Re-enabling IPCs to be allowed into the Cult with changes.

[PoZe]

If you make Cult IPC's immune to their own AOE EMP (which I imagine it'd be a bitch to code) then I am all for it. As is, it's fucking irritating being a Cult IPC because everybody around you is locked off from practically their most powerful weapon in order to keep you alive. It's ridiculous.

 

Just a note: I have already made all necessary code changes and tested them. Code is ready and waiting for an approval

[PoZe]

Like Schev is saying, the majority of arguments for IPCs can be summed up as handwaving reasons why they should be included (it's magic lol), rather than applying any kind of logic or balance to the situation.

There's no actual reason WHY IPCs should be included in this. They lack many essential vital properties that living creatures with blood and souls have. What you are providing is JUSTIFICATION for why they can be cultists. Why would Nar'sie expend the effort to convert all the oil of a synthetic being into blood when, by the logic of this revision, they can't even function as a full cultist and are fundamentally crippled in utility? It would be like Nanotrasen hiring a blind and paraplegic person but giving them an expensive mechanical hoverchair and proximity alert system to help them not run into walls. The cult of the geometer is not an affirmative action organization recruiting incompatible workers out of pity. They're here to get shit done.

The real reason is this: No one has coded it out until now, and there was a very valid reason for it being coded out, narratively speaking.

It's much more appealing to have some things on the station that are just outside supernatural events than invent reasons to shoehorn them in.

 

Your suggestion is to exclude the 50-60% of station most favorite species from having fun.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Guest

[Chada1]

The 'Just a robot' line of thought is outright incorrect, IPCs are sentient beings (And canonically have souls) unless roleplayed otherwise. And Nar'sie is entirely capable of twisting metal and machines to their bidding, there is no reason even before being pulled into our realm that they couldn't also twist the mind of a mechanical being. There are in-lore reasonings for why Station-bounds would be immune and for why LI's would block it. The original suggestion for their removal from Cult was not because it was unbelievable, it was due to underlying problems with how their gameplay synchronized with the gamemode, that is what this is meant to fix. And the original suggestion certainly wasn't intended to remove them from Wizard, it specifically said so in the text wall. This coming from someone who plays 'Just a robot'

[LanceLynxx]

The 'Just a robot' line of thought is outright incorrect, IPCs are sentient beings (And canonically have souls) unless roleplayed otherwise.

 

Can you point me to where I can find such information?

Wiki states "Ultimately they are robotic in nature" and "The book definition of an android is ‘an automaton designed to mimic human life.’ This is applicable to today’s androids"

So what gives?

[Chada1]

The 'Just a robot' line of thought is outright incorrect, IPCs are sentient beings (And canonically have souls) unless roleplayed otherwise.

 

Can you point me to where I can find such information?

Wiki states "Ultimately they are robotic in nature" and "The book definition of an android is ‘an automaton designed to mimic human life.’ This is applicable to today’s androids"

So what gives?

Ask Cake and multiple other people. They're the ones who spread this information. As for them having souls, what do you think the players' ghost is? That's canon. Why do you think soulstones work on them? That's canon.

Being robotic in nature and being 'Just a robot' are not the same thing. Beepsky is just a robot. The robot alt-title for 'borgs is 'Just a robot'. IPCs are not just a robot. They are sentient.

[Asheram]

The 'Just a robot' line of thought is outright incorrect, IPCs are sentient beings (And canonically have souls) unless roleplayed otherwise.

 

Can you point me to where I can find such information?

Wiki states "Ultimately they are robotic in nature" and "The book definition of an android is ‘an automaton designed to mimic human life.’ This is applicable to today’s androids"

So what gives?

Ask Cake and multiple other people. They're the ones who spread this information. As for them having souls, what do you think the players' ghost is? That's canon. Why do you think soulstones work on them? That's canon.

Being robotic in nature and being 'Just a robot' are not the same thing. Beepsky is just a robot. The robot alt-title for 'borgs is 'Just a robot'. IPCs are not just a robot. They are sentient.

We're having a similar discussion over in the "Synthetic policies and regulations" thread over on the regulation suggestion forum.

Cake has said they'll soon come back with an answer.

[Chada1]

The main difference [mention]Asheram[/mention] is that policy suggestion is asking for the regulations to represent how people in the setting treat them, it isn't how they are OOCly, it's how people see them and treat them ICly. IC perspectives and OOC perspectives are not the same thing.

It's perfectly reasonable ICly for humans to view them as inanimate objects, with a fake sentience, but that is only an IC stance. OOCly, they are sentient.

[Asheram]

The main difference @Asheram is that policy suggestion is asking for the regulations to represent how people in the setting treat them, it isn't how they are OOCly, it's how people see them and treat them ICly. IC perspectives and OOC perspectives are not the same thing.

It's perfectly reasonable ICly for humans to view them as inanimate objects, with a fake sentience, but that is only an IC stance. OOCly, they are sentient.

Any official word is better than hearsay, which is the matter of IPC souls for the moment.

Heck, if IPC's have souls then Cyborgs definitely have souls.

[Chada1]

The main difference @Asheram is that policy suggestion is asking for the regulations to represent how people in the setting treat them, it isn't how they are OOCly, it's how people see them and treat them ICly. IC perspectives and OOC perspectives are not the same thing.

It's perfectly reasonable ICly for humans to view them as inanimate objects, with a fake sentience, but that is only an IC stance. OOCly, they are sentient.

Any official word is better than hearsay, which is the matter of IPC souls for the moment.

Heck, if IPC's have souls then Cyborgs definitely have souls.

Yes, they do, what's the point?

[Asheram]

The main difference @Asheram is that policy suggestion is asking for the regulations to represent how people in the setting treat them, it isn't how they are OOCly, it's how people see them and treat them ICly. IC perspectives and OOC perspectives are not the same thing.

It's perfectly reasonable ICly for humans to view them as inanimate objects, with a fake sentience, but that is only an IC stance. OOCly, they are sentient.

Any official word is better than hearsay, which is the matter of IPC souls for the moment.

Heck, if IPC's have souls then Cyborgs definitely have souls.

Yes, they do, what's the point?

Going to need a proper citation on this, and not just from the fact that cyborgs can ghost.

[Chada1]

Any official word is better than hearsay, which is the matter of IPC souls for the moment.

Heck, if IPC's have souls then Cyborgs definitely have souls.

Yes, they do, what's the point?

Going to need a proper citation on this, and not just from the fact that cyborgs can ghost.

Overall it's irrelevant to the suggestion. All mechanics point to them having souls. This suggestion isn't about 'borgs and people need to stop trying to make it about them. IPCs are not 'borgs. Magic will not be explained in Lore.

[Asheram]

Yes, they do, what's the point?

Going to need a proper citation on this, and not just from the fact that cyborgs can ghost.

Overall it's irrelevant to the suggestion. All mechanics point to them having souls. This suggestion isn't about 'borgs and people need to stop trying to make it about them. IPCs are not 'borgs. Magic will not be explained in Lore.

Then let's sit down and wait for official word on souls instead of hearsay.

[Chada1]

Going to need a proper citation on this, and not just from the fact that cyborgs can ghost.

Overall it's irrelevant to the suggestion. All mechanics point to them having souls. This suggestion isn't about 'borgs and people need to stop trying to make it about them. IPCs are not 'borgs. Magic will not be explained in Lore.

Then let's sit down and wait for official word on souls instead of hearsay.

Fair enough, i'm fine with waiting for official word before continuing that line of argument. However, Even now, with IPCs not allowed to join the Cult, you realise 'Soulstones' can capture an IPC, right?

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

If IPC's are a detriment to the cult, then all I will be able to do with them is kill them as efficiently as possible so they do not threaten the cult. If they can join the cult but not do anything, then they don't get to actually play the game mode. This is no fair to IPC players.

[Chada1]

If IPC's are a detriment to the cult, then all I will be able to do with them is kill them as efficiently as possible so they do not threaten the cult. If they can join the cult but not do anything, then they don't get to actually play the game mode. This is no fair to IPC players.

 

As it stands, they have been entirely removed from being able to be Cultists. They can only be Soulstoned and turned to Constructs. This merely fixes the problems that are inherent with them in the mode, such as making them immune to the Cults EMP that currently kills them.

There's no way you can spin that as a negative, it's one of the main reasons IPCs aren't able to efficiently play as Antagonists in the gamemode. The inability to create runes is a compromise to stop them from effectively killing themselves with spells, as currently they either have to go to the Roboticist or depend heavily on other Cultists to repair them as they do blood magic. Do you have any other ideas?

Doing nothing leaves them as completely excluded from being Cultists, making these changes enables them to be Cultists but also addresses what makes them so dependant on other Cultists just to survive. As it stands, it's a detriment to the Cult because they effectively kill themselves, and to remove the damage they sustain from blood magic would be giving an unfair advantage to them. I think it's arguably less fair to have them forced to play as Constructs and nothing else.

[Scheveningen]

Do you have any other ideas?

 

Well, I have an idea, but it requires code work, sprite work and other fluff tack-ons/what have you. So overall nothing can be done in the short term besides the compromise you provided in the OP.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

With your explanation I see the reasoning and the justifications. It might be annoying to IPC players to be forced to be constructs or baggage.

[LanceLynxx]

Ask Cake and multiple other people. They're the ones who spread this information. As for them having souls, what do you think the players' ghost is? That's canon. Why do you think soulstones work on them? That's canon.

 

Lore follows mechanics, true. That can be fixed by removing soul-capturing from IPCs.

Ghosts are just out-of-round players. It's an OOC mechanic.

EXCEPT FOR: Cult interactions, in which ghosts are actually used as IC mechanics. but that's an antag-round-related thing.

Otherwise even pAIs, mice, and drones have souls.

 

Being robotic in nature and being 'Just a robot' are not the same thing. Beepsky is just a robot. The robot alt-title for 'borgs is 'Just a robot'. IPCs are not just a robot. They are sentient.

 

IPCs are not sentient. They do not have feelings or experience things subjectively on their own accord, they emulate sentience and use only cause and effect to decide actions, according to the assigned utilon values.

They are pre-programmed, according to their own wiki lore, and cannot change utilon values imprinted on them by the programmer.

[Chada1]

IPCs are not sentient. They do not have feelings or experience things subjectively on their own accord, they emulate sentience and use only cause and effect to decide actions, according to the assigned utilon values.

They are pre-programmed, according to their own wiki lore, and cannot change utilon values imprinted on them by the programmer.

 

Downright incorrect. They emulate Emotion, they are free-thinking sentient entities. The Utilon system is not hardcoded and the IPC player can choose to assign values as they see fit, it would be a creative stonewall if they weren't able to and IPCs would not be capable of character development.

[LanceLynxx]

Downright incorrect. They emulate Emotion, they are free-thinking sentient entities.

 

erm

https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=Positronic_Brain#Morality_Core

Emotion Emulator

One of the most complex of the software modules, these emulate sentient emotions to varying degrees of success and skill.

 

And then I quote the definition of Sentience from Merriam-Webster

2. feeling or sensation as distinguished from perception and thought

 

So therefore, emulating sentient emotions pretty much means that a synthetic can only simulate sentience, since it cannot have feelings nor sensations.

Also that has nothing to do with free-thought.

Which they also do not possess, since they follow whatever program was designed. As stated previously, they cannot change their utilon values on their own, thus, they cannot change their way of analysing the world around them, in a subjective manner, nor create their own set of goals (unless they are made to ultimately achieve what they were programmed to do, in which case this is "the end justifies the means")

[Chada1]

That isn't how it works. Robots are the ones that run pre-scripted programs. Not IPCs, IPCs are capable of complex thought and have the ability of forming their own opinions and even personality through experience. You can speak to Cake about it, I can even post excerpts from me speaking to them. Emotion by no means defines sentience in this situation, the IPC wiki page confirms them as sentient.

 

They are universally not subject to sentience tests and are free to pursue freedom, sharing two prerequisites with bounds with two unique. These prerequisites involve the following universally.

The IPC in question having paid its own cost off in full ten times over.

The IPC in question not malfunctioning in any, way, shape or form that would externally influence its decision.

The IPC in question being at least one year of age.

The IPC in question demonstrating some sort of ability to comply with societal functions.

This is for the ones purchasing their freedom.

Maybe sentience isn't the correct word, Sapience is. IPCs are canonically sapient and capable of complex thought. It's the entire boon of Positronic Brains. Otherwise, they'd have stuck to MMIs and Robotic circuits.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Guest

[Sytic]

The whole "synthetic conflict" is based on "Do they have emotions? Do they have sentience?" Or, as ye olde phrase goes, "Do robots dream of electric sheep?". The point is not to answer it to provide some cool conflicts of opinions to be explored on the server.

But they do have souls. That's, like, canon dude.

[LanceLynxx]

That isn't how it works. Robots are the ones that run pre-scripted programs. Not IPCs, IPCs are capable of complex thought and have the ability of forming their own opinions and even personality through experience. You can speak to Cake about it, I can even post excerpts from me speaking to them. Emotion by no means defines sentience in this situation, the IPC wiki page confirms them as sentient.

 

They are universally not subject to sentience tests and are free to pursue freedom, sharing two prerequisites with bounds with two unique. These prerequisites involve the following universally.

The IPC in question having paid its own cost off in full ten times over.

The IPC in question not malfunctioning in any, way, shape or form that would externally influence its decision.

The IPC in question being at least one year of age.

The IPC in question demonstrating some sort of ability to comply with societal functions.

 

Allow me to make a quick analogy

IPCs are positronic brains in a chassis. A computer's casing.

Positronic Brains are processing units made of machine parts. A computer's CPU.

And computer hardware doesn't do anything on its own without programs. An android wouldn't magically create sentience just for being put together.

They can form their personality through experience, but it would quite literally be following laws or directives. Otherwise, the personality is pre-programmed.

Personality Emulator

Similar to the Emotion Emulator, this allows synthetics to portray levels of personality often in conjunction with emotions. Whilst synthetics may develop personalities without one, they will be bland and normally will revolve around following laws/directives.

 

They are not subject to sentience tests, true.

That doesn't prove they are sentient. Just means they don't have to run tests.

They still only emulate sentience, as per what is written on the wiki.

[Asheram]

But they do have souls. That's, like, canon dude.

Apologies, but unless we can get a proper citation or a lore writer in here to state that as fact then I'm afraid it doesn't really count as more than hearsay.

[Chada1]

That isn't how it works. Robots are the ones that run pre-scripted programs. Not IPCs, IPCs are capable of complex thought and have the ability of forming their own opinions and even personality through experience. You can speak to Cake about it, I can even post excerpts from me speaking to them. Emotion by no means defines sentience in this situation, the IPC wiki page confirms them as sentient.

 

They are universally not subject to sentience tests and are free to pursue freedom, sharing two prerequisites with bounds with two unique. These prerequisites involve the following universally.

The IPC in question having paid its own cost off in full ten times over.

The IPC in question not malfunctioning in any, way, shape or form that would externally influence its decision.

The IPC in question being at least one year of age.

The IPC in question demonstrating some sort of ability to comply with societal functions.

 

Allow me to make a quick analogy

IPCs are positronic brains in a chassis. A computer's casing.

Positronic Brains are processing units made of machine parts. A computer's CPU.

And computer hardware doesn't do anything on its own without programs. An android wouldn't magically create sentience just for being put together.

They can form their personality through experience, but it would quite literally be following laws or directives. Otherwise, the personality is pre-programmed.

Personality Emulator

Similar to the Emotion Emulator, this allows synthetics to portray levels of personality often in conjunction with emotions. Whilst synthetics may develop personalities without one, they will be bland and normally will revolve around following laws/directives.

 

They are not subject to sentience tests, true.

That doesn't prove they are sentient. Just means they don't have to run tests.

They still only emulate sentience, as per what is written on the wiki.

 

You are utterly entirely wrong. That page you're looking at is under active development if you will look at the top of it. Positronic Brains do not conform to real world science as the actual concept is not possible. They may be coded to act a certain way, but they are completely, 100%, capable of diverging from that direction and forming an entirely new, unique personality, not unlike a person raised to think a certain way realising why they shouldn't. The only difference is they would base their divergency off of logical analysis instead of emotion. They are entirely sapient and entirely capable of going beyond their intended purpose. This of course, depends on the player and their character. There are IPCs who lean towards Robotic, but those are not the norm, stop treating like it is. Only Robots (The Cyborg Alt-title) are forced to run pre-programmed coding and not capable of free-thought, IPC coding and decisionmaking can be original and decided on by the IPC itself.