being removed is purely a compromise to stop them from literally killing themselves with magic, but the intention isn't to make them Better Cultists and it was never intended to give them an advantage over the other Cult members. Weight that as you like. The idea is to reach a middleground where they can be Cultists without outshining or hindering the other Cult members, and yet still aren't much more powerful than them. Any changes, even if they were brand new, need to be reasonable and balanced in regards to the other Cultmembers.

 

They don't need to be better. Just cool, distinct in their way of being a corruption of existence while also making a bit of sense in how they do it, rather than nonsense as they were/are.

If you wanted to write up something (I mean a concept, not code) and pass it to Poze, he might do it.

[Scheveningen]

I'll see what I can think up.

[LanceLynxx]

Unpopular opinion:

If it doesn't bleed, it doesn't belong in a cult that uses blood to perform mystical feats.

People choose to play a non-organic race. This has pros and cons. This is one of them.

[Pacmandevil]

Implying that a god of blood who makes non-organic mystical constructs can't control a bucket of bolts is a shitty meme, but regardless.

The issue of spawning IPCs as cult can be fixed by making it so IPCs simply can't be roundstart cultists, it's a really easy fix.

[LanceLynxx]

Implying that a god of blood who makes non-organic mystical constructs can't control a bucket of bolts is a shitty meme, but regardless.

 

Nar'Sie is now a Malware?

EDIT: AFAIK constructs don't leak oil or become piles of debri when destroyed. Some even become ectoplasm or ashes.

[Kaed]

Implying that a god of blood who makes non-organic mystical constructs can't control a bucket of bolts is a shitty meme, but regardless.

The issue of spawning IPCs as cult can be fixed by making it so IPCs simply can't be roundstart cultists, it's a really easy fix.

 

Constructs are powered by an imprisoned soul and aren't even made of metal, because they break apart into ectoplasm. They are entirely different from synthetics. This is not an analog, it's you forcing a weak link that doesn't really exist. There's no meme, it's just you willfully ignoring our arguments.

[Pacmandevil]

/mob/living/simple_animal/construct/examine(mob/user)
..(user)
var/msg = "<span cass='info'>*---------*\nThis is \icon[src] \a <EM>[src]</EM>!\n"
if (src.health < src.maxHealth)
	msg += "<span class='warning'>"
	if (src.health >= src.maxHealth/2)
		msg += "It looks slightly dented.\n"
	else
		msg += "<B>It looks severely dented!</B>\n"
	msg += "</span>"
msg += "*---------*</span>"

 

It's rather blatent that they're made of metal, Kaed.

[Pacmandevil]

As an addition, their metallic/mechanical nature is reflected in the descriptions of them.

[Scheveningen]

Note that my arguments for whatever I've mentioned are my own. It is fine if people take what I personally say with a grain of salt. I'm not gonna pretend the bandwagon has any more of a powerful stance just because it's the most outspoken/loudly broadcasted opinion. Just making that clear.

They're constructs powered by souls, Pacman, that code snippet proves little beyond the obvious. A knight's plate armor can be dented by repeated force and you can also achieve the same effect by taking a baseball bat to someone's skull IRL with sufficient enough force applied multiple times, to create dents. Don't believe me? There are photos on the internet of such things. They turn the body captured by a soulstone to literal ash, in addition. It doesn't seem to just capture the soul, there's pretty clear indication what's going on there.

[Pacmandevil]

Yeah - that wasn't the point I was making. Kaed was implying they weren't even made out of metal, which is just flat out misleading.

[Saudus]

I really don't think constructs are good analogues with synthetics. Even if they're both made of metal (momentarily disregarding the fact that they turn into other stuff than metal when dead which kinda says they aren't metal or the metal gets transformed), they're less like each other than plants and animals.

Ok, lets start to get to work on compromises.

At least until made much more viable cultists, do we agree they should be kept out of round start cult?

Do we agree that cultified synthetics should not draw runes?

Do we agree that they (and maybe organics with synthetic parts) should be made invulnerable/resistant to cult rune/talisman emp?

Should soul stones work or not on them?

[Itanimulli]

However you want to spin it, I'm not obligated to invite a machine to the cult instead of destroying them so they don't terminator me for trying, or later screw us over by being an unreliable cultist. What you claim makes interesting scenarios evokes complete disinterest in me, and your hypothetical pragmatic cultist is unlikely to apply to any of my 100% unathi roster who would feel disgust at the idea of inviting a soulless automaton to their cult.

And I still persist that we need to do more with this than apply a hacky patch and tell IPCs to just deal with it as part of the challenge.

 

So you've got a 100% lizard roster and are trying to decide the fate of an entire race you don't play for an entire round-type?

Wow. Please don't.

Anyhow, can someone give me an example of a point in time in which a species-whitlisted cultie just killed themselves?

Is everyone ignoring that it's very easy to get nanopaste?

Why is the analogue of constructs to synthetics not a good one? The constructs are synthetic. Unnatural. Made by something other than nature.

The more you try and defend taking them out, the less I'd like to concede to any changes, because before, I've NEVER had an issue with being an IPC cultist unless another player was simply bad at the cult round. As in running through the halls roundstart with armor on attacking the crew bad.

[Kaed]

The more you try and defend taking them out, the less I'd like to concede to any changes, because before, I've NEVER had an issue with being an IPC cultist unless another player was simply bad at the cult round. As in running through the halls roundstart with armor on attacking the crew bad.

 

Are you the one making this game update? If you aren't, your willingness to concede to changes means about as much my desire to keep them out of the cult without significant changes.

Nor do I have to play an IPC to have reservations about their inclusion in a round type. I do not need a personal stake in a matter to have feelings about it. If I did play an IPC, I would not want to be convertable with the state of things as they currently are. I could even posit that as an IPC player yourself, you have a strong-prebuilt bias towards wanting to be included because changes personally affect you.

But I'll reiterate my points because things have gotten confused over a long thread

-I don't think we should be introducing a crippled variant of IPC cultists just to give them a participation credit. 'Just get a nanopaste' is a stopgap, not a solution, just like this idea. You don't tell someone who gets smashed in a door every time they walk through it to just grab a medkit, you fix the door or get rid of it.

-I think if they are allowed into the cult, there should be significant changes to their mechanics so they can fully function without having to work around stupid problems inherent to just inserting them as-is in the role without caring about the difficulties involved.

[Sebbe]

As i suggested before, allow IPC's to act as semi-artificers. Acting more as a builder than the grab + convert humans do. The different races already have strong plusses and minuses in cult mode alone. Give IPC's their own role instead of shooting them in the leg with a shotgun and writing it off as an "improvement".

This or keep them out, they are IPC's, why would they convert at all considering THEY HAVE NO FEELINGS OR OBLIGATION TO BE RELIGIOUS. Honestly if IPC's can be converted why not borgs?

[Itanimulli]

The more you try and defend taking them out, the less I'd like to concede to any changes, because before, I've NEVER had an issue with being an IPC cultist unless another player was simply bad at the cult round. As in running through the halls roundstart with armor on attacking the crew bad.

 

I could even posit that as an IPC player yourself, you have a strong-prebuilt bias towards wanting to be included because changes personally affect you.

 

Yes that is the point. Consider the effect on other players. You make PRs all the time because of the personal opinions that you craft from situations that affect you.

[Chada1]

This or keep them out, they are IPC's, why would they convert at all considering THEY HAVE NO FEELINGS OR OBLIGATION TO BE RELIGIOUS. Honestly if IPC's can be converted why not borgs?

I've already given multiple solid reasonings for why 'borgs are immune. For the same reason Loyalty implants don't allow conversion-- because even if Cultists did 'convert' a 'borg, they would reset to their old lawset. IPCs who have loyalty programming are still immune just like 'borgs are, IPCs without it are compromiseable. 'Borgs and IPCs are not the same and comparing them is not a flawless comparison, it's a very rough one.

The idea of giving IPCs similar abilities to Constructs is neat, and i'd support that.

[Itanimulli]

As i suggested before, allow IPC's to act as semi-artificers. Acting more as a builder than the grab + convert humans do. The different races already have strong plusses and minuses in cult mode alone. Give IPC's their own role instead of shooting them in the leg with a shotgun and writing it off as an "improvement".

This or keep them out, they are IPC's, why would they convert at all considering THEY HAVE NO FEELINGS OR OBLIGATION TO BE RELIGIOUS. Honestly if IPC's can be converted why not borgs?

 

I'm thinking it's more along the idea of free thought. If something is able to change it's mind, it'd be easier to manipulate.

With IPCs, much like converted athiests, you're giving them something to serve, not giving them a sermon.

With borgs, you're essentially trying to argue with a reporter. Sure, you can bring up valid points, but in the end they're just there to read off the questions they were told to read off to you.

Well, enough with disagreements.

I support the artificer idea

Branching off from that: perhaps go as far as to have each subspecies be a different type of construct. G2 Juggernaut memes. Just a thought.

[PoZe]

Few notes: it seems like the discussion grew into 13 pages, yet we have posts coming mostly from same people, only once in a while someone else would try to say their opinion to only be yelled at by several people who most likely live in this thread. When you say that someone ignores your argument it doesn't mean they do. Arguments can be valid, invalid, sound and unsound. Now a valid argument might not be sound, the reason why someone might not accept it.

Please note again - I am the one who is making code change, some people confuse others and attack them as if they are the one who are coding changes. True, I am not as active in this thread as everyone else, but I still check on it and reply my opinion.

First of all about IPCs taking rune damage, they are not allowed to draw runes in my PR, the only damage they take is from using talisman(as it contains blood already). I might take that damage as well. Problem of self-healing is the main feature of race they play, each race has its advantage. We do not see cult to be comprised of Dionea mostly, even though they regenerate fast. Potentially if desirable I can add rune that would heal cultist IPCs, again it would have to be drawn by organics, making IPCs depend on someone to heal themselves.

Another note: I have been thinking to make cult armor not to cause IPC to overheat as well.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Changed my mind. Good changes. Lack of overheating is fair!

[Sebbe]

This or keep them out, they are IPC's, why would they convert at all considering THEY HAVE NO FEELINGS OR OBLIGATION TO BE RELIGIOUS. Honestly if IPC's can be converted why not borgs?

I've already given multiple solid reasonings for why 'borgs are immune. For the same reason Loyalty implants don't allow conversion-- because even if Cultists did 'convert' a 'borg, they would reset to their old lawset. IPCs who have loyalty programming are still immune just like 'borgs are, IPCs without it are compromiseable. 'Borgs and IPCs are not the same and comparing them is not a flawless comparison, it's a very rough one.

The idea of giving IPCs similar abilities to Constructs is neat, and i'd support that.

 

Okay I can live with that explanation.

Let's build on the construct idea (literally) and give IPC's their respective strength and keep their weakness. It makes sense that a semi-soulless being can serve the cult to some extent, but not at the same level as a normal creature can.

[Mogelix]

+1 IMO, I've logged back in and this sent me way back to that time where I was in a special event with some sort of cultist planet, then somehow, Noir became a cultist. I probably pissed myself, not because I was scared he would fly around a corner and headgib me, but because the RP had me watching my back IRL. I think we should have cultist IPCs because they open up so much cool new RP opportunities. I think it's a necessity to sometimes break established logic for the sake of cool moments like this. IPCs are naturally cool antags, so I've gotta support this, It's better then another science cult round. I think IPCs should be modifiable, so one hand acts as a constructesque 'building hand', and the other can hold a weapon. I feel like we're overthinking this, we don't have to turn their oil into blood, and make them function like downgraded human cultists, we should overhaul the entire interaction of synthetics with mystic beings.